Fox Footy Analysis Dermot, King, Robbo MfC DNA

[Half forward flank 1,022]

1 hour ago, Engorged Onion said:

Jahhhheesus @Lucifer's Hero - that's a long bow.  Connors was packed off early. You got to remember all players come from all sections of society. There are 38 others and all the staff that are on the north side of being decent, caring, compassionate, passionate people. So I think it's unfair to tarnish others, just because they work for the same organisation.

Posters on this site bemoan that we don't have mongrel, that 'we're not hard enough'... that the soft culture is cancerous ([censored] hilarious analogy that one). But on the flip side it's a fine line between prickish or arrogant behaviour, or self belief.

We flogged off Jack Watts, Jesse Hogan et al for 'cultural reasons'.... as we're erred on the side of caring for the welfare of said indivduals and erring on the side of trying to curb influences that would poorly affect performance...ie: genuine commitment.

The trade off is always individual talent and what that contributes to the team overall, whilst trying to mitigate poor elements of said individuals personality and its influence on others.

Ps... if it's in our 'DNA' - then we all understand that we can't change it.... so supporting our club is fatalism at it's finest whilst the world collapses around us

 

Hogan was not shown the door.

[Engorged Onion 10,215]

42 minutes ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

I'm reluctant to comment as culture is so complex.  But here goes:

I didn't refer to 'weak or 'soft, 'good' or 'untrustworthy' culture.  I'm not sure culture can even be compartmentalised like that.

My reference to Dusty/Connors/King wasn't about their behaviours per se, as you say people are basically decent and anyone can make mistakes. 

Using those examples was to highlight Rich and the AFL keeping dirty lanundry in-house and covering it up, downplaying an incident if it becomes public or if they have to, use a 'wet lettuce'.   Connors was an exception.  Notice Dusty didn't get the same treatment for the same behaviour.  Stack is in the same boat as Connors;  would senior players have been expelled for the finals series?  The cultural message to players is 'if you get into strife its ok, we will whitewash it (unless your are an unimportant player and can be dispensed with).  A 'good' culture would say:  you get in strife you wear the consequences, regardless of who you are.

Most clubs try and keep dirty laundry in house.  I referred to Richmond because of the assumption that their recent on field success equates to 'good' culture.

From the outside it seems to me that part of Richmond's culture (whitewashing dirty laundry) hasn't changed during their successful years. 

Apologies Lucifer - I know you didn't - I was mixing others previous commentary into your post!

[rjay 24,852]

Ok, this is a load of bollocks.

A lot of games for us this year have been so called line in the sand games.

We've won more of them, Hawthorn (they were still a threat when we played them), Collingwood, St Kilda, Adelaide (I know, but how many expected we would be the ones to lose this one...well done Hawthorn) for example...than we've lost.

Sydney is the only gimme we've lost this year.

The big issue we have is no depth on our list and not enough spread of talent across the ground.

When we have to run out with the likes of Smith, Spargo, Omac, Melksham, Tommy Mac, Jones, Hannan, ANB, AVB, Lockhart etc.. then we are going to get mixed results.

It means too much is left to too few and those too few get tired of carrying the load.

The secondary issue is with the FD and selection of the team.

I don't think they've used the limited resources very well.

I think probably a bigger issue is their building of the list.

[Half forward flank 1,022]

10 minutes ago, Hogan2014 said:

Would be great to hear from Jordan Lewis who come from winning 4 flags plus 3 in a row as to what he saw/felt were the differences in culture between the clubs.. 

He is too smart to be brutally honest on that score, and why should he? He was paid to play not fix the Clubs culture.

[Lucifers Hero 39,504]

Just now, Engorged Onion said:

Apologies Lucifer - I know you didn't - I was mixing others previous commentary into your post!

All good, EO.   Your comments on the topic were quite fair.

[Lord Nev 13,512]

This is an article containing a synopsis for anyone wanting to read what was said.

The phone call to an AFL legend that could save the AFL’s ‘most untrustworthy team in the comp’

 

[Lil_red_fire_engine 11,108]

I am impatient as well but Have come to accept that the list is where it is meant to be. It’s just not good enough yet. We got on a hot streak at the end of 2018 (we were 8 and 6 at this time of 2018). We had a nightmare preparation in 2019. In 2020 outside of the Swans game and the Port game we have beaten the sides below us, won more than most around us and are mainly competitive but lose in patches against the top 5. This is away from home in a shortened game style that does not suit us.  We have a strong backline and inside grunt but we need to add further dynamic run and polish to the midfield and half forward line. We still have too many roles not locked in to provide us stability that rotated through by players that have been here long enough to sustain it if they were good enough. 

I suspect over the coming 12 months we will only lose Jones, Melksham and Hibberd from our best 22 but most will still be in development and maturing years. The eldest players will be May and Gawn at 29 with Trac, Oliver, Langdon, Lever, Salem and Brayshaw in the 24-26 window. The TMac of 2018 has been cruelled by surgeries so we must see continued development in our Tall forwards in Weid, Jackson and Petty. All of LJ, Kozzie and Rivers looks like they have high ceiling potential, at minimum Petty, Sparrow and Jordon should develop into good soldiers.  Another good lot of kids and some shrewd trades and we should be taking another step in the right direction and closing the gap above us.

 

[Undeeterred 3,118]

3 hours ago, joeboy said:

Normally I’d agree with your response to the three ‘experts’ but in reality, after watching the aforementioned discussion, I think they nailed it on the head.

They used words like fickle, untrustworthy, flaky, mentally weak, and actually named Fritsch, and Salem, as prime examples, and the playing of an obviously injured Jones against Sydney as further evidence 

i personally had no argument with their cases

Salem wouldn't be in the Top 20 at Melbourne for flakiness. To single him out is absurd.

[DeeZee 7,361]

We weren’t soft at the back end of 2018, and were actually being described as brutal by certain sections of the media.

The question  is why haven’t we played with the same vigor since?

Are they just comfortable with themselves and just happy to be AFL players but without the drive and burning desire to do the hard yards to succeed?

[rufus 1,162]

They're right...and it feels like hope is starting to fade for the club to ever change the attitude to competing.

I mean, you watch the St Kilda game and yeah it was good to win, but it looks like the players got as carried away with it as Demonland did. When you watch that game back,  so much of the way we executed basic skills was lazy.

Those saying we might be short on quality and depth may well be right...but we didn't lose on Thursday to the Swans or to the extent we did to Port earlier in the season because of our talent or depth. Those results were born out of a straight up lack of competitive intent.

Sitting 18th for tackles is a damning indication of how desperate this group is to be successful. The clear inability for this playing group to drive the change that is required at the club is why I would have no issues with us moving on from almost any player other than probably Gawn and Oliver to bring in new blood and see if new blood can drive the club's future upwards.

 

[Brownie 5,969]

We started to change the culture when Roos came on board. We bought into a whole program around leadership with leading teams I think it was called.

Some will buy in and change, some people you'll need to let go.

The board has set the vision and kpis for the team. We must play finals every year. Can't see us doing it this year. 

When I look at our coaching staff, I don't really see any true products of sustained success and real leaders.

That's why Hodge was mentioned. He comes from a background of.

1. Sustained success.

2. A great on field leader.

I think we need to go after a very strong coaching team now.

Ex Hawthorn and Brisbane players spring to mind.

The Muppets we have now don't appear to be driving the leadership we need from all of our players (a dozen Steven May's would help).

Sometimes a single person can drive the culture changes required. Roos (and Jackson) were doing that, but if they leave, it normally all falls apart unless a really strong culture has been established.

It hasn't, we've slid backwards again.

 

 

[Brownie 5,969]

1 minute ago, DeeZee said:

We weren’t soft at the back end of 2018, and were actually being described as brutal by certain sections of the media.

The question  is why haven’t we played with the same vigor since?

Are they just comfortable with themselves and just happy to be AFL players but without the drive and burning desire to do the hard yards to succeed?

Spot on Yes

[Hogan2014 390]

All comes down to leadership both during the game & during the training week... love Gawn but his post game interview he spoke about positives ... not sure what game he was playing in

[rufus 1,162]

Just now, DeeZee said:

We weren’t soft at the back end of 2018, and were actually being described as brutal by certain sections of the media.

The question  is why haven’t we played with the same vigor since?

Are they just comfortable with themselves and just happy to be AFL players but without the drive and burning desire to do the hard yards to succeed?

The thing is, in 2018 we were hard in and around the contest. But evidently we weren't competitive enough. We turned up to a prelim final with the can't be bothered's...it was always going to be hard to win and evidently our guys didn't want a part of the required scrap.

Soft probably isn't the right word, but winning titles in any sport at almost any level isn't going to be easy. It takes a lot of individual sacrifice (players accepting lesser roles, players missing out on selection on a needs basis but being ready to step in when required, a want to contribute even when having a bad game by providing competitiveness and pressure on your opponents). Our guys look good when the going is good, but when things turn against them there is a real propensity to raise the white flag with this group.

[Hogan2014 390]

6 minutes ago, rufus said:

They're right...and it feels like hope is starting to fade for the club to ever change the attitude to competing.

I mean, you watch the St Kilda game and yeah it was good to win, but it looks like the players got as carried away with it as Demonland did. When you watch that game back,  so much of the way we executed basic skills was lazy.

Those saying we might be short on quality and depth may well be right...but we didn't lose on Thursday to the Swans or to the extent we did to Port earlier in the season because of our talent or depth. Those results were born out of a straight up lack of competitive intent.

Sitting 18th for tackles is a damning indication of how desperate this group is to be successful. The clear inability for this playing group to drive the change that is required at the club is why I would have no issues with us moving on from almost any player other than probably Gawn and Oliver to bring in new blood and see if new blood can drive the club's future upwards.

 

18th for tackles is 360 degrees from what Roos had laid down in the foundations of playing both ways!

[Engorged Onion 10,215]

22 minutes ago, Brownie said:

We started to change the culture when Roos came on board. We bought into a whole program around leadership with leading teams I think it was called.

Some will buy in and change, some people you'll need to let go.

The board has set the vision and kpis for the team. We must play finals every year. Can't see us doing it this year. 

When I look at our coaching staff, I don't really see any true products of sustained success and real leaders.

That's why Hodge was mentioned. He comes from a background of.

1. Sustained success.

2. A great on field leader.

I think we need to go after a very strong coaching team now.

Ex Hawthorn and Brisbane players spring to mind.

The Muppets we have now don't appear to be driving the leadership we need from all of our players (a dozen Steven May's would help).

Sometimes a single person can drive the culture changes required. Roos (and Jackson) were doing that, but if they leave, it normally all falls apart unless a really strong culture has been established.

It hasn't, we've slid backwards again.

 

 

I counterpoint Michael Voss.

It's reductionist to link those 2 points to his capacity to coach.

Besides...he's from Colac....anyways

I would much prefer Fagan... who I am sure we all know, came from Melbourne with its lack of sustained success. ,  with a hiatus at Hawthorn, and is known as a renowned educator, rather than 'coach. Which is all about 'guiding' players rather than 'compelling/demanding' players to do things. Just like you can't demand a 14yo to do homework, similar you cannot do it to players who are learning the game (and every single player is learning/refining their game year after year anyway).

Getting some ex player in, because he 'appears' to have been around success, when he was merely ONE single link in the machine is fraught.

 

Edited September 6, 2020 by Engorged Onion

[Hogan2014 390]

Not deflecting from our culture issues & hate making excuse for this club but I wonder if these experts were aware...For the Cairns match they went from Sunshine Coast to Brisbane by bus for 2 hrs then flew to Cairns, arriving 3 hours before the match after travelling from 7.30 in the morning. Appallingly bad management or continue to accept how the AFL treats us?

Edited September 6, 2020 by Hogan2014

[McQueen 17,864]

14 minutes ago, Engorged Onion said:

I counterpoint Michael Voss.

It's reductionist to link those 2 points to his capacity to coach.

Besides...he's from Colac....anyways

I would much prefer Fagan... who I am sure we all know, came from Melbourne with its lack of sustained success. ,  with a hiatus at Hawthorn, and is known as a renowned educator, rather than 'coach. Which is all about 'guiding' players rather than 'compelling/demanding' players to do things. Just like you can't demand a 14yo to do homework, similar you cannot do it to players who are learning the game (and every single player is learning/refining their game year after year anyway).

Getting some ex player in, because he 'appears' to have been around success, when he was merely ONE single link in the machine is fraught.

 

Writing off a superstar of the game because of where he was born. 
 

You are as thick as ten boards mate. 

[Engorged Onion 10,215]

15 minutes ago, McQueen said:

Writing off a superstar of the game because of where he was born. 
 

You are as thick as ten boards mate. 

Thinking that's a legitimate part of the argument... same could be said mate

Edited September 6, 2020 by Engorged Onion

[Earl Hood 6,082]

1 hour ago, rjay said:

Ok, this is a load of bollocks.

A lot of games for us this year have been so called line in the sand games.

We've won more of them, Hawthorn (they were still a threat when we played them), Collingwood, St Kilda, Adelaide (I know, but how many expected we would be the ones to lose this one...well done Hawthorn) for example...than we've lost.

Sydney is the only gimme we've lost this year.

The big issue we have is no depth on our list and not enough spread of talent across the ground.

When we have to run out with the likes of Smith, Spargo, Omac, Melksham, Tommy Mac, Jones, Hannan, ANB, AVB, Lockhart etc.. then we are going to get mixed results.

It means too much is left to too few and those too few get tired of carrying the load.

The secondary issue is with the FD and selection of the team.

I don't think they've used the limited resources very well.

I think probably a bigger issue is their building of the list.

Agree with most of what you say Rjay. I still think Lockhart has talent, Melk and Hannan have the skills but can’t be consistent, is that something good coaching should be fixing? 
 

but basically it is about too much left to too few but against the Swans why did the too few suddenly revert to the same dumb play we were seeing earlier in the season, the bombing it high to that spot just in front of the goal square repeatedly and from front on so it is just so easy to defend? I noted the Swans do the same but from wide in the pocket which opened the angles for their crumbers. When we play our style, it’s so predictable, no variation on the angles of attack, there was little switching from the back half to open them up just attempts to attack down the middle. I just think we are a poorly drilled and coached team with a suboptimal game plan based on midfield dominance of contested ball and repeated I50’s. Problem is our midfield gets towelled up too often by units that work very well together to extract the ball and move it forward. 

[buck_nekkid 5,845]

All this talk about culture, yet what the heck does anyone mean?

Culture is simply the unwritten/unspoken rules that determine what is acceptable (think standards) and valued by the collective.  The culture is created by the group, it cant be imported.  Each team will have a different culture, because they comprise different individuals.  Culture can have good and dark sides (win at all costs, for example).

There are 7 artefacts of culture that you can actively pursue to change the group, and the culture has to be aligned to the idea of success (in the case of the footy team, the things that are valued have to match with what will drive the success of the gameplan).

Essendons druggie culture, Richmond’s dirty culture, St Kilda’s old party culture are all examples we could cite of labelled cultures in the AFL, and what has come (good and bad) from these.

Culture revolves around prominent individuals. Change these, and the whole culture can shift.

I see the current scenario as:

Goody has established a ‘we love each other’ mantra which created a good spirit. It need to evolve to a ‘we will do anything for each other’ on the field.

The standards need to be more firmly enforced by the team.  There must be absolute examples made of poor effort and performance (Melk?) and no passengers, as this send the wrong signal as to what is acceptable into the group.

We need to define what we value, and really build this into all of the 7 artefacts.  Not sure what this is for the Dees atm.  Winning at all costs is not one of them....

The team is probably 1-2 years shy of the premiership window.  Some focus on ‘learnings’ is still relevant.  When this disappears from the language, the stories and the press conferences, we can start to build a sense of ‘we got this’, rather than the implied ‘we are learning from this ‘ mindset.

Anyway, culture is not necessarily complex to change, it just has to be something that people are open to exploring and want to change.  The current culture of making excuses and learnings means that the fragility and ‘occasional let down’ aka Swans game is tolerated.  When it is not, we will be a completely different footy team.

[rjay 24,852]

1 minute ago, Earl Hood said:

Problem is our midfield gets towelled up too often by units that work very well together to extract the ball and move it forward. 

It's one part personnel and another part coaching I reckon 'Earl'...

I've been avoiding this one for a while but I think it's becoming apparent we need to lose one of Brayshaw or Viney.

My preference would be to lose Viney but I'm not sure of the value there as he's a free agent.

Let's say we could trade Brayshaw for Cerra, would that be a good move?

[TRIGON 4,783]

49 minutes ago, Engorged Onion said:

Besides...he's from Colac....anyways

 

Fail to see what the relevance EO?

[Sir Why You Little 36,955]

18th in the Comp for tackles says it all to me. We are not hard enough

Is Goodwin strong enough to make changes? Changes that become the Standards 

 

[loges 6,767]

4 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

18th in the Comp for tackles says it all to me. We are not hard enough

Is Goodwin strong enough to make changes? Changes that become the Standards 

 

And it's a long way from where we were at the end of 2018........ WHY?