You don’t need to have been a forward to coach a forward line and a mentor such as Brown is not a replacement for a coach. Brown is a sounding board if he’s good at mentoring.

On 12/29/2020 at 10:25 AM, Lucifer's Hero said:

Separation from op and running patterns would be fairly essential tools in a key forward's kit bag.  It beggars belief that going into his 7th year the club has not provided this (or if it has, not sufficiently) and he feels he needs to seek it out for himself. 

He said in another interview that he was trying to learn what to do from Steven May which has some merit but not a substitute for good coaching.

It all makes me wonder if we had a development plan for Sam or it has been left to chance.  One could be forgiven for thinking his development has been collateral damage of not having an experienced forward coach nor a consistent one for most of his time at the club.

Its hard to develop confidence if you aren't very sure on what to do or how to do it. 

Hopefully, this is a turning point for him.  And hopefully, his up field teammates learn what Sam's running patterns will be so they can anticipate ball placement. 

I wonder how much of that is the players around him, as much as the coaches.

His main KPF team-mates were:

2016: Hogan, Watts

2017: Hogan, Watts, Tmac (part)

2018: Tmac, Hogan, 

2019: TMac, 

2020: Jackson, TMac

 

Hogan might have been a strong performer but he was but a kid. Many observers note his poor body language at times, and also that at times of poor form he often stood still and waved for it, instead of leading into space.

Watts was not a key forward, and played more as a flanker, utility.

TMac is not a true forward in terms of craft. He had a period where he marked and kicked superbly making him the no. 1 forward. But leading patterns and separation from opponent aren't nessecarily his strengths.

Jackson is a first year player with limited football experience.

 

Who has Weid had to learn from or emulate? Who has lead had to work with in terms of leading patterns?

9 hours ago, deanox said:

I wonder how much of that is the players around him, as much as the coaches.

His main KPF team-mates were:

2016: Hogan, Watts

2017: Hogan, Watts, Tmac (part)

2018: Tmac, Hogan, 

2019: TMac, 

2020: Jackson, TMac

 

Hogan might have been a strong performer but he was but a kid. Many observers note his poor body language at times, and also that at times of poor form he often stood still and waved for it, instead of leading into space.

Watts was not a key forward, and played more as a flanker, utility.

TMac is not a true forward in terms of craft. He had a period where he marked and kicked superbly making him the no. 1 forward. But leading patterns and separation from opponent aren't nessecarily his strengths.

Jackson is a first year player with limited football experience.

 

Who has Weid had to learn from or emulate? Who has lead had to work with in terms of leading patterns?

Agree with your comments and the last sentence is the hub of the matter.  He hasn't had anyone to learn from!  And I can't see where/how the coaches filled the void. 

So he turned to May and now turning to J Brown.  Good on him for showing initiative. 

imv it is part of the coach's (head, line and development) job to identify requirements of a role (in this case key fwd) and put in place a development program to teach him.  

In absence of an internal player role model/mentor/fwd coach, getting external help for him 3-4 years ago would surely make him a better player than he is now.

On 12/30/2020 at 6:24 PM, ManDee said:

You said nothing of current coaches. There are plenty of assistant coaches, we even have one. Forwards are over represented in the media which may keep some away from coaching.

My post was in reply to having a assistant coach that played as a forward,  I said that there are just not that many assistant coaches that played as a forward. The original post was about falling Sam, because we did not have a assistant coach that was a forward coaching the forward line.

On 12/30/2020 at 5:24 PM, ManDee said:

You said nothing of current coaches. There are plenty of assistant coaches, we even have one. Forwards are over represented in the media which may keep some away from coaching.

Taylor and Richo, please don't apply....

I know this is a Sam Weideman thread but as promising as the Weideman/Brown combo was in 2020, Tmac still has a big say as to who plays key position in 2021.

14 hours ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

Agree with your comments and the last sentence is the hub of the matter.  He hasn't had anyone to learn from!  And I can't see where/how the coaches filled the void. 

So he turned to May and now turning to J Brown.  Good on him for showing initiative. 

imv it is part of the coach's (head, line and development) job to identify requirements of a role (in this case key fwd) and put in place a development program to teach him.  

In absence of an internal player role model/mentor/fwd coach, getting external help for him 3-4 years ago would surely make him a better player than he is now.

Oh absolutely. I wonder if playing alongside "non forwards" has confused the message though.

Weid only played 3 games in 2016, so has played mostly alongside Tmac as a forward.

TMac does not play like a normal forward in terms of positioning. In 2017-2019, Weid may have been instructed to play a certain way to allow TMac to do his thing. In 2020 Weid had to try and take the no. 1 role and run different patterns. But the patterns that would/could work for him would potentially be very different than TMac.

I have no idea if the above is true but it seems plausible.

Edited January 2, 20214 yr by deanox

10 hours ago, deanox said:

Oh absolutely. I wonder if playing alongside "non forwards" has confused the message though.

Weid only played 3 games in 2016, so has played mostly alongside Tmac as a forward.

TMac does not play like a normal forward in terms of positioning. In 2017-2019, Weid may have been instructed to play a certain way to allow TMac to do his thing. In 2020 Weid had to try and take the no. 1 role and run different patterns. But the patterns that would/could work for him would potentially be very different than TMac.

I have no idea if the above is true but it seems plausible.

Very plausible. 

I still feel the onus is on the coaches to get the message across to a player and if co-ordination is required between two fwds eg Weidemen and TMc that the coaches communicate and train such co-ordination.

I'm not trying to put it all on the coaches.  Players share some responsibility.  From the outside it looks like Sam has been seeking help eg May now J Brown.  But at the end of the day he (and others) need clearly defined and consistent roles that are clearly understood by themselves and their team mates and coaches that train those roles.  From our 'Brown's cows' type fwd line performance in recent years not sure that has been happening.

On 1/1/2021 at 9:23 AM, rjay said:

Neither Lockett or Dustall would have taken 6 pack marks in a game.

Of the current tall forwards Dixon, Hawkins or Lynch might take one, 2 on a good day...Cameron rarely takes a pack mark.

A lot of the problem is how we move the ball in, the expectation of the pack mark is higher because we bomb the ball.

Agreed and think Buddy would be struggling to have taken 6 pack marks in his career 

13 hours ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

Very plausible. 

I still feel the onus is on the coaches to get the message across to a player and if co-ordination is required between two fwds eg Weidemen and TMc that the coaches communicate and train such co-ordination.

I'm not trying to put it all on the coaches.  Players share some responsibility.  From the outside it looks like Sam has been seeking help eg May now J Brown.  But at the end of the day he (and others) need clearly defined and consistent roles that are clearly understood by themselves and their team mates and coaches that train those roles.  From our 'Brown's cows' type fwd line performance in recent years not sure that has been happening.

Oh I agree completely, it's primarily the coaches responsibility.

What I was trying to say is for 2017-2019 was the coaches message: 

 

-"what Weid needs to do to win MFC games" (i.e. how to play alongside TMac); or was it 

-"what Weid would need to do to develop as a no. 1 or 2 key forward" (I.e. best practice running patterns).

 

We put eggs in the TMac basket which didn't pay off. It wouldn't surprise me if those eggs included the coaching of players around him.

 

Sammy is the kid I was most looking forward to seeing play this season to see how much he has developed.  I've seen both VFL games that Sammy has played this year and he is clearly far too good for this level.

He played some really good footy last year and now about to hit his mid 20's, I was expecting big things this season.

T-Mac and LJ are doing a really good job and I'm happy to see BBB jag a game this weekend but I wonder if he wasn't a new recruit, would he be getting a game above Weideman as from what I have seen in the two games, Weid has been better.

I get that he is competing with T-Mac for his gig but my concern is (and its a great concern) is what if T-Mac, BBB and LJ keep going all season - or we continue rotating two of the three.

Where does this leave the Weid??  

On 1/2/2021 at 12:09 AM, deanox said:

Hogan might have been a strong performer

Really? He kicked 40 a year for 3 years in a pretty ordinary side as the #1 Man. I'm not sure Weid has 40 goals in total. 

We can win a Flag this year with EVERY player who is good enough making their own particular contribution.  

1 hour ago, Deeko2 said:

Sammy is the kid I was most looking forward to seeing play this season to see how much he has developed.  I've seen both VFL games that Sammy has played this year and he is clearly far too good for this level.

He played some really good footy last year and now about to hit his mid 20's, I was expecting big things this season.

T-Mac and LJ are doing a really good job and I'm happy to see BBB jag a game this weekend but I wonder if he wasn't a new recruit, would he be getting a game above Weideman as from what I have seen in the two games, Weid has been better.

I get that he is competing with T-Mac for his gig but my concern is (and its a great concern) is what if T-Mac, BBB and LJ keep going all season - or we continue rotating two of the three.

Where does this leave the Weid??  

He was far and above the better of the two in their first showing.  BB took the chocolates in last game vs Box Hill though imv.   Weid improved and certainly contributed in the second half but very quiet in the first from what i saw.

The Weid has to smash the door ? down to get in the side. 
That is now obvious. I hope he gets there, but he needs to get more aggression into his game at AFL Level

1 hour ago, Deeko2 said:

Sammy is the kid I was most looking forward to seeing play this season to see how much he has developed.  I've seen both VFL games that Sammy has played this year and he is clearly far too good for this level.

He played some really good footy last year and now about to hit his mid 20's, I was expecting big things this season.

T-Mac and LJ are doing a really good job and I'm happy to see BBB jag a game this weekend but I wonder if he wasn't a new recruit, would he be getting a game above Weideman as from what I have seen in the two games, Weid has been better.

I get that he is competing with T-Mac for his gig but my concern is (and its a great concern) is what if T-Mac, BBB and LJ keep going all season - or we continue rotating two of the three.

Where does this leave the Weid??  

I'm the same. Thought Weid showed a lot last year. 

I also suspect Weid is a better option than BBB as I believe Weid has a better rounded game. 

I'm also bias b/c I'm nervous his moving on EOY if he doesn't get games and we need his age bracket. 

Hes going to kick 12 tonight.

8 minutes ago, Winter Dan said:

I'm the same. Thought Weid showed a lot last year. 

I also suspect Weid is a better option than BBB as I believe Weid has a better rounded game. 

I'm also bias b/c I'm nervous his moving on EOY if he doesn't get games and we need his age bracket. 

Where was he in the last 4 games? Went missing !

2 hours ago, Doug Reemer said:

Really? He kicked 40 a year for 3 years in a pretty ordinary side as the #1 Man. I'm not sure Weid has 40 goals in total. 

46 DR.

33 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

The Weid has to smash the door ? down to get in the side. 
That is now obvious. I hope he gets there, but he needs to get more aggression into his game at AFL Level

what are you talking about. He kicked 7 goals last week and a few this week. He's been better than Ben Brown. Which was the entire point of the original post. 

Personally, I think Weideman may struggle to get a game unless he strings together some big efforts at Casey, somebody gets injured or somebody loses form. He is (IMHO) behind Brown in terms of class. For me, Weeds biggest problem is his inability to consistently take one grab marks at AFL level. It’s an unpleasant thought but unless he takes his opportunity with both hands, if and when it presents, his future may be in the black and white perhaps?

Weid will replace TMac at some stage. Might be a few weeks but it will happen. 

Get the BBB, Weid and Jackson combo firing then look out 

TMac can be medical sub. He actually would be the ideal medical sub. 

Edited April 29, 20213 yr by Pulp Fritschon

5 minutes ago, Dr.D said:

what are you talking about. He kicked 7 goals last week and a few this week. He's been better than Ben Brown. Which was the entire point of the original post. 

7 goals at Casey is not AFL Level. That is the point that matters 

He has to do it repeatedly until it becomes second nature. 
That is what i am talking about Dr. Depression 

It’s a bit of tough luck for Weid, he’s put in the hard work over pre-season and basically set himself up as the partner to Brown. When Brown went down with his injury you would’ve banked on Weid becoming the number 1 focal point and then he got injured himself. 

Currently it’s hard to see him getting into the side if TMac continues his sold form (he’s had maybe one sun-par game for the year). Unless he is smashing the door down and one of Brown or TMac doesn’t perform (or if there’s an injury) it’ll be really tough to see him get games. 

His job is simple right now, make the decision as hard as possible for the selection committee. 

FWIW I kinda agree that it’s harsh Weid didn’t get first crack when he’s had the better VFL form. But Brown has runs on the board and knows Hobart better than any player in the team.

Edited April 29, 20213 yr by Pates

1 minute ago, Sir Why You Little said:

7 goals at Casey is not AFL Level. That is the point that matters 

He has to do it repeatedly until it becomes second nature. 
That is what i am talking about Dr. Depression 

 so why did Ben Brown get in if he wasn't doing it repeatedly? in fact, his output was less than weideman. Good luck finding anyone that kicks 7 repeatedly at Vfl level.