On 19/11/2020 at 06:40, dimmy said:

Some people simply cannot let the bloke leave the Club gracefully, because he didn't bucket the Club in his interview. However some simply have to have a cheap shot at the bloke as he leaves the building.

So what,if he has limited ability. He was draft pick 51 so knew he had to work his bum off to at least play a few games. Credit to his attitude and efforts !!!!!!

Who’s taking cheap shots? I think comments have been fair and balanced overall. There will always be outliers.

What do you want us to do? Suspend our critical faculties because he’s been delisted. We are allowed to criticise (as long as it’s not personal or abusive). It's not like we're speaking ill of the dead!

  On 19/11/2020 at 07:05, Better days ahead said:

Who’s taking cheap shots? I think comments have been fair and balanced overall. There will always be outliers.

What do you want us to do? Suspend our critical faculties because he’s been delisted. We are allowed to criticise (as long as it’s not personal or abusive). It's not like we're speaking ill of the dead!

But by definition, any criticism of a person must be personal. 

Edited November 19, 20204 yr by La Dee-vina Comedia

  On 18/11/2020 at 22:31, titan_uranus said:

Your anti-Lever bias is outstanding but if think May and Lever have "made us worse", I really don't think there's much point having any ongoing debates with you on the topic.

As far as I'm concerned, that position is wholly untenable. Our defence, on any fair metric, was superior in 2020 to what it was in 2018, when it was our biggest weakness. The argument that Frost/OMac in 2018 = preliminary final is a classic case of correlation vs causation.

I do think that Lever and May exceed Frost and Omac in what they provide the team. 
What I don’t know is the opportunity cost for the team given their far greater costs (salaries and draft picks traded)............

  On 19/11/2020 at 07:12, La Dee-vina Comedia said:

But by definition, any criticism of a person must be personal. 

I'll elaborate. I consider personal actions as disparaging someone's character unfairly. The comments on this thread are in the main in relation to performance and capability.

  On 19/11/2020 at 07:25, Gunna’s said:

I do think that Lever and May exceed Frost and Omac in what they provide the team. 
What I don’t know is the opportunity cost for the team given their far greater costs (salaries and draft picks traded)............

There's an opportunity cost associated with every good player. Anyone on a high salary or who cost high draft picks (whether as a draftee or in a trade) can have the same argument made: sure, they're good, but who knows what we could have done with that money/pick.

It's a pointless exercise.

  On 17/11/2020 at 23:05, binman said:

A sad announcement.

I have been following the dees passionately for forty odd years (defined by regular attendance at games) and in all sincerity Omac is one of my all time favorite MFC players.

My favorite demon players over my time of watching them are not necessarily among the best players in their respective team, indeed of my favorites probably only Robbie  was the best in the teams he played with. 

My favorite players are generally those whose effort and work ethic are perhaps greater attributes than their talent. Talent is overrated. Perhaps some might describe them as journeymen, a phrase I've never understood being used as a pejorative. 

Some of my favorites include:

• Ray Biffen (thanks Ray for signing my dees club song fable single) 
• Russel 'Rhino' Richardson (thanks Rhino for that game you won us at Princess Park after Leigh Matthews assaulted Steve Smith)
• Peter Giles (thanks Pete for taking on bigger opponents  week i week our - and your hair, of course) 
• Garry baker (what more needs to be said),
• Spud Dullard (best name in footy and thanks for rucking against the monsters of the 70s)
• Sugar Healy (thanks for being captain at tight time and unlike your brother remaining true)
• Jack Watts (thanks for your class - oh and you brilliant 2017 season which ensured PD had to use you avatar for a time)

All made terrific contributions to the club I have long loved, a club i could only dream of representing.  

And most important of all everyone them seem to be really great people. Respect.

And much respect Omac. Thanks for your contribution and joy you brought me. I really hope you continue your AFL journey. If not, no biggie, someone so smart and hard working will do great things.

And how many people get to play near on 100 games of football or play consecutive finals at a packed MCG heaving with delirious dees fans. Well played sir.  

One thing though. As i posted some time ago I tricked my family of naming our dog Oscar. But as my wife is German, unbeknownst to me, she registered his name as Oskar, which is the name on his dog tag. Apologies for that oversight Oscar. But I do wonder if its is fated and Oskar Baker will become one my favorites too. 

 

No wonder we never see eye to eye on players Binman. If your favourite players were Jack Watts amd Oscar Mcdonald then thats a comment im not sure i can take seriously. What about Matthew Bate or Gysberts? My favourite players are the ones who have a crack and put their body on the line. Watts and OMac never did that. And put simply they just werent very good. For the record my favourite players were Neitz, Farmer, Jeff White, Scott Thompson and Aaron Davey. You know, actually good players!!

People are so blinded by their loyalty that they can't see the forest for the trees. Many people on demonland said that Morton was the next prototype midfielder, Bate was the next pavlich, strauss the next gilbee, tapscott the next shannon hurn, blease the next brent Harvey, Watts the next riewoldt. the list goes on and on and on. im so over it. The last thing i want to do is celebrate [censored] players. As a club our culture is terrible and people like you that like Mcdonald and Watts because they are 'nice boys' is half the problem with our club. How costly was it to hang on to these players for so long when they clearly aren't up to the grade.

  On 19/11/2020 at 05:29, JimmyGadson said:

 

 

 

All I can say is that you just have absolutely no idea what you're on about if you can't see the difference in the way Oscar's career has been handled compared to those you mentioned. 

Surely I don't need to baby you through Oscar's case study again. Did I ever once mention that it's unprecedented for players to be delisted under the age of 25? 

How on earth are you unable to differentiate between the way Oscar's career was managed vs Newton's?

 

 

You've obviously not improved from your prior incarnations, and I'm not going to debate with you further. I've established in fifteen seconds that you're talking utter [censored], and am not going to bother to be drawn further. 

  On 19/11/2020 at 05:05, Deemania since 56 said:

Frosty, for starters ... he may have hit the mark earlier - several years ago - probably would have achieved far more as he had talents and was our excitement machine - getting better by the game. Frosty was an ideal subject to develop - but alas, Goodwin decided that it was not to be so he underwent his own remediation and intensity for the ball. 

What nonsense. Frost was always limited, and we could hardly ship him fast enough when the offer for him came. 

And he was injured for a good portion of the couple of years that OMac played most of his games so it's just not valid to say Oscar was getting games ahead of him. And even if he was, it was because he's a better player than Frost. He probably did what he was told, for a start. 

But to suggest we should have put more games into him rather than Oscar is ridiculous. 

  On 17/11/2020 at 23:05, binman said:

A sad announcement.

I have been following the dees passionately for forty odd years (defined by regular attendance at games) and in all sincerity Omac is one of my all time favorite MFC players.

My favorite demon players over my time of watching them are not necessarily among the best players in their respective team, indeed of my favorites probably only Robbie  was the best in the teams he played with. 

My favorite players are generally those whose effort and work ethic are perhaps greater attributes than their talent. Talent is overrated. Perhaps some might describe them as journeymen, a phrase I've never understood being used as a pejorative. 

Some of my favorites include:

• Ray Biffen (thanks Ray for signing my dees club song fable single) 
• Russel 'Rhino' Richardson (thanks Rhino for that game you won us at Princess Park after Leigh Matthews assaulted Steve Smith)
• Peter Giles (thanks Pete for taking on bigger opponents  week i week our - and your hair, of course) 
• Garry baker (what more needs to be said),
• Spud Dullard (best name in footy and thanks for rucking against the monsters of the 70s)
• Sugar Healy (thanks for being captain at tight time and unlike your brother remaining true)
• Jack Watts (thanks for your class - oh and you brilliant 2017 season which ensured PD had to use you avatar for a time)

All made terrific contributions to the club I have long loved, a club i could only dream of representing.  

And most important of all everyone them seem to be really great people. Respect.

And much respect Omac. Thanks for your contribution and joy you brought me. I really hope you continue your AFL journey. If not, no biggie, someone so smart and hard working will do great things.

And how many people get to play near on 100 games of football or play consecutive finals at a packed MCG heaving with delirious dees fans. Well played sir.  

One thing though. As i posted some time ago I tricked my family of naming our dog Oscar. But as my wife is German, unbeknownst to me, she registered his name as Oskar, which is the name on his dog tag. Apologies for that oversight Oscar. But I do wonder if its is fated and Oskar Baker will become one my favorites too. 

 

Great post, Binman. I'm German, of course, and I don't blame her for spelling Oskar correctly. What kind of a dog, by the way? We have a Swiss White Shepherd. With you 100% about Oscar. I also loved  Ray Biffin, Peter Giles and Gary Baker. I also throw in Henry Coles, Stephen Icke and Steven Smith, all great unsung heroes, and, Tony Sullivan...I could go on....

  On 19/11/2020 at 10:16, dieter said:

Great post, Binman. I'm German, of course, and I don't blame her for spelling Oskar correctly. What kind of a dog, by the way? We have a Swiss White Shepherd. With you 100% about Oscar. I also loved  Ray Biffin, Peter Giles and Gary Baker. I also throw in Henry Coles, Stephen Icke and Steven Smith, all great unsung heroes, and, Tony Sullivan...I could go on....

Labradoodle. Henry Coles was a ripper. Number 6?

I thought about putting icke down, but he was a cut above the others I listed I reckon. Super player. I reckon langdon is the best recruit we've had since icke. 

  On 19/11/2020 at 10:12, Undeeterred said:

What nonsense. Frost was always limited, and we could hardly ship him fast enough when the offer for him came. 

And he was injured for a good portion of the couple of years that OMac played most of his games so it's just not valid to say Oscar was getting games ahead of him. And even if he was, it was because he's a better player than Frost. He probably did what he was told, for a start. 

But to suggest we should have put more games into him rather than Oscar is ridiculous. 

No, not ridiculous, just unfortunate coaching and opportunity. This is an opinion that attracts some support; I am one of those supporters. Do you deny me that perspective or is this a forum of ideas and thoughts? By the way, OMac received the games by good fortune alone - yet there was no improvement. 

 

  On 19/11/2020 at 09:27, Dr.D said:

No wonder we never see eye to eye on players Binman. If your favourite players were Jack Watts amd Oscar Mcdonald then thats a comment im not sure i can take seriously. What about Matthew Bate or Gysberts? My favourite players are the ones who have a crack and put their body on the line. Watts and OMac never did that. And put simply they just werent very good. For the record my favourite players were Neitz, Farmer, Jeff White, Scott Thompson and Aaron Davey. You know, actually good players!!

People are so blinded by their loyalty that they can't see the forest for the trees. Many people on demonland said that Morton was the next prototype midfielder, Bate was the next pavlich, strauss the next gilbee, tapscott the next shannon hurn, blease the next brent Harvey, Watts the next riewoldt. the list goes on and on and on. im so over it. The last thing i want to do is celebrate [censored] players. As a club our culture is terrible and people like you that like Mcdonald and Watts because they are 'nice boys' is half the problem with our club. How costly was it to hang on to these players for so long when they clearly aren't up to the grade.

Where does one even start with a post like this? Is there even any point trying?  ?

Ok I stand by my previous post, however, Oscar played 81 games more than I and did play some reasonably good games. He also played some shockers. If Melbourne are going to participate meaningfully and challenge for a flag players like Oscar cannot cut it. At the end of the day probably maximised what ability he had and 81 games is a good effort.

I'll leave it at that!

Oscar is clearly a nice young man. Just not up to the required playing standard.

Like others I wish him all the best for the future.

I guess with Oscar gone ANB will get double the love. 

  On 19/11/2020 at 22:07, Deemania since 56 said:

No, not ridiculous, just unfortunate coaching and opportunity. This is an opinion that attracts some support; I am one of those supporters. Do you deny me that perspective or is this a forum of ideas and thoughts? By the way, OMac received the games by good fortune alone - yet there was no improvement. 

 

Of course you’re allowed your perspective. I just think it’s wildly wrong. Frost is, was and will be a dreadful footballer. 

  On 20/11/2020 at 10:05, Rab D Nesbitt said:

I guess with Oscar gone ANB will get double the love. 

no it will be evenly distributed between himself AVB and hunt :)))

Oscar discussed as one of the 10 best DFA's available:  best-delisted-free-agents

"A victim of Melbourne’s aggressive recruiting in defence. Just 24 and has a stack of potential if he can put it all together. Managed 60 games from 2016-18 but just 19 since with the arrivals of Steven May and Jake Lever. Again, looks a great option for a side like the Western Bulldogs, who are looking to add more defensive support. However a side like Carlton or even Gold Coast could be just as appropriate. He could play a role at the Suns like that of Rory Thompson, who continues to battle injury in his bid to return to the elite level".

Feeling more optimistic for him.  I'm a bit surprised Sydney aren't mentioned.

Hope he gets another gig.

  On 19/11/2020 at 09:27, Dr.D said:

No wonder we never see eye to eye on players Binman. If your favourite players were Jack Watts amd Oscar Mcdonald then thats a comment im not sure i can take seriously. What about Matthew Bate or Gysberts? My favourite players are the ones who have a crack and put their body on the line. Watts and OMac never did that. And put simply they just werent very good. For the record my favourite players were Neitz, Farmer, Jeff White, Scott Thompson and Aaron Davey. You know, actually good players!!

Not something Id associate with Davey unfortunately.

 

  On 23/11/2020 at 20:48, Lucifer's Hero said:

Oscar discussed as one of the 10 best DFA's available:  best-delisted-free-agents

"A victim of Melbourne’s aggressive recruiting in defence. Just 24 and has a stack of potential if he can put it all together. Managed 60 games from 2016-18 but just 19 since with the arrivals of Steven May and Jake Lever. Again, looks a great option for a side like the Western Bulldogs, who are looking to add more defensive support. However a side like Carlton or even Gold Coast could be just as appropriate. He could play a role at the Suns like that of Rory Thompson, who continues to battle injury in his bid to return to the elite level".

Feeling more optimistic for him.  I'm a bit surprised Sydney aren't mentioned.

Hope he gets another gig.

I caught his interview with SEN yesterday (replay). He came across as quite intelligent so even if he doesn't get picked up as a DFA he has that smarts to re-train and find an occupation post footy career.

  On 23/11/2020 at 20:48, Lucifer's Hero said:

Oscar discussed as one of the 10 best DFA's available:  best-delisted-free-agents

"A victim of Melbourne’s aggressive recruiting in defence. Just 24 and has a stack of potential if he can put it all together. Managed 60 games from 2016-18 but just 19 since with the arrivals of Steven May and Jake Lever. Again, looks a great option for a side like the Western Bulldogs, who are looking to add more defensive support. However a side like Carlton or even Gold Coast could be just as appropriate. He could play a role at the Suns like that of Rory Thompson, who continues to battle injury in his bid to return to the elite level".

Feeling more optimistic for him.  I'm a bit surprised Sydney aren't mentioned.

Hope he gets another gig.

Totally agree with the comment that Omac has a stack of potential and is every chance to get picked up by another club and establish himself there.

Players get delisted all the time and some get another shot at AFL. 

Take Mitch Brown. A key position player, taken at pick 15 by Geelong and delisted by them at the same age as Omac is now (24). Went to the VFL for a season before being drafted by the bombers. Being a big Vivaldi fan, he played four seasons with Essendon, before they too delisted him. And then ironically we drafted him - and have just extended his contract for another season. The classic journeyman.

I reckon Omac was pretty stiff to come out of contract when he did and unlucky to be delisted by us.  

Obviously Lever and May being recruited made things tough (though it is fair to say their recruitment was related to the fact omac is a serviceable player not a star), but I actually think recruiting Ben Brown was a big factor.

With Brown in, we suddenly have a surfeit of forwards - Brown x 2, TMac, Jackson and Weeds. Which means that our best player not to play last season, Petty will almost certainly go back (which will be terrific for us - huge potential as player, an excellent mark, good one on one and will slot into the true full back role perfectly.).

Add in Tomlinson, who is too slow for the position we recruited him for (what's that about?) and the possibility Tmac might also go back (ye gads) and we suddenly also have a surfeit of key defenders.

In order of my ratings, contenders next season for key big defensive positions are: May, Lever, Petty, Tomlinson and Tmac (who remarkably we couldn't trade, almost wins a Coleman in 2018 and can't find a suitor two years later).  No need for a sixth key defender.  So goodbye Omac. That's footy. Particularly at the bottom end of the pay grade. 

Edited November 23, 20204 yr by binman

  On 23/11/2020 at 23:09, binman said:

I reject the narrative Omac was 'gifted' games of AFL football and does not have a future at AFL level. And I also reject the argument that the fact we delisted him and there wasn't immediate interest from another club is proof of that narrative.  Players get delisted all the time and some get another shot at AFL. 

Take Mitch Brown. A key position player, taken at pick 15 by Geelong and delisted by them at the same age as Omac is now (24). Went to the VFL for a season before being drafted by the bombers. Being a big Vivaldi fan, he played four seasons with Essendon, before they too delisted him. And then ironically we drafted him - and have just extended his contract for another season. The classic journeyman.

I reckon Omac was pretty stiff to come out of contract when he did and unlucky to be delisted by us.  

Obviously Lever and May being recruited made things tough (though it is fair to say their recruitment was related to the fact omac is a serviceable player not a star), but I actually think recruiting Ben Brown was a big factor.

With Brown in, we suddenly have a surfeit of forwards - Brown x 2, TMac, Jackson and Weeds. Which means that our best player not to play last season, Petty will almost certainly go back (which will be terrific for us - huge potential as player, an excellent mark, good one on one and will slot into the true full back role perfectly.).

Add in Tomlinson, who is too slow for the position we recruited him for (what's that about?) and the possibility Tmac might also go back (ye gads) and we suddenly also have a surfeit of key defenders.

In order of my ratings, contenders next season for key big defensive positions are: May, Lever, Petty, Tomlinson and Tmac (who remarkably we couldn't trade, almost wins a Coleman in 2018 and can't find a suitor two years later).  No need for a sixth key defender.  So goodbye Omac. That's footy. Particularly at the bottom end of the pay grade. 

Umm, not sure why you quoted my post which was positive and supportive of Oscar and continuation of his footy career..

For the record I agree with your comments.

Edited November 23, 20204 yr by Lucifer's Hero

  On 23/11/2020 at 23:14, Lucifer's Hero said:

Umm, not sure why you quoted my post which was positive and supportive of Oscar and continuation of his footy career..

For the record I agree with your comments.

Sorry, LH wasn't suggesting you knocking OMac. Though i can see why you thought i was! I'll edit to make that clear

  On 23/11/2020 at 22:56, Better days ahead said:

I caught his interview with SEN yesterday (replay). He came across as quite intelligent so even if he doesn't get picked up as a DFA he has that smarts to re-train and find an occupation post footy career.

From memory he score in the 90s in the VCE (or whatever it is called), so yes quiet intelligent and I'm sure he's been doing some sort of study while playing, as most do. However, I can certainly see him on a list for the next year or 2, even just as handy back up. 

  On 23/11/2020 at 20:48, Lucifer's Hero said:

Oscar discussed as one of the 10 best DFA's available:  best-delisted-free-agents

"A victim of Melbourne’s aggressive recruiting in defence. Just 24 and has a stack of potential if he can put it all together. Managed 60 games from 2016-18 but just 19 since with the arrivals of Steven May and Jake Lever. Again, looks a great option for a side like the Western Bulldogs, who are looking to add more defensive support. However a side like Carlton or even Gold Coast could be just as appropriate. He could play a role at the Suns like that of Rory Thompson, who continues to battle injury in his bid to return to the elite level".

Feeling more optimistic for him.  I'm a bit surprised Sydney aren't mentioned.

Hope he gets another gig.

considering they just delisted fox and traded aliir, who i thought was strong and played 14/17 games this year theres no chance he's headed there. theyre looking for a forward as tommy mccartin looks the goods at CHB