On 10/1/2020 at 4:09 PM, picket fence said:

Yeah well the club seems incapable of making the so called "Ruthless" decisions it claims! I would advocate a Norf style cleanout. I could name about 10 who just should not be on the list next year!

You want to start from the bottom? That isn't ruthless, it's something else entirely. 

One of the commonalities among all of the recent successful teams is that they went through a period of not quite making the grade when it seemed like they should.

Throughout these periods, those teams didn't flinch. They made smart decisions and chipped away at their deficiencies.

Hardwick had seven - what many here would call failed - seasons at Richmond before breaking through.

Had Richmond jumped the gun and removed Hardwick, I doubt they would have had anywhere near the same success. That's not because his coaching skills are any better than the next guy but because when you make significant change in an organisation, it's not a free hit.

If you lose ten guys from any organisation, that has an effect on everyone. It's not that substantial change should never happen, but you'd want to be damn sure - like North Melbourne probably are - that rebuilding your team, both from an on-field and cultural/morale standpoint is what you want.

I don't think this is where our team is currently at. There are many areas that need improvement but let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater.

7 hours ago, Cheesy D. Pun said:

You want to start from the bottom? That isn't ruthless, it's something else entirely. 

One of the commonalities among all of the recent successful teams is that they went through a period of not quite making the grade when it seemed like they should.

Throughout these periods, those teams didn't flinch. They made smart decisions and chipped away at their deficiencies.

Hardwick had seven - what many here would call failed - seasons at Richmond before breaking through.

Had Richmond jumped the gun and removed Hardwick, I doubt they would have had anywhere near the same success. That's not because his coaching skills are any better than the next guy but because when you make significant change in an organisation, it's not a free hit.

If you lose ten guys from any organisation, that has an effect on everyone. It's not that substantial change should never happen, but you'd want to be damn sure - like North Melbourne probably are - that rebuilding your team, both from an on-field and cultural/morale standpoint is what you want.

I don't think this is where our team is currently at. There are many areas that need improvement but let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater.

Great post 

13 hours ago, Roger Mellie said:

In the Jordan Lewis sense of campaigner, I assume.

I've met him a number of times (not recently) and have never discussed football with him. He doesn't strike me as a campaigner at all. He's quite aloof though. Maybe it's a white line thing

Yes I've never met hm so it's an unfair impression but he seems full of himself.  I enjoyed his after the siren miss in the final against Geelong.  The wink, the slice.

i think we have to be aiming younger we're not gaining anything by recruiting players to leave in 2 years just yet.id rather see a larger chunk from baker than sign a 32yo. polec and tom phillips (who im starting to like more and more as mihoeck news comes through) are better options and will be around for longer. unless theres someone we see available next year we need a stop gap for a season to get there then i'd be willing but surely you get someone now

For years we've had wing issues

Stretch, JKH, Cwagner, hunt, tomlinson, jones, brayshaw, bennell, off the top of my head, its time we settle it down

On 10/7/2020 at 9:31 AM, Pollyanna said:

Yes I've never met hm so it's an unfair impression but he seems full of himself.  I enjoyed his after the siren miss in the final against Geelong.  The wink, the slice.

If he's a winker, then I take it all back!

This is playing out similar to the Lewis situation but without the animosity. Sounds like we're prepared to offer him a year longer contract than the Hawks, which is what he is tossing up. 

While we need better onfield leadership, I'm hesitant to target a 32 year old who's game is built around running ability and kicking penetration. Thos are things footballers lose quickly when their body starts to slow. Look at Lewis, Jones, Vince etc. That said, as an UFA he costs us no draft pick, so not the worst option.

On 10/1/2020 at 5:07 PM, Spud said:

Sam Mitchell received 2 years at WC. If hadn't of retired after the first year, he possibly could have played in the 2018 flag instead of assistant coaching them to it?

West Coasts midfield improved by moving Priddis and Mitchell in the same season they played Yeo more through the middle and were much quicker 

8 minutes ago, Lord Travis said:

This is playing out similar to the Lewis situation but without the animosity. Sounds like we're prepared to offer him a year longer contract than the Hawks, which is what he is tossing up. 

While we need better onfield leadership, I'm hesitant to target a 32 year old who's game is built around running ability and kicking penetration. Thos are things footballers lose quickly when their body starts to slow. Look at Lewis, Jones, Vince etc. That said, as an UFA he costs us no draft pick, so not the worst option.

I reckon you could even look at it as a player/coach role for our wings. Would expect Smith will play less games in his second year and only a few in his third (if it's a 2+1 year deal), with him providing some great leadership and coaching to guys like Langdon, Baker, vandenBerg, Rivers, Salem, Hunt etc who are all wing options (in different ways).

With our coaching group likely reduced, it could be beneficial to us having guys like Smith and Jones around next year in those roles.

If we’re having to beg Smith to join us with a longer contract then we should back away from the deal. 

If we’re a 9th place team with a bright future bound for finals then he should be keen as mustard to join.

If he’s not, let’s find someone else 

19 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

If we’re having to beg Smith to join us with a longer contract then we should back away from the deal. 

If we’re a 9th place team with a bright future bound for finals then he should be keen as mustard to join.

If he’s not, let’s find someone else 

In fairness its the only club he knows and he has played in 3 premierships. 
It’s not like we are the most attractive option when it comes to guaranteeing success 

Please NO! 

The Retirement Home  is full and the Super Fund is out of money.

We need players who want to make their careers with us, not simply extend them.

57 minutes ago, Lord Travis said:

While we need better onfield leadership, I'm hesitant to target a 32 year old who's game is built around running ability and kicking penetration. Thos are things footballers lose quickly when their body starts to slow. Look at Lewis, Jones, Vince etc. That said, as an UFA he costs us no draft pick, so not the worst option.

Interestingly the players that played the were generally those that could play on the outside in their later career. Brent Harvey, Kevin Barlett, Michael Tuck, Shaun Burgoyne, Robert Harvey, Craig Bradley, Adam Goodes, Brad Johnson, John Blakey, Gary Ablett, Doug Hawkins, Kade Simpson ......

Some of those were inside players at their peak, but they got the longevity by being able to play outside. That's what we're seeing with Jones, Lewis and Vince, who didn't have great pace to start with so fell away one they slowed down from 'average' to 'slow'.

Isaac Smith, provided he stays injury free, will not become 'slow', but he may move from 'fast' to 'average' whilst still remaining a great aerobic athlete. Even an averagely quick Isaac Smith is still a very good wingman and should continue be for a number of years (injury dependent).

40 minutes ago, Demons11 said:

In fairness its the only club he knows and he has played in 3 premierships. 
It’s not like we are the most attractive option when it comes to guaranteeing success 

I think people love to think they made the difference - it takes the whole thing to another level.  I think there was a fair bit of that going on with Lewis, even though it didn't ultimately pan out.

1 hour ago, Roger Mellie said:

If he's a winker, then I take it all back!

Yes thanks - Smith's a winker, not a campaigner

1 hour ago, Lord Travis said:

This is playing out similar to the Lewis situation but without the animosity. Sounds like we're prepared to offer him a year longer contract than the Hawks, which is what he is tossing up. 

While we need better onfield leadership, I'm hesitant to target a 32 year old who's game is built around running ability and kicking penetration. Thos are things footballers lose quickly when their body starts to slow. Look at Lewis, Jones, Vince etc. That said, as an UFA he costs us no draft pick, so not the worst option.

A year longer than the 2 years the Hawks have in front of him? Surely we're not offering him a contract to play until he's nearly 35, even as a UFA, everyone could see his running capacity already looked down this year. I'm also not sure he's a natural leader either, clearly the likes of Hodge, Mitchell, Roughy and Lewis were but he's not in their league 

On 10/1/2020 at 6:06 PM, A F said:

You've got no idea how we've handled our cap. You've got speculation and that's it.

I'm happy to say that Mahoney's internal review from 2019 was not good enough, but as for list management, it's mere speculation on your part.

Well, you can't really win then can you. I think this is a good move and yeah, what's wrong with ensuring we play finals next year? Our core is good enough. 

Tomlinson is a handy player. No star, but does his job at CHB, can go into the ruck if we need him, can go onto a wing if we need him and can even play as a half forward flanker. I think he's a handy acquisition. And a vast upgrade on Frost and Oscar McDonald.

Completely disagree. I'll never understand people's obsession with Frost. More often than not he'd sprint out of defence with no idea what was going on and couldn't hold team defensive structure.

I've got as much of an idea as you do in your assessment of Mahoney's review. (Which I agree with).

They're opinions.

We paid Tom Mcdonald a monster contract after he delivered one great year of football. 

We signed Harmes to a five year deal far too early.

We brought in Lever and May on massive contracts a couple of years too late and overlooked our need for midfield attribute diversity on too many occasions.

We brought in Tomlinson on a significant contract to play wing. He was dropped after round four and now plays CHB in a very unconvincing fashion.

Whichever way you look at it, the way we've handled our list over the last three years has been poor and that is entirely to do with giving Goodwin what he wanted and sticking fat. He was unwilling to change the way we played, change the lineup and therefore the type of players we've brought in over the years.

Our core is unbelievable but incase people haven't noticed, Max and May are coming to the end of their careers. I will be absolutely livid if we don't go all out this trade period on quality midfield and forward half options as well as a significant boost to quality assistants around Goodwin.

Half of demonland is delusional. Year upon year they think we'll just steadily improve and gradually make it to a GF. We had next to no injuries this year and still couldn't make the 8.

Yeh, I'm acutely aware trade period hasn't even started but what I don't like is that Carlton have already been nominated by two quality players who we were interested in. Two players who we are crying out for.

Every year missed is a wasted year. The AFL is a completely different landscape and teams can no longer bottom out and expect to rise again with some handy draft picks.

If we waste this off-season and don't make serious ground next year, do people honestly think we'll be holding on to players like Petracca, Oliver, Salem etc etc?

The last two years have been an utter disaster for our club in ways seemingly invisible to many on here.

 

Edited October 8, 20204 yr by JimmyGadson

And [censored] oath we should go all out for Smith.

He is quality, hasn't slowed down, has been extremely durable and will instantly make us a better side and increase our chances of making the 8 and therefore a crack at a flag.

It's an absolute no brainer.

How the [censored] people think otherwise is beyond me.

4 minutes ago, JimmyGadson said:

We paid Tom Mcdonald a monster contract after he delivered one great year of football. 

We signed Harmes to a five year deal far too early.

We brought in Lever and May on massive contracts a couple of years too late and overlooked our need for midfield attribute diversity on too many occasions.

We brought in Tomlinson on a significant contract to play wing. He was dropped after round four and now plays CHB in a very unconvincing fashion.

Whichever way you look at it, the way we've handled our list over the last three years has been poor and that is entirely to do with giving Goodwin what he wanted and sticking fat. He was unwilling to change the way we played, change the lineup and therefore the type of players we've brought in over the years.

Tom McDonald was very good in a ruck/forward role in ‘17 as well. But the fact is he was out of contract after ‘18. We can’t time travel and ask him to have played better footy before that. I don’t think it was a monster deal, it was the deal you give a 50 goal kicker.

Harmes - I’m convinced the length of deal was to lower the total per year. Harmes is going to be around for 5 years in some form. It’s a non issue.

Tomlinson - absolutely agree. A desperation move after trying 15 wingmen the year before.

Goodwin changed the defensive system with good effect this year. He finally got improvement with our mids going inside 50. Not enough but it was the right step.

We’ve made a heap of mistakes the last few years, I don’t think any individual is to blame. The way I see it is Goodwin and Mahoney took too much reinforcement from decent results and the Roos, McCartney, Jason Taylor school of contested ball and competitors. 
 

We missed out on Williams and Saad but we’ve seen the impact Langdon made last year compared with Brad Hill. If we’re turning over the list and improving the game plan we can make big steps without big names (or sacking Goodwin and Mahoney) 

20 minutes ago, JimmyGadson said:

I've got as much of an idea as you do in your assessment of Mahoney's review. (Which I agree with).

They're opinions.

We paid Tom Mcdonald a monster contract after he delivered one great year of football. 

We signed Harmes to a five year deal far too early.

I could agree with these points. Though I'm comfortable enough with Harmes' contract, though a 4 year deal would have been sufficient. We have no idea whether that was front or back ended or what type of money that was though.

20 minutes ago, JimmyGadson said:

We brought in Lever and May on massive contracts a couple of years too late and overlooked our need for midfield attribute diversity on too many occasions.

We brought in Tomlinson on a significant contract to play wing. He was dropped after round four and now plays CHB in a very unconvincing fashion.

Disagree with these points.

RE: Lever and May, we had to build our midfield first, which took 2014-2016 and then we went after Lever and May. You can't just bring in your whole squad one time. That's fairyland stuff IMV. It takes time. Did we overpay for Lever and May? Maybe. But you have to in order to get good players in the door.

RE: Tomlinson, I don't recall him being beaten when he went back to defence. Turned out to be a very good move. We also have a guy who can play wing, ruck or half forward if we need. He's a flexible signing and we're not absolutely sure we paid the world for him. Does this mean we can't go after another defensive option? No. 

20 minutes ago, JimmyGadson said:

Whichever way you look at it, the way we've handled our list over the last three years has been poor and that is entirely to do with giving Goodwin what he wanted and sticking fat. He was unwilling to change the way we played, change the lineup and therefore the type of players we've brought in over the years.

Disagree about our list management. As mentioned, I don't think you can do it all in two to three years. It takes time.

20 minutes ago, JimmyGadson said:

Our core is unbelievable but incase people haven't noticed, Max and May are coming to the end of their careers. I will be absolutely livid if we don't go all out this trade period on quality midfield and forward half options as well as a significant boost to quality assistants around Goodwin.

May has at least another 3-4 years, as does Max IMV. But I agree that I want us to attack trade period hard and would be willing to give up a good midfielder and a good pick for a player of Merrett's calibre and what he'd offer our midfield.

20 minutes ago, JimmyGadson said:

Half of demonland is delusional. Year upon year they think we'll just steadily improve and gradually make it to a GF. We had next to no injuries this year and still couldn't make the 8.

This year was ultimately a failure, but anything less than top 6 next year will be a failure too. I expect us to be around that mark next year, provided we can stay fit, add the players we need to this off season and keep Burgess or get another comparable fitness boss. 

In poor old Demonland's defence, I don't think anyone is saying it was acceptable, just that we don't need to throw the baby out with the bathwater either.

20 minutes ago, JimmyGadson said:

Yeh, I'm acutely aware trade period hasn't even started but what I don't like is that Carlton have already been nominated by two quality players who we were interested in. Two players who we are crying out for.

From what I've heard, Saad was way out of our price range. I don't want to compromise Oliver, Petracca and anyone else we may want to sign moving forward by signing a zippy half backer on bigger dollars than either of those guys. Ridiculous. We put our offer in and it wasn't high enough. We move on.

20 minutes ago, JimmyGadson said:

Every year missed is a wasted year. The AFL is a completely different landscape and teams can no longer bottom out and expect to rise again with some handy draft picks.

If we waste this off-season and don't make serious ground next year, do people honestly think we'll be holding on to players like Petracca, Oliver, Salem etc etc?

If this is aimed at me, I agree. We need to be successful and at the very least, that means playing finals regularly, otherwise we'll shed important players and go backwards.

20 minutes ago, JimmyGadson said:

The last two years has been an utter disaster for our club in ways seemingly invisible to many on here.

Once again, you're dismissiveness towards "many on here" is overplayed and hyperbolised. As if it's invisible. There's a difference between being hysterical, which this post borders on and being aggressive at the trade table. The latter is perfectly reasonable and what we should doing.

Smith is definitely one I'd like to bring across. 

Recruiting Isaac Smith might be similar to Lewis, Hodge, Birchall type recruitment.  Get him in on ability but he also brings knowledge on how to win and how to succeed. Should be an on field leader or at least a player that lifts others up. 

I would like Isaac Smith to come to our football team. But part of that depends on one's perspective as to where we sit on the 'premiership clock'. I personally believe our window will open next year again and peak in the next two to three years beyond that - covering the length of Smith's proposed contract. I think it would be beneficial to have him on the list during this period, whether playing full-time or not. But if you're in the anti-Goodwin/club-is-a-mess camp then it would make little sense.  

18 minutes ago, Skuit said:

I would like Isaac Smith to come to our football team. But part of that depends on one's perspective as to where we sit on the 'premiership clock'. I personally believe our window will open next year again and peak in the next two to three years beyond that - covering the length of Smith's proposed contract. I think it would be beneficial to have him on the list during this period, whether playing full-time or not. But if you're in the anti-Goodwin/club-is-a-mess camp then it would make little sense.  

I don't believe Goodwin's career and Smith's contract have to be tied to each other. I think Smith's recruitment could be good whether Goodwin keeps his job or not.

2 hours ago, A F said:

I could agree with these points. Though I'm comfortable enough with Harmes' contract, though a 4 year deal would have been sufficient. We have no idea whether that was front or back ended or what type of money that was though.

Disagree with these points.

RE: Lever and May, we had to build our midfield first, which took 2014-2016 and then we went after Lever and May. You can't just bring in your whole squad one time. That's fairyland stuff IMV. It takes time. Did we overpay for Lever and May? Maybe. But you have to in order to get good players in the door.

RE: Tomlinson, I don't recall him being beaten when he went back to defence. Turned out to be a very good move. We also have a guy who can play wing, ruck or half forward if we need. He's a flexible signing and we're not absolutely sure we paid the world for him. Does this mean we can't go after another defensive option? No. 

Disagree about our list management. As mentioned, I don't think you can do it all in two to three years. It takes time.

May has at least another 3-4 years, as does Max IMV. But I agree that I want us to attack trade period hard and would be willing to give up a good midfielder and a good pick for a player of Merrett's calibre and what he'd offer our midfield.

This year was ultimately a failure, but anything less than top 6 next year will be a failure too. I expect us to be around that mark next year, provided we can stay fit, add the players we need to this off season and keep Burgess or get another comparable fitness boss. 

In poor old Demonland's defence, I don't think anyone is saying it was acceptable, just that we don't need to throw the baby out with the bathwater either.

From what I've heard, Saad was way out of our price range. I don't want to compromise Oliver, Petracca and anyone else we may want to sign moving forward by signing a zippy half backer on bigger dollars than either of those guys. Ridiculous. We put our offer in and it wasn't high enough. We move on.

If this is aimed at me, I agree. We need to be successful and at the very least, that means playing finals regularly, otherwise we'll shed important players and go backwards.

Once again, you're dismissiveness towards "many on here" is overplayed and hyperbolised. As if it's invisible. There's a difference between being hysterical, which this post borders on and being aggressive at the trade table. The latter is perfectly reasonable and what we should doing.

Smith is definitely one I'd like to bring across. 

 

I'm not sure why you needed to quote almost every sentence as if you're assessing an essay I've written..

The basic point was that it's clear we haven't handled our cap the way we should have. 

The evidence is everywhere.

If we've been shopping Tom Mac around but nobody is biting because of the contract he's on, what does that tell you?

Tom Mcdonald and his brother have possibly been the most inconsistent footballers I've ever witnessed play.

Josh Mahoney said the club was thrilled when they identified and targeted a 'specialist wingman' in Tomlinson over the off-season last year. Three weeks into a season he's dropped and now plays defence. And he's on a four year deal...

We've had ample opportunity over the last three years to address two absolute key needs.

1) our small specialist forward issue which we didn't do

2) our one dimensional midfield which we didn't do

We're stuck between a rock and a hard place clearly because the club thought we'd be challenging for a flag by now with the list the way it was. 

Edited October 8, 20204 yr by JimmyGadson

11 minutes ago, JimmyGadson said:

 

I'm not sure why you needed to quote almost every sentence as if you're assessing an essay I've written..

The basic point was that it's clear we haven't handled our cap the way we should have. 

The evidence is everywhere.

If we've been shopping Tom Mac around but nobody is biting because of the contract he's on, what does that tell you?

Tom Mcdonald and his brother have possibly been the most inconsistent footballers I've ever witnessed play.

Josh Mahoney said the club was thrilled when they identified and targeted a 'specialist wingman' in Tomlinson over the off-season last year. Three weeks into a season he's dropped and now plays defence. And he's on a four year deal...

We've had ample opportunity over the last three years to address two absolute key needs.

1) our small specialist forward issue which we didn't do

2) our one dimensional midfield which we didn't do

We're stuck between a rock and a hard place clearly because the club thought we'd be challenging for a flag by now with the last the way it was. 

Just wild hyperbole again. Tom McDonald and Oscar McDonald are possibly the most inconsistent players you've witnessed play the game? They're both perfectly consistent. Both have played far more ordinary football than good.

Again, I'd argue that we haven't handled our cap badly.

And Pickett was recruited as the small specialist forward. What else do you think he was recruited for?

And we're not stuck between a rock and a hard place at all. Add one or two outside receivers like Smith and/or Polec and it changes the look of our midfield immediately. Add another draftee (we always like to get back into the first round if we've targeted someone we think will offer something different to our midfield) and it's possible to transform our midfield in one off season.

Again, Tomlinson... not a bad signing. 

12 minutes ago, A F said:

Just wild hyperbole again. Tom McDonald and Oscar McDonald are possibly the most inconsistent players you've witnessed play the game? They're both perfectly consistent. Both have played far more ordinary football than good.

Again, I'd argue that we haven't handled our cap badly.

And Pickett was recruited as the small specialist forward. What else do you think he was recruited for?

And we're not stuck between a rock and a hard place at all. Add one or two outside receivers like Smith and/or Polec and it changes the look of our midfield immediately. Add another draftee (we always like to get back into the first round if we've targeted someone we think will offer something different to our midfield) and it's possible to transform our midfield in one off season.

Again, Tomlinson... not a bad signing. 

With all due respect, you have no idea.

None of it is hyperbole.

There is a reason the club has had consecutive entire football department reviews after making a prelim.

If we are not a serious player this off-season and if we do not address some serious areas of weakness, we are in major trouble and watch as teams like Carlton waltz right past us AGAIN whilst we fall away to irrelevancy.

 

Edited October 8, 20204 yr by JimmyGadson