POSTGAME: Rd 13 vs Western Bulldogs

[Sir Why You Little 36,909]

4 minutes ago, Deesprate said:

Lonely job

Look at the Synergy in there

working beautifully!!

[Trisul 664]

5 minutes ago, A F said:

Disagree. If our players worked hard enough, the Bulldogs can't switch to anyone and look up and have easy transition down the other side of the ground. It's simply not a coaching thing. It's a work rate thing on our mids and forwards.

It is precisely when your coach can see that the work rate is down that he needs to step forward and, just perhaps, put a stopper on the opposition player who even though he only played 80% match time kicked a goal, gained 742 metres, had 7 inside 50s and 2 goal assists.

[DeeSpencer 25,378]

9 minutes ago, jnrmac said:

So here's another question. We all know how the Saints will play next week. Fast breaks, stack the backline rinse and repeat

We all have a pretty good idea of how to beat Melbourne

But what is Goodwin actually going to do to counter that? This is where i think his weakness is. He plans for a perfect performance from our players. When it doesn't come - because they don't show up or the oppo does something diffenent - nothing happens in the box.

It's very frustrating.

 

Goodwin's made changes to get a sustainable game style. The first half against the Dogs we looked the far better structured side. 

Keeping defenders deep this year has drastically cut down the over the back goals. 

There's been signs of life at various times of finding more marks and bringing in more switching. Today clearly wasn't the day for it. There's been signs of being smarter going forward - we use the boundary rather than going for the miracle corridor play at all times and we're kicking to Weid in a contest.

We lack versatile players, we lack smart players and we have too many forwards and mids who are poor defensively. It's hard to think of any game plan that stands up when your can't get pressure on.

The only method that would work is the Roos method of packing the backline and I'll be damned if we go back to that rubbish.

 

[ProperDee 1,698]

I thought quite a few of the guys played tired to me.  

Further, I cannot for the life of me understand why a ruckman with a height/strength advantage cannot come up with something other than a mindless tap down the oppos throat. How about coming up with a semblance of a plan between the ruck and mids? Tap left/tap right/ punch towards CHF......I know that the word “plan” is not in our vocabulary but FCS.

I also believe that when the players take the field it is up to the on field leaders to make decisions. For Gods sake make some #$&*@%+ calls! Do your job and LEAD!!  If Bont needs picking up, direct someone to do it!  Yeah, the coach might crack it but sticking blindly to Goodwin’s mantra is killing us. The bloke could not coach a pig to be dirty.

[DemonOX 8,779]

Just got back from the game. 

One word sums it up for me PATHETIC. 

No pressure, turnovers galore and missing set shots AGAIN. 

Langdon was free so many times when we were kicking out and was either ignored or not seen. We need to look better and not have tunnel vision in one direction only FFS.  

The dogs pressured us and we went to water again.

IMO Goodwin is not the coach to take us forward. Whenever we r pressured we don’t react and the coach has NO answers. 

When we play sides that don’t exert as much pressure Goodwin is a genius but when it’s the other way there is NOTHING. 
 

If we don’t make finals and that’s a big if based on today’s performance Goodwin needs to be given his marching orders. The cost is irrelevant as the cost to keep him will be enormous. 
 

We are forever in this up and down phase and it’s got to stop for the sanity of the supporters and players and it start with the coach. 
 

Get Lyon or Clarkson, get someone who is experienced and knows WTF they are doing. 

Edited August 22, 2020 by DemonOX

[stranga 328]

19 minutes ago, Queanbeyan Demon said:

Didn't think clowns were allowed to work during lockdown

[nosoupforme 3,085]

You have a brute in Preuss that disadvantaged our midfield at times  by tapping to the opposition. However it wasn't as though they sharked the ball it was pure dumb thinking by Preuss.  That was a part of what cost us a chance today.  

Hopefully Gawn is right to play next week. Preuss is a chance to play as well to help nullify Ryder and Marshall.

Edited August 22, 2020 by nosoupforme

[Gawndy the Great 9,011]

Today we lost by 28 points. 2 goals wasted with touched on the mark, Fristch misses one directly in front - kicks out on the full. Then weed puts some might action on the kick making bend like Beckham. Whilst Wallis kicks one from the boundary. Most of the game stats were equal with exception to uncontested disposals.
 

We got beaten on the outside but that was always going to happen. Always. It will happen next week as well as with any team in the top 6. We lack outside width and class - it is a gaping, gaping hole and one that if we don’t fill will never let this team be as successful as it could be. It’s the final missing piece.
 

We need to go after Hunter and/or Williams with every dollar we have. Need to clear the dead weight off our list to free up cap space to find the 1 - 1.2 M required to make that happen. Otherwise we will always be a 12-6 team.

[Gawndy the Great 9,011]

1 minute ago, nosoupforme said:

You have a brute in Preuss that disadvantaged our midfield at times  by tap to the opposition However it wasn't as though they sharked the ball it was pure dumb thinking by Preuss.  That was a part of what cost us a chance. 

Hopefully Gawn is right to play next week. Preuss is a chance to play as well to help nullify Ryder and Marshall.

Was his second game mate. Can’t expect him to deliver with the same class as Gawn. The doggies always setup to lose clearance anyway.

[titan_uranus 24,963]

42 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

I agree. We get little from Lockhart, Harmes, Tomlinson and Lever and then Hibberd starts to do far too much.

Rivers is the most logical addition in Harmes' spot.

But at some stage before the end of the year I'd look at Smith for Tomlinson and Chandler for Lockhart as well. Our backline has done a decent job as a unit for most of the year but we can't sit back and rest on them just being good.

If we find some quality at half back we can actually unleash Salem in to the midfield as well.

Tomlinson was one of our best rebounders today.

What we'd get from Smith in rebound we'd lose in countless other areas.

However, the general point you make is sound. Harmes is neither a lock-down defender nor a rebounder. So what is he doing there?

12 minutes ago, A F said:

Disagree. If our players worked hard enough, the Bulldogs can't switch to anyone and look up and have easy transition down the other side of the ground. It's simply not a coaching thing. It's a work rate thing on our mids and forwards.

Preuss was doing exactly what Max regularly does when other teams rove to his taps or he tapped to the Bulldog players. Really not a Max v Preuss thing. Max would have given us far more around the ground, but that wouldn't have helped us. We needed gut running. We didn't get it. At the end of the day, the ruck position is a junk position. One of the truly ineffective and overrated positions in the modern game. Beveridge clearly agrees and won a premiership with that philosophy. 

Sure, the players needed to work harder, but again, it's not coaching OR players, it's coaching AND players. It's both.

As to the ruck issue, I disagree entirely, as you know. Beveridge doesn't think the ruck is a "junk position". Indeed, he identified at HT that they were losing because of "one position": the ruck. So he made a change, bringing Bruce in, and that made a change to their midfield in the third.

[Wiseblood 24,637]

23 minutes ago, Rusty Nails said:

Sorry but the ability to switch and occasionally hit up a loose on the 45 isn't limited to smaller / medium blokes in the AFL Bin. 

I've even seen Maxy do it on occasions!

Opposition medium talls and intercept backs are also capable of doing this from time to time when they spot a free available on the fat side.

If his skills are limited to (bulk of time) only laying off backwards and/or kicking down the line then IMHO the big contract and the two first rounders are a bust (in the context of what was paid / is being paid vs actual match day returns).

But, his skills aren't limited to that.  I've seen him, on numerous occasions, hit some targets up the field with some really good skills.  Just because he didn't really do it today shouldn't take away from that.

My point is that we got him to play as a key defender, or as the third tall zoning off, and he's done that very well this year.  I think we are nitpicking after a loss for the sake of it.

[Demon Dynasty 17,109]

21 minutes ago, Soidee said:

Bont did what he liked all day, not one coaches move to try and stop him.  Goodwin beats up on teams at their weakest and has no answers for teams stronger  than us.  Dogs wanted it more,  one step forward three steps back is the Melbourne way.  In the 8 with all the motivation and they pee their pants again.

i said it weeks ago and it still stands, THIS CLUB CANNOT BE TRUSTED!   
 

I cannot see this team this year or next or the one after making the top 4.  There are other clubs developing faster below and above us, and our window of opportunity with this list will fall away.  2020-21 was meant to be our window to push hard.  How the hell we still have members is beyond me.

its just hopeless!,

 

We need a coach/team that will bring that week in week out.  The time for excuses and "go to sleep" performances like today ended at the end of the big excuse year that was 2019.

We have a  half decent list that should be doing better against mediocre/ok clubs but as you say, always 1 step vs 3 back.

We are STILL short of a classy outside mid who can finish on the run (hitting up forwards and kicking goals) and a genuine KPF who can take a few clunks inside 50 and score on a regular basis.

Weid should be the 2nd stringer to whoever that KPF is.  Ideally that should be Cameron but won't happen.

Edited August 22, 2020 by Rusty Nails

[Older demon 2,739]

I was worried at half time that Bevo at interview saw the need to make some change. They executed the plan brilliantly and we, as usual were slow to respond. Yes I know the coach had no idea and this happens to hime a lot but where are the onfield leaders as well.Lever is supposed to be the backline general, Viney may be hard at it but this footy smarts are non-existent.

OK we had two shots at goal touched in transit, gave 2 50 meter penalties that resulted in goals and kicked 2 out on the full and Fritch missed two set shots. In a tight game these are coach killers. For the life of me I cannot work out why Fritch leads to the right hand side and puts himself on a horrible angle.

Today we saw us get outreached, out played. We saw the level of skill execution required to get a clearance, have an outside runner waiting for the escape ball, kick long and accurately to someone in a good position. Once did Pruess direct the tap to Viney at the centre. He consistently got the tap and gave silver service to their mids. The ball in Bontempelli's hands is lethal and we have no one in the midfield to match that class.

So much talent in our team squandered and wasted

[Demon Dynasty 17,109]

4 minutes ago, Wiseblood said:

But, his skills aren't limited to that.  I've seen him, on numerous occasions, hit some targets up the field with some really good skills.  Just because he didn't really do it today shouldn't take away from that.

My point is that we got him to play as a key defender, or as the third tall zoning off, and he's done that very well this year.  I think we are nitpicking after a loss for the sake of it.

He's just ok Wise. Given the coin/2 first rounders he should be performing at May's level by now.  The ROI isn't there for mine.  We'll agree to disagree.

[titan_uranus 24,963]

5 minutes ago, Rusty Nails said:

He's just ok Wise. Given the coin/2 first rounders he should be performing at May's level by now.  The ROI isn't there for mine.  We'll agree to disagree.

It was the equivalent of 1 first rounder, and he's giving us exactly what we need.

Our two best players today were May and Lever. They've been consistently good for two months.

ROI is right there in front of you. I suspect you just don't like Lever and refuse to accept it.

[Lil_red_fire_engine 11,087]

1 hour ago, The heart beats true said:

Sorry, whose responsible for our lack of outside run, and one dimensional list? The coach, whose had 4 years to get the list that suits his game plan?

We traded for Kola for that need and drafted Nietzscke for it as well but have had no luck there. We brought in Langdon to solve it (success) and Tomlinson (not so much) and Bennell if he gets confidence in his body. Who are these players we have missed out on that would have changed our list in that time? Who would you play in the side or play elsewhere that is available to give us more run? Hunt, Baker, Bedford, Chandler and Rivers are really the only ones with toe that might fill the need maybe Bennell but he hasn’t shown it? Seems to be a lot of slinging with no real solutions being offered. Worth reading the 20 pages of selection changes for round 12 thread. Not many if any taking our 3-0 run and requesting changes to resolve our lack of run. Pretty easy to do post game though and drop it on the coach.

Edited August 22, 2020 by big_red_fire_engine

[DeeSpencer 25,378]

12 minutes ago, titan_uranus said:

Tomlinson was one of our best rebounders today.

What we'd get from Smith in rebound we'd lose in countless other areas.

However, the general point you make is sound. Harmes is neither a lock-down defender nor a rebounder. So what is he doing there?

It was probably Tomlinson's best game but he still only had 6 kicks for 168 metres gained and mostly just hit short easy ones. His best value today was being very good getting handballs under decent pressure and giving them off nicely. The early days of GWS really trained players well in fundamentals. Someone should hire Mark Williams purely as a skills coach.

If Lever is starting to play well as a genuine CHB then we should look for more ball winning or skill from our 3rd tall spot. Unless we think Lever's the match up for Membrey and Tomlinson can take the resting rucks. It's not our biggest issue so I'm a bit ambivalent about change their but certainly the backline - whilst probably our most consistent unit - still isn't firing on full cylinders. 

By keeping May and Hibbo deeper we need guys who can genuinely run to cover the space infront of them. That's what Harmes is appearing to do. He's involved a lot, he's just got no idea what he's doing! 

[Hellish Inferno 992]

We had no answer to their series of quick handballs out into space for the runners

This is due to poor stoppage structure and poor defensive structure around the ground. Partly due to coaching and partly due to poor work rate. But it just seemed to me that we didn't have a plan for them, the plan failed or was poorly executed

How much opp analysis and preparation actually goes on? It's meant to be a big area for AFL teams but so many times I get the impression we bring a similar plan each week without adapting it much

Also, like many have said I'd be looking to drop Tmac, bringing in Brown. Also drop Pickett or Spargo and bring in Bedford. Finally, bring in Rivers for Hannan and push Harmes forward in rotation with midfield.

 

[CHF 2,716]

Tough (edit) to watch that second half but there were signs of the problems in the first half. 
 

nNo midfield pressure, no concentration on effective disposals, seemingly no reactions from the coaches box to the moves that the opposition made. 
 

defence was good. If they were not as effective as hey were you could add another 4 goals to that defeat. Our attack was limited with us not getting much from Spargo or Pickett. Bad kicking from Fritsch and Melksham did not help.

Forget about proactive coaching, we did not look to make any reactive moves either.

What to do?

1. drop Melksham for his lack of discipline and bad kicking.

2. Drop Harmes as he is lacking confidence and his delivery by both hand and foot are as bad as I have seen. I don’t think giving him  a tagging role will make any difference to his game. He needs a break and to come back when his mind is reset.

we cannot go on week to week and not make sure that the mistakes the players make have consequences not on and off the field.

I am sure that the coaches and players put in a lot of work into the opposition but it seems to be to little effect. We did not have any responses to what they were doing and we did not have any moves that troubled them.

Edited August 22, 2020 by CHF

[Half forward flank 1,022]

1 hour ago, Deesprate said:

The two biggest thing holding this club back are coaching and skills. Sitting on the outer wing today the Dogs repeatedly ran the ball down the wing unchecked. They kicked with skill and precision to the red zone around the forward line. Not to the pocket. At no time did our useless coach and the loser for St Kilda try to stop it. Time and again. When we got the ball we repeatedly butchered it and kicked sideway; backwards and constantly to the pocket. I will continue to buy a membership because I love the club but there has to be significant change. Goodwin; Richo and recruiting poorly skilled players can’t continue. We are not Richmond we cannot blindly continue with the current format and coach or we have years of mediocrity ahead

So true.  I had us at 7-8 wins under Goodwin in shortened season. right on track.

[Deeoldfart 8,005]

1 hour ago, Rusty Nails said:

While i agree Kozzie must be rested Im not sure Bedford is the answer at this point.

Whatever happens we need to get Viney to play a mostly forward role and Gus to play most of his time in the middle.

Time to bring in Bennell (again) for Vanders me thinks and try and get us a target for the mids on the outside and some run.

Rivers comes in for Harmes.  The only way i'd be playing Harmes is for a specific lock down role on a damaging mid which he should've been doing today.

All fair points Rusty.

[Demon Dynasty 17,109]

6 minutes ago, titan_uranus said:

It was the equivalent of 1 first rounder, and he's giving us exactly what we need.

Our two best players today were May and Lever. They've been consistently good for two months.

ROI is right there in front of you. I suspect you just don't like Lever and refuse to accept it.

Wrong TU.  It's not personal he just doesn't bring a game that's anywhere near the level we paid and are continuing to pay imo.  He is a good intercept mark as i've said on many occasions but a very limited footballer with ball in hand.

[Adam The God 30,059]

33 minutes ago, titan_uranus said:

As to the ruck issue, I disagree entirely, as you know. Beveridge doesn't think the ruck is a "junk position". Indeed, he identified at HT that they were losing because of "one position": the ruck. So he made a change, bringing Bruce in, and that made a change to their midfield in the third.

IMV he exploited the ruck position all day, precisely because he sees how one dimensional the position is. We were probably caught off guard by a smaller ruckman in the first quarter and slowly we readjusted (Preuss using his body more against the smaller opponent) and did enough to force Beveridge to change tact by half time. He recognised they needed a more physical contest (ie halve it) and Bruce gave them that and our mids completely failed to defend transition and their mids got it on the outside time and again.

I agree with you in that it is rarely ever just one thing, but I think 90%+ of today was on the lack of work rate from the players. I'm not sure a few tweaks around the sides like sending Harmes to Bontempelli would have done much. We weren't clean enough all day around stoppage, our ball use exiting stoppage, probably due to poor work rate from our forwards, was ordinary too.

I just think if we'd brought work rate the Bulldogs can't switch and are continually forced to go down the line, where we then neutralise or win the next clearance. If we bring tackle pressure across half forward, we don't enable easy transition from one end of the ground to the other. Yet, we did. 

Edited August 22, 2020 by A F

[darkhorse72 1,901]

Frustrating game.  From TV I can't tell how bad the wind affected the game and skills in kicking to a target.  But except for the dog's burst we looked the overall better side.  Others have mentioned the missed shots on goals, touched etc, if we have gaoled on at least 1/2  of those it would have been a different game, due to scoreboard pressure on the dogs.

 

What is hugely disappointing again is the ability to stop a run on. Eagles at their peak in the 90's etc, would rarely had a more than 2 goals in a row kicked on them.  They had a simple team rule, 2 goals, you lock everyone down including in the mid.  Regain control and reset.  We have no plan, no active decision to wrest back control built into the team.  Yes the modern way of thinking is stick to the team system (Evident in top teams across the world) and not change. However, in our system we need to have one to respond to such situations on field by our leaders. Make a move to unsettle the opposition break their run.  But we don't I would have loved to see a player say harmes for example, move himself into the middle to lock down Bont, take responsibility.  He must hav been standing back there watching it happen and being frustrated waiting for a change.  If it doesn't work, try something else.  Be bloody proactive.

 

The 3rd quality run on didn't stop as our players weren't working hard enough.  Nothing more nothing less. The ability is there the mindset is missing. If Goody can't fix that so players play to the best of their ability and effort for  100% of their time on the field.  He should go.

[Half forward flank 1,022]

31 minutes ago, ProperDee said:

I thought quite a few of the guys played tired to me.  

Further, I cannot for the life of me understand why a ruckman with a height/strength advantage cannot come up with something other than a mindless tap down the oppos throat. How about coming up with a semblance of a plan between the ruck and mids? Tap left/tap right/ punch towards CHF......I know that the word “plan” is not in our vocabulary but FCS.

I also believe that when the players take the field it is up to the on field leaders to make decisions. For Gods sake make some #$&*@%+ calls! Do your job and LEAD!!  If Bont needs picking up, direct someone to do it!  Yeah, the coach might crack it but sticking blindly to Goodwin’s mantra is killing us. The bloke could not coach a pig to be dirty.

I reckon its Viney, Petracca Oliver and Brayshaw call on ruck taps. Hardly Preuss fault we lost.