2021 Leadership Group

[DubDee 20,570]

Great to have stability with our leaders. 
gawn and viney are terrific leaders 

[Dr.D 1,771]

lets be real here. No-one really knows what they're talking about. Everyone is just taking a calculated guess. i.e Petracca should be in because he had a good season. Or Gawn is a bad captain because we came 9th again. None of this is scientific. There's a lot more factors to consider. Who says that the stereotypical alpha male Steven May style is the best leadership style to lead the group? Maybe the players would respond better to someone who is a soft spoken student of the game like Adam Tomlinson? Who really knows. For all we know Fritsch and Weideman could be the best leaders. So we need to define whether to be in the leadership you have to be a top 10 player at the club.

[Swooper1987 2,745]

It's all so subjective.  I think Rob Flower was a terrific captain at Melbourne yet we only played finals once in his tenure of 7 years. Bruce Monteath was a handy player but captained Richmond to a flag (from the bench) in 1980, in a team chock full of leaders - Bartlett, Cloke, Wood, Bourke etc etc.  That was his only season as skipper.

The best captain I've ever seen, from both an on and off field point of view was Terry Daniher.  One of the lads, but set such an outstanding on field example that players were prepared to follow him anywhere.  All time greats like Tim Watson and Simon Madden, as well as workmanlike players Peter Bradbury and Steve Carey speak reverently of TD's leadership capabilities.  He spoke to fans, to corporates and media in an authentic and relatable manner.

Gawn has the capacity to lead like Daniher.  He has great media and fan presence.  He is an outstanding player who clearly has the respect of the playing group - in almost every interview Petracca and Oliver do they reference the influence Gawn has on their individual and collective games.  He has been an outstanding player for many years now.  4 times an AA speaks volumes as to his playing ability. He will grow into the role, and as Petracca, Oliver, Lever, May etc become better able to share that onfield leadership burden, we will collectively become a better team.

Those pushing for May need to remember he was not a successful Captain at GC.  He led a side with an ingrained poor culture that he couldn't effectively influence, and was a part of since day one.  Often injured and sometimes suspended he was far from professional.  His first year at Melbourne was a continuation of that.  He has played one good season.  He has leadership capabilities, no doubt, but he would not have the respect that players like Gawn have built up over a number of years. 

[58er 5,607]

3 hours ago, Swooper1987 said:

It's all so subjective.  I think Rob Flower was a terrific captain at Melbourne yet we only played finals once in his tenure of 7 years. Bruce Monteath was a handy player but captained Richmond to a flag (from the bench) in 1980, in a team chock full of leaders - Bartlett, Cloke, Wood, Bourke etc etc.  That was his only season as skipper.

The best captain I've ever seen, from both an on and off field point of view was Terry Daniher.  One of the lads, but set such an outstanding on field example that players were prepared to follow him anywhere.  All time greats like Tim Watson and Simon Madden, as well as workmanlike players Peter Bradbury and Steve Carey speak reverently of TD's leadership capabilities.  He spoke to fans, to corporates and media in an authentic and relatable manner.

Gawn has the capacity to lead like Daniher.  He has great media and fan presence.  He is an outstanding player who clearly has the respect of the playing group - in almost every interview Petracca and Oliver do they reference the influence Gawn has on their individual and collective games.  He has been an outstanding player for many years now.  4 times an AA speaks volumes as to his playing ability. He will grow into the role, and as Petracca, Oliver, Lever, May etc become better able to share that onfield leadership burden, we will collectively become a better team.

Those pushing for May need to remember he was not a successful Captain at GC.  He led a side with an ingrained poor culture that he couldn't effectively influence, and was a part of since day one.  Often injured and sometimes suspended he was far from professional.  His first year at Melbourne was a continuation of that.  He has played one good season.  He has leadership capabilities, no doubt, but he would not have the respect that players like Gawn have built up over a number of years. 

Reckon he would be treated  ( Maysie)  very respectfully but they have made Their decision for 2021 that Max and Jack are C and VC and only a leadership extension will add to them.

I hope we add at least 3 inc May and Trac and Lever or Tmac.

[Lord Nev 13,511]

5 hours ago, Swooper1987 said:

Those pushing for May need to remember he was not a successful Captain at GC.  He led a side with an ingrained poor culture that he couldn't effectively influence, and was a part of since day one.

I find this an interesting argument given last year under Gawn's captaincy we had COVID breaches, Bennell going off the rails, The Hunt & Trac situation, losses in very winnable games with finals on the line and a continuation of the same onfield problems we've had for previous years.

I love Gawn, but where's the evidence he 'effectively influenced' with his leadership onfield in 2020?

[58er 5,607]

3 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

I find this an interesting argument given last year under Gawn's captaincy we had COVID breaches, Bennell going off the rails, The Hunt & Trac situation, losses in very winnable games with finals on the line and a continuation of the same onfield problems we've had for previous years.

I love Gawn, but where's the evidence he 'effectively influenced' with his leadership onfield in 2020?

I Think  you should be querying the Coaching  Just as much as Gawny.

Yes that  was The early Covid breach of Spargo and can't remember, Bennell No one would have Stopped him plus Trac and Hunty who would have seen that ?

Playing  wise the Faults are coaches IMO  and it was Gawny's first year as skipper.

Thats why we need a group inc May and 2 others plus C and VC.

[Lord Nev 13,511]

7 minutes ago, 58er said:

I Think  you should be querying the Coaching  Just as much as Gawny.

Yes that  was The early Covid breach of Spargo and can't remember, Bennell No one would have Stopped him plus Trac and Hunty who would have seen that ?

Playing  wise the Faults are coaches IMO  and it was Gawny's first year as skipper.

Thats why we need a group inc May and 2 others plus C and VC.

Sounds like a lot of excuses mate.

So at Melbourne the culture is the coach's responsibility, but at Gold Coast it was May's?

Sure, Gawn is great with the media, an excellent trainer and an exceptional player, all things Swooper mentioned, but Swooper didn't mention once about his onfield leadership during games. That's the most important thing would you agree? I'm not saying May is the answer of course, but Gawn is yet to show he can rally, direct and organize our team on game day like a good captain would. Great bloke, funny, works hard, but until he develops some mongrel and starts directing and demanding more on game day I don't see him being a premiership winning captain.

Edited January 31, 2021 by Lord Nev

[Lucifers Hero 37,006]

6 hours ago, Swooper1987 said:

Those pushing for May need to remember he was not a successful Captain at GC.  He led a side with an ingrained poor culture that he couldn't effectively influence, and was a part of since day one.  Often injured and sometimes suspended he was far from professional.  His first year at Melbourne was a continuation of that.  He has played one good season.  He has leadership capabilities, no doubt, but he would not have the respect that players like Gawn have built up over a number of years. 

All very fair and good comments.

I would like to judge May on his time at the Dees.  He certainly got off to a bad start in 2019 but in 2020 went a very long way to redeeming himself.  He was 2nd in the Bluey, won the Leadership Award and the Most Consistent Competitor award.  All are voted on by the coaches.

I think it is important to maintain leadership stabilty.  Lord knows we have chopped and changed so much in the last 4 years.  So I wouldn't put May in the Cap/Vice-Cap roles but I do feel he is in front of Melksham, Lever, Langdon and Petracca in the leadership stakes.  And if the 2020 coaches votes mean something for the awards he won he should be in a leadership role; formal or informal.

[58er 5,607]

12 hours ago, Lord Nev said:

Sounds like a lot of excuses mate.

So at Melbourne the culture is the coach's responsibility, but at Gold Coast it was May's?

Sure, Gawn is great with the media, an excellent trainer and an exceptional player, all things Swooper mentioned, but Swooper didn't mention once about his onfield leadership during games. That's the most important thing would you agree? I'm not saying May is the answer of course, but Gawn is yet to show he can rally, direct and organize our team on game day like a good captain would. Great bloke, funny, works hard, but until he develops some mongrel and starts directing and demanding more on game day I don't see him being a premiership winning captain.

I didnt say about culture bring different for May at GC snd not at MFC.

GC had no culture or very bad.

We are developing ours gradually starting from Roosy but Goody has let it slip.

Wr need to get it back and Gawny in his 2nd year might do better but with Jack Maysie snd say Trac and Langers the players can be more influential from a leadership group sort of aspect.

But you can't blame Gawny  and Jack when Players fo stupid things. They can't stop them but they can decide  upon fair and Necessary discipline if necessary.

[Demonland 64,798]

 

[La Dee-vina Comedia 16,395]

17 hours ago, Lord Nev said:

Sounds like a lot of excuses mate.

So at Melbourne the culture is the coach's responsibility, but at Gold Coast it was May's?

Sure, Gawn is great with the media, an excellent trainer and an exceptional player, all things Swooper mentioned, but Swooper didn't mention once about his onfield leadership during games. That's the most important thing would you agree? I'm not saying May is the answer of course, but Gawn is yet to show he can rally, direct and organize our team on game day like a good captain would. Great bloke, funny, works hard, but until he develops some mongrel and starts directing and demanding more on game day I don't see him being a premiership winning captain.

I'm interested in whether people agree with this comment. I don't. That might have been the case when footballers were part-time, but with today's professional footballers, I think captaincy is more about setting standards of behaviour and character the rest of the week rather than how a captain performs on game day. Granted, the captain has to be a good enough player to be guaranteed selection each week (other than when injured or "rested"), but I expect the 22 players to respond to the coach on game day, not the captain.  

[Lord Nev 13,511]

2 minutes ago, La Dee-vina Comedia said:

I'm interested in whether people agree with this comment. I don't. That might have been the case when footballers were part-time, but with today's professional footballers, I think captaincy is more about setting standards of behaviour and character the rest of the week rather than how a captain performs on game day. Granted, the captain has to be a good enough player to be guaranteed selection each week (other than when injured or "rested"), but I expect the 22 players to respond to the coach on game day, not the captain.  

The coach isn't out on the field though. He may get on the phone to a player on the bench, have a chat at half time, but there's not much opportunity direct and instruct from there, particularly with runners less involved.

It can be different for every team, some may have that innate group leadership as you say, but we clearly do not. I'm not talking about how they perform on game day in a player way, I'm more talking about actively directing, instructing, setting the tone, all the things that are reasons you have a designated leader out on the field for.

Gawn is fantastic with the other stuff. Amazing trainer, seems to relate well to all players, good with the media and promoting the club, I just think he needs to develop those other aspects and build a 'killer instinct' on game day for us to be a premiership threat.

[Lord Nev 13,511]

5 hours ago, 58er said:

I didnt say about culture bring different for May at GC snd not at MFC.

GC had no culture or very bad.

We are developing ours gradually starting from Roosy but Goody has let it slip.

Wr need to get it back and Gawny in his 2nd year might do better but with Jack Maysie snd say Trac and Langers the players can be more influential from a leadership group sort of aspect.

But you can't blame Gawny  and Jack when Players fo stupid things. They can't stop them but they can decide  upon fair and Necessary discipline if necessary.

Yeah sorry, that was in reference to Swooper blaming May for GC's culture.

I think we have a good mix if the stories of that extended group are true. Just my personal opinion that Max as sole captain needs to develop a bit more with his game day leadership. Absolutely love him of course and think apart from that he's a very good captain.

[La Dee-vina Comedia 16,395]

18 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

The coach isn't out on the field though. He may get on the phone to a player on the bench, have a chat at half time, but there's not much opportunity direct and instruct from there, particularly with runners less involved.

It can be different for every team, some may have that innate group leadership as you say, but we clearly do not. I'm not talking about how they perform on game day in a player way, I'm more talking about actively directing, instructing, setting the tone, all the things that are reasons you have a designated leader out on the field for.

Gawn is fantastic with the other stuff. Amazing trainer, seems to relate well to all players, good with the media and promoting the club, I just think he needs to develop those other aspects and build a 'killer instinct' on game day for us to be a premiership threat.

Because Gawn is an onballer he can fulfil the role you see a captain playing more easily as he gets to all parts of the ground. But do you think someone who plays full back or full forward could be a successful captain?

[Lord Nev 13,511]

5 minutes ago, La Dee-vina Comedia said:

Because Gawn is an onballer he can fulfil the role you see a captain playing more easily as he gets to all parts of the ground. But do you think someone who plays full back or full forward could be a successful captain?

I'm not suggesting May should be captain.

I wouldn't have minded a Gawn & May dual captaincy, I think that would give us that mix of things we need, but I'm more saying what I think Gawn needs to add to his leadership to take us to the next level.

[dazzledavey36 48,718]

6 minutes ago, La Dee-vina Comedia said:

Because Gawn is an onballer he can fulfil the role you see a captain playing more easily as he gets to all parts of the ground. But do you think someone who plays full back or full forward could be a successful captain?

This is a silly argument. Position has no bearing whether you are a successful captain or not.

Tom Harley

Nick Maxwell

Luke Hodge

Easton Wood

There's 4 successful leaders right there who won premiership as captains playing down back. Chris Judd was one of the best midfielder of the modern game. But he was a terrible leader.

 

[Red and Blue realist 2,026]

I think a few on here are over stating what a captain's role is these days, they toss the coin and attend press conferences and are responsible for promoting the club. They also have a role in "firing up" the team before the game and on the ground at half time, but this can also fall to more vocal members of the team. As far as on-field leadership they are no more responsible than all other experienced players, guys like Hodge had Mitchell, Lewis, Buddy, Birchall, Lake etc. who'd all stand up when required, but didn't need to be told too by Hodge. Selwood had Scarlett, Enright, Bartel, Hawkins etc. Cotchin has got Dusty, Reiwolt, Grimes etc.

Gawn needs support from Viney, but had May, Lever, Nev in the backline last year,  where we struggle is forward leaders, that's why Melk probably got games last year when out of form. hopefully BBB and Weid steps up this year. If al are working well together, all of a sudden Max will be seen as a good captain. 

[La Dee-vina Comedia 16,395]

28 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

This is a silly argument. Position has no bearing whether you are a successful captain or not.

Tom Harley

Nick Maxwell

Luke Hodge

Easton Wood

There's 4 successful leaders right there who won premiership as captains playing down back. Chris Judd was one of the best midfielder of the modern game. But he was a terrible leader.

 

I agree with you. I was only pointing out the difficulty of sustaining the argument that the primary role of the captain is on-field. I have no problem at all with key defenders or forwards being captain as I firmly believe the role of any captain is less about on-field leadership and more about leading the team the rest of the time.  

I also agree with you about Chris Judd. Being a superstar player doesn't automatically make someone a great captain. There are plenty of examples of star players who were not great captains.

[Its Time for Another 4,052]

On 1/30/2021 at 4:27 PM, Dr.D said:

lets be real here. No-one really knows what they're talking about. 

Agree with the above DrD. Can anyone on DL put their hand up and say they know from the inside what happens with the leadership. I'm sure it's very different to what we see on the outside. 

Couple of quick observations. 

Paul Roos was quoted on a Fox Footy promo saying  "Leadership is players telling other players what to do."

Typically succinct from Roos. I saw this first hand at a Swans intra club a few years ago when I listened to the senior players  telling the junior players where to stand to within a few centimetres. They were telling them when to leave their man, when to stay etc.That's the Swans culture. Benny Mathews is now back at the Swans this year coaching. One of the things he said he has really noticed straight away is how much input the senior players have. TBH I only see a couple of MFC players doing this. May is at the top of that list. Lever is born to it. I think we've been waiting for a critical number of players to reach the level of experience to do it. We should be there now but I don't see a lot of it going on yet. Hopefully we will this year.

As for leadership style.  Daisy Pearce was asked a few years ago whether as the Captain of the Womens team she discussed leadership with Jonesy. She made a very frank comment that she said to him that she had observed that he was a very angry leader. She said he was taken aback by that comment and went away and reflected on it. Viney was miked during a game when he was Captain. I was very surprised at how basic his onfield comments were. But I know I'd follow him over the trenches and he's the only player I've seen in the past decade or so who has literally lifted and carried the team forward in a couple of games. Gawny also does some incredibly inspiring intercept work particularly in defence where he continually puts his body on the line. 

So to go back to the beginning lets face it we don't know what goes on with the leadership. Hopefully we have players developing all over the ground who will lead by telling other players the right thing to do at critical moments.

I love Gawny's on and off field performance as the figure head for the club. I love Viney's onfield leadership by example. All I know is they were both voted in. Everyone involved in football at MFC has a very significant year coming up. 

Go Dees!

 

 

[58er 5,607]

10 hours ago, Lord Nev said:

Yeah sorry, that was in reference to Swooper blaming May for GC's culture.

I think we have a good mix if the stories of that extended group are true. Just my personal opinion that Max as sole captain needs to develop a bit more with his game day leadership. Absolutely love him of course and think apart from that he's a very good captain.

Maxy is great but not at the On ground Placement etc.and tactics other than ruck IMO.

Jack is a whole hearted footballer who tends to lead by example but again footy tactics are not  his Forte except see ball get ball and knock out whoever  is in the way.

Maysie has the best balance of on field tactics in defence not sure all over the ground but others in leadership can cover this whether official or not.as we grow Trac Brown and Langers plus the Coaches should assist this aspect much more than in the past.
 

In the meantime we recruit players with footy nous like Rivers and others that are  able to read and be responsible fir our tactics and plans to be practised  almost automatically in conjunction with our game plan. 

[DeeSpencer 23,124]

Quote

“He kicked six in an intra-club quarter,” he said.

“Yeah, he kicked six, I think he was playing on no one.

“No, he plays really well. He’s coming across from North and he’s brought a lot for us.

“To be fair, all four of our tall forwards have started really well. Sam Weideman has come back in great shape, Tom McDonald has come back in unbelievable shape and Luke Jackson, I said this time last year was already better than me, now he’s got even better.

Why haven't they got in Max's ear and told him to stop being such a clown and just chill?

We don't need captain funny man. 

Makes me want to throw up.