2 hours ago, DeeSpencer said:

I feel like Bevo and Chris Scott and the coaches that don't invest in old school ruckman are philosophically on the right track because why get a dinosaur type if you can try to find an extra midfielder.

Chris Scott loves Blicavs, he's routinely at the top of the Cats B+F. Bevo really liked what Roughead and Boyd did and they've been chasing Stef Martin for years because in his prime he could hold up in the hit outs and provided a lot around the ground.

The question is should you chase the hope of an extra mid when it's more hope than reality. Tim English and Rhys Stanley are both rucks who on their best days look similar to what Jackson can be, they just don't always have their best days. So do you just suck it up and get yourself an old war horse type. Someone like John Ceglar is never going to be considered an extra midfielder but his size and strength would make life harder in the actual ruck contest for Jacko to just halve it then follow up.

It's funny how these coaches get the reputation for not rating rucks when it could be they're just too desperate for the perfect ruck and not appreciative enough for an honest battler. They player they all want in the ruck is the player Jackson is hopefully becoming. 

Great point. Like the all rounder in cricket, ideally they need to be good enough to be picked purely as a batsman or a bowler. Then the other skill is a real weapon. 

1 hour ago, wheaters31 said:

Will never forgive Dwayne Russell for his commentary from the Geelong vs Melbourne game when we got thumped. Seemed to take delight it what was happening.

Said it was the clubs "last supper".

ah.....186......the game we had to have........to paraphrase keating

it all springs from that day

I reckon an 83 point PF Loss is worse than a 186 H&A GAME loss.At least it is in my recent and obviously their (cats) lingering memory.

7 hours ago, KysaiahMessiah said:

Garry Lyon said that a new definition needs to be found for the role Jacko played.  I agree it wasnt pure ruck, he left Martin and English near the centre circle after competing for the tap, and become another ground ball midfielder.  Mind blowing performance !

Yep it's called ruck rover

7 hours ago, KysaiahMessiah said:

Garry Lyon said that a new definition needs to be found for the role Jacko played.  I agree it wasnt pure ruck, he left Martin and English near the centre circle after competing for the tap, and become another ground ball midfielder.  Mind blowing performance !

Sometimes I think I live in a parallel universe where physics are different and sh&t operates in reverse. Jimmy invented this role 35 years ago. 

Edited September 30, 20213 yr by Queanbeyan Demon
Typo

24 minutes ago, willmoy said:

Yep it's called ruck rover

Ruck/Rover.

"In defence of Dwayne a little the segment was based on Leppitsch saying rucks are the least valuable position on the ground."

Wow. . . . just wow.

Anyone who saw Farmer, Stephen Michael and Nichols said they were the best footballers in their respective sides by a mile. I've seen Ditterich, Dempsey, Madden, Cox, Stynes and now Gawn. All were brilliant and turned games regularly with their tap work, marking, positioning "in the hole" and goal kicking. Flags are generally not won by sides that do not have an A grade ruck. I could easily argue that outside of Dusty, Big Nank is Richmond's most valuable player. 

7 minutes ago, Queanbeyan Demon said:

I could easily argue that outside of Dusty, Big Nank is Richmond's most valuable player. 

I'd argue Nank is nowhere near it. Now...argue it 😃

11 minutes ago, Queanbeyan Demon said:

Flags are generally not won by sides that do not have an A grade ruck. I could easily argue that outside of Dusty, Big Nank is Richmond's most valuable player. 

I’m a Nank fan, I think he’s exactly the kind of ruck you’d want if you can’t have a superstar. But he’s just not an A grade ruck like Gawn, Goldstein, Nic Nat, Grundy.

He’s a very capable B grade type, and below Lynch, Riewoldt, Cotchin, Edwards, Houli, Vlastuin, Grimes from the best Richmond sides.

I’d argue Gawn is the first A grade ruck to win a flag since Brad Ottens at the Cats a decade ago. 

 

2 hours ago, willmoy said:

Yep it's called ruck rover

 

2 hours ago, Chook said:

Ruck/Rover.

 

2 hours ago, Queanbeyan Demon said:

Sometimes I think I live in a parallel universe where physics are different and sh&t operates in reverse. Jimmy invented this role 35 years ago. 

Norm Smith I believe created the term for Ron Barassi in the mid to late 1950s. 
I believe that Jackson has the raw talent to (almost) become RDB’s equal ….and just how exciting would that be?? 
PS sign him up for10 years, now. 

10 hours ago, DeeSpencer said:

 

I’d argue Gawn is the first A grade ruck to win a flag since Brad Ottens at the Cats a decade ago. 

 

Good call. I'm surprised Ottens doesnt get more air time on this. He was the differnece for the Cats in the 07 finals, prior to the GF. When off the ground they struggeld and he got them over the line in the Prelim.

10 hours ago, DeeSpencer said:

I’m a Nank fan, I think he’s exactly the kind of ruck you’d want if you can’t have a superstar. But he’s just not an A grade ruck like Gawn, Goldstein, Nic Nat, Grundy.

He’s a very capable B grade type, and below Lynch, Riewoldt, Cotchin, Edwards, Houli, Vlastuin, Grimes from the best Richmond sides.

I’d argue Gawn is the first A grade ruck to win a flag since Brad Ottens at the Cats a decade ago. 

 

Was Ottens A grade? I think people don't rate ruckmen because the true a grades are so few and far between. Especially a grade for more than a year or 2 yet every side has genuine a grade midfielders. 

I certainly subscribed to the theory you didn't need an a grade ruck. The Brisbane/Hawthorn 3 peats didn't have them. 

How ironic though that the lingering question mark over Geelong, and now Western Bulldogs is their ruck department where ours is the best in the league.

I guess it comes down to what else the ruckman does. Not many of them get around and take marks on defensive 50 and now go forward as well as Gawn

The problem is ruckmen in the modern game have to do more than jump at the centre bounce and crash packs for the mids and small forwards.

Ruckmen have evolved since the 1950 into defenders and forwards and now midfielders because they need to be mobile and good below their knees.

Brisbane toted out Keating with an elite midfield in Grand Finals, Hawthorn had McEvoy with an elite midfield, Geelong had Ottens with an elite midfield and Richmond had Nankervis with an elite midfield.

Melbourne on the other had Gawn/Jackson with an elite midfield v's Bulldogs Martin/English with an elite midfield.

The Gawn Jackson combinations were better midfielders the Bulldogs counter parts.

 

11 hours ago, willmoy said:

Yep it's called ruck rover

That's what I was thinking. The old type "ruck rover", eg Barassi, was actually a big bodied mid.

Jackson is the new Ruck Rover prototype.

40 minutes ago, Josh said:

Was Ottens A grade? I think people don't rate ruckmen because the true a grades are so few and far between. Especially a grade for more than a year or 2 yet every side has genuine a grade midfielders. 

I certainly subscribed to the theory you didn't need an a grade ruck. The Brisbane/Hawthorn 3 peats didn't have them. 

How ironic though that the lingering question mark over Geelong, and now Western Bulldogs is their ruck department where ours is the best in the league.

I guess it comes down to what else the ruckman does. Not many of them get around and take marks on defensive 50 and now go forward as well as Gawn

He had a strange old career because he was a forward for so long and never really cemented himself, but I think in 2007 he was a huge part of that flag and probably pushed himself in to the A grade category, after that he turned up in September when needed. I'd have him just in the A grade category for those years. And a class above Nankervis/McEvoy/Hale from the recent Tigers and Hawks runs.

Being able to get so much value as defensive interceptors and as forwards is what makes our guys so exciting. Clearly it's unlikely we see a stoppage run as good as the 3rd quarter, one where Jackson wasn't even smashing the hit outs anyway, but to get an extra tall at either end is such an advantage.

It's been a long time since a true ruckman won a Brownlow medal. Is that because of flaws in the voting system, or has ruck play become less important? There have been excellent ruckmen win the medal, such as Len Thompson, Graeme Teasdale (albeit, dominant for just one year), Jim Stynes, Gary Dempsey, Barry Round, Graham Moss and Scott Wynd. And plenty of other ruckmen who dominated their era, such as Polly Farmer, Carl Ditterich, John Nicholls and a couple of Maddens. 

While teams can have success without a dominant ruckman, I think the chances of success improve if you have one of the best ruckmen in the competition as part of your side. That can hardly be a controversial statement though. Similarly, if you have the best full forward, or best full back, your chances improve. We just happen to have the best ruckman in the competition supported by two of the best half dozen midfielders in the competition right now.  

Edited September 30, 20213 yr by La Dee-vina Comedia

19 hours ago, KysaiahMessiah said:

Garry Lyon said that a new definition needs to be found for the role Jacko played

There is. Unicorn. 

13 hours ago, DeeSpencer said:

I’m a Nank fan, I think he’s exactly the kind of ruck you’d want if you can’t have a superstar. But he’s just not an A grade ruck like Gawn, Goldstein, Nic Nat, Grundy.

He’s a very capable B grade type, and below Lynch, Riewoldt, Cotchin, Edwards, Houli, Vlastuin, Grimes from the best Richmond sides.

I’d argue Gawn is the first A grade ruck to win a flag since Brad Ottens at the Cats a decade ago. 

 

agreed. Hawthorn have won so many premierships without an A grade ruck, toiges and Brisbane as well. Yes West Coast with Cox and Dees with Max, but the common thread is extremely good midfields.

 

I thought Jackson was our ace before the game, but thats because of the lack of match ups. a bit like Fritsch. Doggies rucks were just hanging in there.