Farewell Sam Weideman

[Macca 17,007]

7 minutes ago, Luther said:

Brisbane did it too with Brown, Bradshaw and Lynch. Worked pretty well for them!

Good point Luther

I'm sure it's been done at other times but that Essendon era and the Lions era (which you pointed out) led to the ultimate success

However, I reckon we'll just see more of the same with LJ & T-Mac doing the roaming with Sam as the stay-at-home (possibly rotated in and out of the side with Ben Brown ... as time goes on)

So, we've got the depleted Pies & the frontrunning Bombers next up.  Is there time for some minor experimentation? ha ha

 

[Altona-demon 321]

Just a post to share some analysis of the video highlights of Sam on AFL Stats Pro

Discover - StatsPro (afl.com.au)

Involvements Analysis:

1. 1:19 (1st Quarter): Gently pushed under the ball - but misses a mark he should take.  Follows up with second effort to make close proximity tackle (split contest/territory gain)

2. 2 minutes into 2nd Quarter: Ball down the line.  TMac goes at the ball, Weid stays back and makes immediate behind tackle once possession is gained by Brisbane player. (territory gain/split contest)

3. Contested possession (although very debateable) 2 minutes into the 3rd quarter. Nice handball to a bursting Max Gawn.  Working high up the ground (almost defensive 50)

4. Uncontested mark on transition play off half back - 12 minutes into the 3rd quarter. 

5. Contested possession - gets in front of defender and drops (?) mark he maybe should have taken. Second effort to handball to space and advantage of Melb player. 

6. Fourth quarter: catches touched kick, explodes and creates separation, then turns the ball over to Lions. 

7. Fourth quarter: groundball get and low handball to Sparrow - which Sparrow spills and then kicks an unlikely goal from edge of 50. 

Summary points:

1. He is working very high up the ground, and also being able to get back into forward 50 and create a contest. That's a tick. 

2. Game is suffering from inaccuracy - but he appears to be in the right place at the right time. So promising. 

 

 

[Axis of Bob 11,836]

1 hour ago, dazzledavey36 said:

I'm watching the likes Ben King, Aaron Naughton, Oscar  Allen and Harry McKay speed right past him in terms of talent and impact of games. Not only that, the first 3 players I named are at least 2-3 years younger then Sam. McKay came from the same draft as Weideman and he'll go close to winning the Coleman this year.

You're comparing the very best young key forwards in the game to make the point that Weideman isn't making an impact. Those things are completely unrelated to each other. It's like saying that Neitz didn't make an impact on the game because there are guys like Wayne Carey around. Or "I'm watching the likes of Matthew Rowell, Noah Anderson, Trent Rivers and Andrew Brayshaw speed right past him in terms of talent and impact on games". They aren't related events and has nothing to do with whether they are worth their place in the side.

 

[Slartibartfast 17,336]

On 6/5/2021 at 4:21 PM, jnrmac said:

He should be ripping it up at Casey and bar one game I can recall he's never done that. We are probably all seduced by his finals game against Geelong where he attacked the ball and the packs and kicked I think 3 goals. He's never done that before or since and its like we're waiting waiting waiting for it to happen again.

 

 

There is no doubt that his game against Geelong was out of the box, he was close to bog in a final.  But the mistake I think is to measure all his games against this game.  In a block of 9 games last year he kicked 18 goals as our only big specialist forward against the oppositions best backs where he was often double teamed.  He ran out of puff but so did a lot of the team. 

That block of games in difficult circumstances and against good opposition has shown he's got the attributes to play good AFL footy and contribute and whilst he hasn't kicked a lot of goals he's been part of a forward line that has been very effective.  We embrace team footy and role playing this year but some don't seem to extend that concept to Weideman.

In addition, as has been stated, he is our future.  I think he'll hold his spot in the team regardless but BB getting back has been complicated by a poor last game for Casey and not having played since.

[Axis of Bob 11,836]

19 minutes ago, Luther said:

Brisbane did it too with Brown, Bradshaw and Lynch. Worked pretty well for them!

Lynch retired in 2004, which is 17 years ago.

The game has gone through 3, perhaps 4 tactical revolutions in that time, so these examples are no longer relevant. 

[dazzledavey36 55,001]

10 minutes ago, Axis of Bob said:

You're comparing the very best young key forwards in the game to make the point that Weideman isn't making an impact. Those things are completely unrelated to each other. It's like saying that Neitz didn't make an impact on the game because there are guys like Wayne Carey around. Or "I'm watching the likes of Matthew Rowell, Noah Anderson, Trent Rivers and Andrew Brayshaw speed right past him in terms of talent and impact on games". They aren't related events and has nothing to do with whether they are worth their place in the side.

 

He was a pick 9 in a draft that's now been seen as one of the quality drafts to be seen. Same draft as Hipwood and McKay mind you. Both those players are performing to the standard the should be now. The club has invested a lot with not much in return.

I'll steal a quote about Sam Weideman that I stole from another Melbourne forum thay was discussed on First Crack last night. I don't know how much clear cut it's needs to be made out.

He's simply not performing to the standard he should be. 

They had a stat on First Crack last night.
Weid has never scored average or above ranking points for his position relative to his age.
But more to the point, as a 24 year old KPF, this year his ranking points average is almost 60% worse than the average for his position.

 

Edited June 7, 2021 by dazzledavey36

[Axis of Bob 11,836]

4 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

He was a pick 9 in a draft that's now been seen as one of the quality drafts to be seen. Same draft as Hipwood and McKay mind you. Both those players are performing to the standard he should be now. 

And yet the teams he has been an important part of have kicked 94, 95, 87 and 97 points, including against 2 of the top 3 teams in the league. Often it's not about possessions.

 

4 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

They had a stat on First Crack last night.
Weid has never scored average or above ranking points for his position relative to his age.
But more to the point, as a 24 year old KPF, this year his ranking points average is almost 60% worse than the average for his position.

AFL ranking points? These clearly favour high possession players over low possession players. It says that the top 3 players in the league are Jack Macrae, Touk Miller and Mitch Duncan. It says Chris Mayne is a better player than Nat Fyfe. It says that Jarman Impey is better than Dustin Martin. It has Jack Darling as the second best key forward in the league.

Weideman also currently has a higher AFL rating than Ben Brown this year.

The point I'm making is that 4 games of AFL ratings is, at best, a pretty poor representation of a player's value to his team.

[one_demon 826]

He just seems easy to defend 

[dworship 3,342]

14 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

He's simply not performing to the standard he should be. 

 

Dazzle you and a number of posters in this thread keep harping on about how Weid is no good / a bust/ disappointing. The statement above is just another iteration of the same thing. What it should read is "He is not performing to the standard we want from him". It's clear that you and many others have run out of patience. If you go back through this thread you might think I'm happy with where he is at, I'm not. But I don't need to SHOUT what he isn't doing. However, I have patience and if the selection committee continue to play him he will either improve or fall away and be replaced. The way everyone is carrying on regarding Weid you would think the sky was falling and Goodwin should be sacked .....oh, wait.

[Macca 17,007]

31 minutes ago, Axis of Bob said:

Lynch retired in 2004, which is 17 years ago.

The game has gone through 3, perhaps 4 tactical revolutions in that time, so these examples are no longer relevant. 

The basis of the argument is having versatile players who can play a variety of roles.  We've already got T-Mac & LJ playing these roles so why not Weideman? (that question isn't directed at you)

The problem I possibly foresee is the MC losing patience with Sam and we go through the same process with Ben Brown (which may or may not work)

So we're playing finals (unless we fall off a cliff) so the sooner we get our forward line settled,  the better (in my view)

Meanwhile, the debate about Weideman's output will go on ad nauseum

I'll say it again that we need to get Sam more involved in the game but if the MC are happy with him playing a sort of decoy role,  well and good.  If so, they need to stick with him

[Demon17 5,188]

14 minutes ago, Axis of Bob said:

And yet the teams he has been an important part of have kicked 94, 95, 87 and 97 points, including against 2 of the top 3 teams in the league. Often it's not about possessions.

 

AFL ranking points? These clearly favour high possession players over low possession players. It says that the top 3 players in the league are Jack Macrae, Touk Miller and Mitch Duncan. It says Chris Mayne is a better player than Nat Fyfe. It says that Jarman Impey is better than Dustin Martin. It has Jack Darling as the second best key forward in the league.

Weideman also currently has a higher AFL rating than Ben Brown this year.

The point I'm making is that 4 games of AFL ratings is, at best, a pretty poor representation of a player's value to his team.

Great posting Axis of Bob summarinsing the dilemma.

Goodwins presser of Friday night highlighted that the coaching team has the same unresolved issue I thought as the supporters and its a work in progress. Weideman competes in the air and brings it to ground which i suspect they value highly given our current forward players - spargo, Pickett, bullen etc.  i.e just halve the contest at least and let the talent do the rest.

Having said that, against Harris Andrews standard defenders, halving can be a challenge

But they still have to decide I guess, or not, and run with Weid maybe seeing BB as a bit one-dimensional possibly?

[Ted Lasso 19,521]

1 minute ago, Demon17 said:

Great posting Axis of Bob summarinsing the dilemma.

Goodwins presser of Friday night highlighted that the coaching team has the same unresolved issue I thought as the supporters and its a work in progress. Weideman competes in the air and brings it to ground which i suspect they value highly given our current forward players - spargo, Pickett, bullen etc.  i.e just halve the contest at least and let the talent do the rest.

Having said that, against Harris Andrews standard defenders, halving can be a challenge

But they still have to decide I guess, or not, and run with Weid maybe seeing BB as a bit one-dimensional possibly?

 

I think the club ultimately will give Ben Brown another run at it to see if we function a bit better, i think it's fair to say his output goal wise is likely to be higher than Weids, so it'll really be a question of if what Weid brings to The table is worth more to the structure than the 2-3 goals Ben Brown is likely to offer each game 

[loges 6,767]

2 hours ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Well said.

This is his 6th year at AFL level. I'm watching the likes Ben King, Aaron Naughton, Oscar  Allen and Harry McKay speed right past him in terms of talent and impact of games. Not only that, the first 3 players I named are at least 2-3 years younger then Sam. McKay came from the same draft as Weideman and he'll go close to winning the Coleman this year.

I've been a supporter of Sam, but excuses are running out for him. We have a 60 goal a year key forward who's ready to go and right now if it was up to me he'd be playing right now.

Also Eric Hipwood drafted the same year.

[dazzledavey36 55,001]

7 minutes ago, Axis of Bob said:

And yet the teams he has been an important part of have kicked 94, 95, 87 and 97 points, including against 2 of the top 3 teams in the league. Often it's not about possessions.

 

AFL ranking points? These clearly favour high possession players over low possession players. It says that the top 3 players in the league are Jack Macrae, Touk Miller and Mitch Duncan. It says Chris Mayne is a better player than Nat Fyfe. It says that Jarman Impey is better than Dustin Martin. It has Jack Darling as the second best key forward in the league.

Weideman also currently has a higher AFL rating than Ben Brown this year.

The point I'm making is that 4 games of AFL ratings is, at best, a pretty poor representation of a player's value to his team.

I never said it was about possessions?

It's all good and well to says it's all about bringing the ball to ground, but at some stage he'll need to start impacting the scoreboard like good solid key forwards otherwise he'll find himself out of the team

Ben Brown right now is a 60 goal per forward who's been able to do that for 3 years in a row. Brown may not be the player he once use to be. But as Montagna pointed out last night, for us to be a complete team then surely it's Ben Brown as first choice.

Also I'm still intrigued about you saying we shouldn't be comparing him to the best young key forwards of the game in terms of impact,  even though I mentioned those key forwards were in fact younger then Weids which is already a concern in itself considering he too was a high draft pick like them. But anyhow, what's the right comparison for him then? I named McKay and Hipwood as as two who were in the same draft but taken couple of picks later.

I like Weid, I really do and want him to make it. I have been his biggest supporter even right through 2019 where he was simply disappointing. The first time I really questioned his ability and stay mentally in the game was at the end of last season when in the last 4 games of the year he kicked 1 single goal, had 7 marks in total and averaged 6 disposals for all 4 games. 

If he's playing a decoy role up forward in limiting the likes of Andrews, then so be it. Would be good if coaching staff could maybe clarify that? then at least it absolutely makes sense in his current role because then relieves expectation in a way.

I had Weideman as an out this week. But the more I thought about it, the more I think they'll give him another chance. If he's role is to negate Darcy Moore then it'll be a good match up.

[Demon17 5,188]

3 minutes ago, Dwight Schrute said:

 

I think the club ultimately will give Ben Brown another run at it to see if we function a bit better, i think it's fair to say his output goal wise is likely to be higher than Weids, so it'll really be a question of if what Weid brings to The table is worth more to the structure than the 2-3 goals Ben Brown is likely to offer each game 

Thats a great point.  I always see BB good for a couple of goals each game  esp given his kicking reliability. Match Cttee would be fascinating to sit in on these day.

[dazzledavey36 55,001]

19 minutes ago, dworship said:

Dazzle you and a number of posters in this thread keep harping on about how Weid is no good / a bust/ disappointing. The statement above is just another iteration of the same thing. What it should read is "He is not performing to the standard we want from him". It's clear that you and many others have run out of patience. If you go back through this thread you might think I'm happy with where he is at, I'm not. But I don't need to SHOUT what he isn't doing. However, I have patience and if the selection committee continue to play him he will either improve or fall away and be replaced. The way everyone is carrying on regarding Weid you would think the sky was falling and Goodwin should be sacked .....oh, wait.

Mate, seriously?

I'm not shouting about it at all about this topic. I have been measured in my response around my concerns with Weideman on the back of his performance this year. If I am not allowed to express that on here then I'll happy close my account for good.

Read the response. All discussions have been good and well written out by everyone.

Edited June 7, 2021 by dazzledavey36

[Macca 17,007]

9 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Mate, seriously?

I'm not shouting about it at all about this topic. I have been measured in my response around my concerns with Weideman on the back of his performance this year. If I am not allowed to express that on here then I'll happy close my account for good.

Read the response. All discussions have been good and well written out by everyone.

Your comments are valued

The issue I have with Weideman is more the way he is used.  I've always seen him as an athletic 3rd forward type but has he ever played that role?

The reality is that he is often in and out of the side being played as a permanent stay-at-home forward (the No.1 or No.2 role)

But I'm in a different camp ... he stays because the MC are seemingly asking him to play a role for team purposes.  And if that role is being fulfilled in the MC's eyes, well and good. 

We don't get to see his athleticism enough but the team comes first

[Dee Zephyr 19,267]

After the Carlton game someone posted the number of times our forwards were used as inside 50 targets, from memory we went to Brown 17 times against Carlton. Was wondering since then how many times we’ve gone to Weid as an inside 50 target and came across this. I’m nowhere near tactically advanced as some on here but is it a case of sharing the load inside 50 and specific roles. These numbers especially the last 3 weeks indicate Weid isn’t being used as our number one key forward. 

[drdrake 3,178]

13 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

 

Ben Brown right now is a 60 goal per forward who's been able to do that for 3 years in a row. Brown may not be the player he once use to be. But as Montagna pointed out last night, for us to be a complete team then surely it's Ben Brown as first choice.

 

He was a 60 goal a year forward, if he was still that North wouldn't have traded him.  What Montagna fails to think about is what effect bringing Brown in will have on the other forwards.  I just think what Weiderman offers compliments what the other forwards offer and is different from a TMac/Fritsch/Jackson.  That is the difference between the 2021 demons to other years it is about the team and not the individual, Weiderman should have kicked 2 on the weekend didn't but the team still kicked 15 against a side that has won 7 straight, we scored on 57% of our inside 50m entries, even the first half it was 50% so the forward line is functioning very well.

I like everyone wants him to start hanging onto a few marks and nailing those goals he should kick, but I'm also concerned about change when something is working

[Smokey 4,389]

When little is going wrong with the team holistically, it makes sense that we turn our focus to our handful of perceived weaknesses right now. SW is certainly that. 

I've said it before, but I'll say it again. SW has not had a kind career to date as far as development from continuity goes. Most players of his brethren have played an entire seasons more games than him. I think a lot of people underestimate the effect that can have on a key position player. 

I'm not in the camp of defending SW's current output by any means, but all I would say is I'd rather us be patient and give him as many games as possible. There's little doubt that he has the means to become a very good forward, something just needs to click. You just know if we traded him he'd start having 40+ seasons pretty quickly, and at age 24 he has plenty of them ahead. 

I don't know if I'm alone here, but BB so far as been pretty uninspiring. To rock up to the two's and get embarrassed with a 4 touch game and no goals tells me everything I need to know about him - he ain't gonna be the one to rip apart the finals for us. Not saying SW will be either , but what I've seen from him to date tells me he is close to being that player, while BB has proven to me he definitely won't be. SW had a cracking 2018 finals campaign, so at least we know he is capable of it on the big stage. 

Bottom line from me is - be patient. We're 11-1 and beating the best teams, so the fact is we can afford to bide our time playing SW until it clicks (and of course it will, you're an [censored] if you don't think he's going to come good). If it starts effecting us winning games, I'll reconsider my position, but until then we should be pumping as many games into the 24 year old long term KPF prospect as possible. 
 

Edited June 7, 2021 by Smokey

[Mono 455]

It all comes down to what the club thinks internally, what Weideman's role is and does he fulfil it.

I suspect though that Brown will get a run of games sometime. Through injury?

[dazzledavey36 55,001]

1 hour ago, Macca said:

Your comments are valued

The issue I have with Weideman is more the way he is used.  I've always seen him as an athletic 3rd forward type but has he ever played that role?

The reality is that he is often in and out of the side being played as a permanent stay-at-home forward (the No.1 or No.2 role)

But I'm in a different camp ... he stays because the MC are seemingly asking him to play a role for team purposes.  And if that role is being fulfilled in the MC's eyes, well and good. 

We don't get to see his athleticism enough but the team comes first

Me too. This is why I think think the Weideman/Brown combo could still work.

Let's just say if Brown was playing last Friday night, Andrews immediately goes to Brown leaving Weideman to the the 2nd and 3rd best defender. Weideman then gets off the lease and is able to impact further.

Goodwin talks about forward cohesion and Weideman and Brown have played one game together at AFL level.

Weideman, McDonald and Brown is a pretty strong forward set up.

Edited June 7, 2021 by dazzledavey36

[Bobby McKenzie 2,385]

Sam is trying very hard and leading well BUT he has to hang on to those marks. Too many being dropped lately. Jackson too at present must hang on to his marks but boy he is going to be a ripper very soon.

[Macca 17,007]

7 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Me too. This is why I think think the Weideman/Brown combo could still work.

Let's just say if Brown was playing last Friday night, Andrews immediately goes to Brown leaving Weideman to the the 2nd and 3rd best defender. Weideman then gets off the lease and is able to impact further.

Goodwin talks about forward cohesion and Weideman and Brown have played one game together at AFL level.

Weideman, McDonald and Brown is a pretty strong forward set up.

The minute Roos put Hogan on the ball many of us were holding our breath but it worked straight off

Weideman shouldn't be seen as a one trick pony ... not sure about having 3 permanent talls in the forward (along with LJ) but I like your thinking anyway

What I'd like to see is for 10-15 minute allotments,  2 or 3 times a game,  we see Weideman as a high half forward and a link to the forwards further afield.  LJ or T-Mac could play deep in that time whilst the other playing a roaming role (as they both do now)

Gets him into the game,  his hands on the ball with a few cheap uncontested marks and then go from there

As it stands,  whenever he goes for a mark in the role that he plays it's nearly always in a contested situation.  And all we hear are the supporters wanting him to 'clunk' marks.  Rinse & repeat

We want the bloke to develop we need to change things up ... or, leave him in that decoy sort of role for the rest of the season.  I wouldn't drop him unless he goes completely missing

[Demon Dynasty 17,109]

47 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

 

Weideman, McDonald and Brown is a pretty strong forward set up.

Not a big fan of this combo.  I have no hard evidence to back this up but from all the visuals over the years, my impression (rightly or wrongly) is that they are too often flying for the same mark and spoiling each other.

I have no answer for why.  Maybe similar running patterns?

I also don't believe there's room for both Weid & BB in the same team as T-Mac when he's in  (this year is obviously a lock unless injured...touch wood).

Both are pretty awful at ground level and also at defending / pressuring inside 50.

I don't think we can afford that plus Fritschkrieg not so good in this area either.  That would make pretty much 50% of our regular forward line ineffective once the ball hits the deck and/or is turned over to the opp (if all of T-Mac, Weid & BB were in that is).

So yeh we need to sort the best combo out in the remaining half and preferably well before the final round in order for that combo to settle.

Who knows, our best forward set up might not have either BB or the Weid in it.  Just good old Tommy with LJ as the secondary resting cameo TF.

Edited June 7, 2021 by Rusty Nails