Loads and Fatigue

[layzie 33,796]

For a team that plays as taxing a game style as us I think there's probably something to this. The whole game plan relies on pressure which means bringing the same effort every bloody week. It's not just one or two many players look gassed. 

Edited July 25, 2021 by layzie

[Engorged Onion 10,215]

3 minutes ago, layzie said:

For a team that plays as taxing a game style as us I think there's probably something to this. The whole game plan relies on pressure which means bringing the same effort every bloody week. It's not just one or two many players look gassed. 

To be the best you’ve got to pressure. No if’s or buts. 

And Is it realistic that over an 8 month (ostensibly 11 months) training period, that essentially 22 games in a row that ‘pressure’ will be dialed up?

[layzie 33,796]

1 minute ago, Engorged Onion said:

To be the best you’ve got to pressure. No if’s or buts. 

And Is it realistic that over an 8 month (ostensibly 11 months) training period, that essentially 22 games in a row that ‘pressure’ will be dialed up?

That's right EO, it's not realistic. Its a huge ask especially if these reported loads are in place. Don't know what the answer is but hopefully they do. 

[binman 42,919]

1 hour ago, Engorged Onion said:

Whilst Burgess is known for pushing the envelope, it would be arrogance on his behalf after a quarter of a century in the business to continue a strategy that on evidence hasn’t worked. 
 

Fatigue , wouldn’t be Burgess pushing the envelope on top of a periodisation process - that just ignoring best practice.

We are where we are, because we are where we are on the schedule. 

Fair enough.

Then lets say we are doing the same sort of loading than other teams.

We have a young team. Five of our best 22 are 21 or under (rivers, kozzie, jordon, jackson and petty)

And we have a physically demanding, which is more taxing than say the cats, Eagles and Lions, who hold the ball, chip it around and play slow a lot

 And all three of those teams have much older teams.

Add to that the decision not to rest players and logic suggests that the combination of a young list and ballistic game plan will lead to fatigue.

On not resting players, particularly the young players, it seems a curios decision but Burgess is regarded as the best in the business so I'll back him in to have it all planned to the minute.

 

[Skuit 10,031]

3 hours ago, Engorged Onion said:

My take.

"There is a vibe though that we are running on the spot.

I'd argue it s clearly about training and game day loads, and as suggested, all teams in finals contention will be doing it. 

The difficulty for us and other Victorian teams is the lack of second tier competition, so where do we get to put those players who still need to have match fitness, but at a reduced level. This dilemma, impacts performance for obvious reasons. 

But with an eye on 4-5 weeks away - what is a Football department to do.  Do you make every post a winner until september, with the eventuality that you haven't given your team the best opportunity FOR september. Or do you mitigate as much as possible, and hope the talents and systems will get you a top 4 slot, so that you're cherry ripe for september, but you may be in a position where you don't have a double chance.

The 22 rounds are just the hors d'oeuvre's, and I would prefer my team to be pretty [censored] hungry for the main course in September,  when fitness on dry (er) tracks will be at a premium.

 

ps... what @Skuitsaid.

I don't want out you or profession EO, but have you ever dealt with anything like this before? We've stepped up to most challenges this year and have spent most of it on a riding high narrative. I have no emotion for any of these matches anymore - not sure how you would get the players up. Who would have thought that being on top of the ladder is so boring. 

[Engorged Onion 10,215]

38 minutes ago, Skuit said:

I don't want out you or profession EO, but have you ever dealt with anything like this before? We've stepped up to most challenges this year and have spent most of it on a riding high narrative. I have no emotion for any of these matches anymore - not sure how you would get the players up. Who would have thought that being on top of the ladder is so boring. 

I'll lead off with that my belief is that it is impossible to sustain 22 week's of form (be it as a team, or an individual) and then get into the 'real' season and maintain it. 

Thus, I'm not in favour of the notion that the players were down or not up yesterday - they made errors, [censored] it, so did the Dogs, they just converted.

Whilst some folk find Goodwin 'expressionless' in his conferences, the clue for us all is how he frames things. Irrespective of a win (he down plays it) or a loss (he also down plays it) because it's always about 'resetting for the week ahead'. For all of those in the ecosystem that is the AFL industry - it does not help to get emotional about the wins and losses... and that fact [censored] supporters to tears.

He isn't about pumping up players, or jumping on them, because if you teach players that you can only win when you feel good or confident, what happens to performance when you are not feeling good or confident, or fatigued? You move away from games plans, you play more insular (sure weve seen it from individuals this year) and it impedes performance.

And...how on earth would you feel on Grand Final Day in front of 100k... not sure about you... but I'd have a squeeky little bum.}

It's a time of high anxiety and high stress... and Goodwin drives the team (as do most coaches) from a position of knowing that this is the emotional landscape of football. Having to front up to it, is exhausting.

But it stands to reason that this has been our most consistent season in almost living memory. Some of the players are 5 years under his tutelage, others are 1, or 2 or 3. They're on a journey of psychological and physiological development.

As supporters we can find the language too corporate, too naff, too disconnected from what we traditionally want to hear (give em a rev up etc etc), but he is speaking the language of the eco-system of the club... well not just our club, its all clubs.

I'd argue its not about getting the players up , they know what their game plan is, they'll get themselves up...they weren't down yesterday either...

They were up against the Dogs, as it were... but if you count WINS as the only indicator of being 'up', then you're missing the bigger picture....and also being unrealistic and unfair on the playing group.

Loading, periodisation, whatever you want to call it, is real and it impacts on performance outcomes in the here and now, for the planning of the future.

 

Edited July 25, 2021 by Engorged Onion

[D4Life 2,469]

Malcolm Blight said  during the week a 16-6, 15-7 is a great season, the 19-3 or better will continue to be rare as with draft, salary cap etc. comp is getting closer!

So if you lose 5 it means you have to lose to someone, good or bad, seems that having beaten other teams in the 8 is more important. Look at Tigers, only year they didn’t win flag they had best home and away season, 18-4.

Supposedly we’ve been loading, so hopefully we can be ready for our best again come finals! Can’t say I’m overly confident after last 6 games, but if we can finish top 4, we should be good to give it our best. Also lack of injuries should help.

Fingers crossed the strategy works!!

[Kent 2,909]

9 hours ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

An interesting thought.

Is that because we haven't given the non 22+sub players chances at AFL to provide the depth or we just don't have the talent?  We've had chances to do the former via the medi sub or some judicious experimenting/resting here and there, so interested in your thoughts.

we haven't given them any opportunities because the coach is low iq and risk adverse.

[Grr-owl 1,219]

Reckon Binman nailed it. This week, if we don't come out and run over the Suns, Demonlanders could be forgiven for beginning to think the strategy might not have been optimal. Suns, WC, Crows.... a non-performance of our high energy style against which of these will prove critical?

[Dee*ceiving 1,674]

On 7/25/2021 at 10:45 AM, Pirlo said:

Doesn't take a genius to see that Jordon, Rivers, Jackson are exhausted and are being absolutely wasted playing at 50%.

Meanwhile Sparrow is sub every week and can't get a look in above JJ for a week or two.

Agree, missed the boat on this. In fairness I suspect the lack of a VFL competition for several weeks to assess form made it 'safer' to stick with the same 22 week in week out, but we are paying for it now. 

We needed to inject some older heads, Melksham, Jones, M Brown and a few of the youngsters, Sparrow, Bowey, Bedford, Lockhart strategically through the middle part of the season.  

[La Dee-vina Comedia 16,754]

On 7/25/2021 at 2:30 PM, Engorged Onion said:

This could be useful to wrap your head around, whilst debating the probability of whether training loads matter, if you're a dubious type of person, who thinks the performances are disgusting and pathetic and think Goodwin should be sacked, and you'd much prefer the relief of knowing your not going to make the finals as a supporter.

It's round 18 - here is a neat little graph - now if you're making finals - it's a pretty good template to run off. There wouldn't be too much variation from club to club, because clubs don't do that.

 

 

In relation to this content, and through worrying about people knocking my credentials,  I'll just say, I'm also coming from a place of knowledge of what happens, because I have it from numerous horses mouths who are fed crunchy digits from their employer(s)...

Are you able to expand on this graph more? For example, what does "volume" refer to? Also, there's no "technique" on the graph (and what does that mean anyway?) and where do the Easy, Medium and Hard come into it? Also, is the y-axis a percentage and if so, of what?

I find this stuff interesting but need to understand exactly what it purports to be saying.

[Engorged Onion 10,215]

4 minutes ago, La Dee-vina Comedia said:

Are you able to expand on this graph more? For example, what does "volume" refer to? Also, there's no "technique" on the graph (and what does that mean anyway?) and where do the Easy, Medium and Hard come into it? Also, is the y-axis a percentage and if so, of what?

I find this stuff interesting but need to understand exactly what it purports to be saying.

Hi, find attached a generic pdf from the web.

To be clear this is not my area of expertise in sport, but goes some way to explaining what is going on.

Volume = Time spent.

Technique = type training aerobically or anaerobically

Y axis = % of maximum for an individual.

This could also be useful

[Nairobi_Demon 335]

3 hours ago, Engorged Onion said:

Hi, find attached a generic pdf from the web.

To be clear this is not my area of expertise in sport, but goes some way to explaining what is going on.

Volume = Time spent.

Technique = type training aerobically or anaerobically

Y axis = % of maximum for an individual.

This could also be useful

Thanks, very helpful. 

Why does the intensity line stop at round 18?  According to the graph the volume (training time) increases but the intensity is so low it’s not even shown? Or is the intensity determined week to week and wasn’t yet determined and plotted when this screen shot was taken?

Edited July 26, 2021 by Nairobi_Demon
Spelling

[Engorged Onion 10,215]

1 hour ago, Nairobi_Demon said:

Thanks, very helpful. 

Why does the intensity line stop at round 18?  According to the graph the volume (training time) increases but the intensity is so low it’s not even shown? Or is the intensity determined week to week and wasn’t yet determined and plotted when this screen shot was taken?

The image is drawn from a workshop given by the AFL educators to early career coaches/staff. 

As it says up the top - it's an example. So it's not an accurate plan for our team, or  individuals , but we can use it as an interpretation within a range of confidence of what is occurring. 

[monoccular 17,427]

On 7/25/2021 at 5:12 PM, binman said:

Fair enough.

Then lets say we are doing the same sort of loading than other teams.

We have a young team. Five of our best 22 are 21 or under (rivers, kozzie, jordon, jackson and petty)

And we have a physically demanding, which is more taxing than say the cats, Eagles and Lions, who hold the ball, chip it around and play slow a lot

 And all three of those teams have much older teams.

Add to that the decision not to rest players and logic suggests that the combination of a young list and ballistic game plan will lead to fatigue.

On not resting players, particularly the young players, it seems a curios decision but Burgess is regarded as the best in the business so I'll back him in to have it all planned to the minute.

 

Has Burgess paced the training well? Who knows. 
I guess only time will tell. Early in the season we appeared to be doing far better in second halves and final quarters in particular. Not so now.

And as regards some of our youth who started the season so well appearing well of the boil, I suspect the lack of VFL to asses replacements may have thrown a bit of a spanner in the works re planning of rotations and “resting / managing” these players, though the mid season bye didn’t seem to do much by way of refreshment. Again, time will tell, and we on these fora won’t have any say or influence.   

 

[YesitwasaWin4theAges 6,702]

On 7/25/2021 at 3:19 PM, Engorged Onion said:

To be the best you’ve got to pressure. No if’s or buts. 

And Is it realistic that over an 8 month (ostensibly 11 months) training period, that essentially 22 games in a row that ‘pressure’ will be dialed up?

I'm on board with this line of thinking O.G, I had an inkiling this was happening but not to the detailed extent you have laid out. Is this all your own analysis?

Makes sense why all our pressure players and F50 pressure has evaporated and our input is down.

Maxy not covering the ground, Tmac looking sluggish, kids Riv, Action, Kosi, Jords all down on input classic signs of increased training loads.

Great work O.G?

 

[YesitwasaWin4theAges 6,702]

On 7/25/2021 at 4:42 PM, binman said:

Fair enough.

Then lets say we are doing the same sort of loading than other teams.

We have a young team. Five of our best 22 are 21 or under (rivers, kozzie, jordon, jackson and petty)

And we have a physically demanding, which is more taxing than say the cats, Eagles and Lions, who hold the ball, chip it around and play slow a lot

 And all three of those teams have much older teams.

Add to that the decision not to rest players and logic suggests that the combination of a young list and ballistic game plan will lead to fatigue.

On not resting players, particularly the young players, it seems a curios decision but Burgess is regarded as the best in the business so I'll back him in to have it all planned to the minute.

 

Couldn't see Geelong doing this with the age of their list.

[deelusions from afar 1,810]

I'm not worried at all - be ready to bump this in September.

• We have been the most consistent performer this year - average losing margin of 11.75.  No one else has been in every game this year like we have.
• We have the best record against other teams in the 8 (we have beaten everyone one there we have played).
• We have shown we lift for the big games - Saints (was big at the time), Tigers. Dogs, Lions, Port - even the 2nd dogs match we played well and if not for some errant kicking for goal (a common theme) and one sided umpiring it would have gone the other way.
• We have the best defence in the league (though people forget that this is only as good as the pressure from our mids and forwards allow).  Every year the fans and commentators get seduced by the scoring power of contenders to watch the best defensive teams perform the best in September.
• We have stars on every line and a few superstars of the comp in their prime - Trac, Clarry and Gawn.
• We are hungry (when it matters - and its about to matter)
• We have been blessed with injuries.
• Our forwardline is our biggest weakness and we have one of the game's premier key forwards from previous seasons returning and starting to find some touch - potentially our one missing piece.

I'm not saying we will win the flag - so much comes down to luck, injuries and who knows what will happen in this covid year.

But i'm not worried about form, fitness, game plan or hunger.  To start the season 11-1 or whatever we were, we knew we were playing finals at the halfway point.  This impacts on hunger for games that don't matter.  And I have no doubt that the fitness staff were told to prepare the players to peak in September - even if it means they might perform below their optimum before then.

We have not been better placed to challenge since 1964 and there's no opponent we would fear.  Buckle up - we're in for a fine September!

 

[bobby1554 1,244]

7 hours ago, deelusions from afar said:

I'm not worried at all - be ready to bump this in September.

• We have been the most consistent performer this year - average losing margin of 11.75.  No one else has been in every game this year like we have.
• We have the best record against other teams in the 8 (we have beaten everyone one there we have played).
• We have shown we lift for the big games - Saints (was big at the time), Tigers. Dogs, Lions, Port - even the 2nd dogs match we played well and if not for some errant kicking for goal (a common theme) and one sided umpiring it would have gone the other way.
• We have the best defence in the league (though people forget that this is only as good as the pressure from our mids and forwards allow).  Every year the fans and commentators get seduced by the scoring power of contenders to watch the best defensive teams perform the best in September.
• We have stars on every line and a few superstars of the comp in their prime - Trac, Clarry and Gawn.
• We are hungry (when it matters - and its about to matter)
• We have been blessed with injuries.
• Our forwardline is our biggest weakness and we have one of the game's premier key forwards from previous seasons returning and starting to find some touch - potentially our one missing piece.

I'm not saying we will win the flag - so much comes down to luck, injuries and who knows what will happen in this covid year.

But i'm not worried about form, fitness, game plan or hunger.  To start the season 11-1 or whatever we were, we knew we were playing finals at the halfway point.  This impacts on hunger for games that don't matter.  And I have no doubt that the fitness staff were told to prepare the players to peak in September - even if it means they might perform below their optimum before then.

We have not been better placed to challenge since 1964 and there's no opponent we would fear.  Buckle up - we're in for a fine September!

 

Firstly I will say that I like your confidence, and just wish I had it. But as Jake Lever said, we havent achieved anything yet. What worries me, and I suspect the majority of posters, is what we have served up over the past 6 weeks, not the first 12. Because in that time, most of the key stats show us to be a bottom 6 team, not top 4.

The opportunity is NOW, not next year, or the year after. Look what happened after 2018, when we were all expecting a dynasty. And it must start this week. Remember that game against Adelaide in 2018, I think it was in Darwin, that is what I want to see this week. Not a limp 10 point win, or god help us, a loss. Do you think Geelong or Bulldog supporters would be worried about losing this week? Wouldn’t it be great to have that feeling, just knowing that you would be 99.5% confident of winning? Hands up folks, who has ever felt like that?
 

History will tell us that it is extremely hard to win this thing from outside top 4. We need to win at least 3 of the next 4. Right now, based on recent form, that appears highly unlikely.

[deelusions from afar 1,810]

1 hour ago, bobby1554 said:

Firstly I will say that I like your confidence, and just wish I had it. But as Jake Lever said, we havent achieved anything yet. What worries me, and I suspect the majority of posters, is what we have served up over the past 6 weeks, not the first 12. Because in that time, most of the key stats show us to be a bottom 6 team, not top 4.

The opportunity is NOW, not next year, or the year after. Look what happened after 2018, when we were all expecting a dynasty. And it must start this week. Remember that game against Adelaide in 2018, I think it was in Darwin, that is what I want to see this week. Not a limp 10 point win, or god help us, a loss. Do you think Geelong or Bulldog supporters would be worried about losing this week? Wouldn’t it be great to have that feeling, just knowing that you would be 99.5% confident of winning? Hands up folks, who has ever felt like that?
 

History will tell us that it is extremely hard to win this thing from outside top 4. We need to win at least 3 of the next 4. Right now, based on recent form, that appears highly unlikely.

That's true - but I think our best is so contingent on our effort collectively - everyone has to play together, run hard defensively, 2nd/3rd efforts etc.  When we've done this, no one can touch us (see Tigers, Dogs first game, Lions 2nd half etc).

But I think to play that way is very taxing - certainly physically but probably mentally too.  The way we've played against the best teams to me suggests we know how to get ourselves "up".

Would have loved to beat the doggies but given the bath we gave them last time I thought they would have come across a bit more invincible against us.  We stayed with them and learnt a bit more about their strategy against us.  I would back us in a final against them (an I'm not normally a glass half full supporter)

I'm not suggesting we've achieved anything yet - I just think that people (esp in the media) are quick to jump at the immediate trends without looking at the bigger picture.  When our effort is high, we are the hardest beat as our defence strangles the opposition.  I think this will happen when we hit the finals (if not before).

The last 4 or so years the tigers have won their last 5 (or so) in a row leading into finals - I've got no doubt we will be looking to do the same (as will every other contender).

[Engorged Onion 10,215]

Hmmmm....end of the intense loading phase in recent times, not sure whether it is a correlation or causation that a performance like this has occurred.  (at least, what we can perform as, not the Suns) 

 

[Adam The God 30,239]

2 hours ago, Engorged Onion said:

Hmmmm....end of the intense loading phase in recent times, not sure whether it is a correlation or causation that a performance like this has occurred.  (at least, what we can perform as, not the Suns) 

 

Thought we looked tired at certain times in the second half and our mids seemed to drop away in the last. Good to really put the foot down though. Bloody good time to be doing it. Need to do the same again to West Coast and Adelaide.

[adonski 12,107]

2 hours ago, Engorged Onion said:

Hmmmm....end of the intense loading phase in recent times, not sure whether it is a correlation or causation that a performance like this has occurred.  (at least, what we can perform as, not the Suns) 

 

Have we considered the possibility of the plane seats we were stuck in for 6 hours yesterday having some form on inbuilt massage function to rejuvenate the group?

[The heart beats true 18,123]

Interesting to hear Brown say how he’d put in a really hard 12 week block of work. He worked very hard today off the ball. The example they showed at half time was fantastic.

The Demonland myth about a mini preseason has proven to be true.

[deanox 9,914]

2 hours ago, A F said:

Thought we looked tired at certain times in the second half and our mids seemed to drop away in the last. Good to really put the foot down though. Bloody good time to be doing it. Need to do the same again to West Coast and Adelaide.

Did we look tired, or did we take foot off pedal in the last?

I've got no worries if we did.

We iced Salem up. Rested TMac. Rested Gawn forward. Let Jordan run almost the whole last quarter to take load off the other mids.

With the draw, percentage is effectively irrelevant for us, so managing fatigue between long flight days is always welcome.

That being said, we scored 1.6 in the 4th quarter. If it had been 4.3 we'd be praising how hard we went until the end.