Play Jack Viney forward

[old55 23,625]

I'm officially starting the #PlayJackVineyforward campaign. @A F and I have been banging on this drum for 2 years and I think now is the time to pull the trigger.

As everyone here knows, I'm a big Simon Goodwin fan and a big Jack Viney fan. 

Jack has been having a very good year in the midfield but the honest facts are that he's behind Christian Petracca and Clayton Oliver in the pecking order and he's very similar to Oliver in focus on first possession.  As has been widely discussed, the shorter quarters and season is providing less scope for midfield rotations and 3 starting mids instead of 4 is the current core requirement.  I think that Angus Brayshaw provides more of a point of difference in there and that Petracca, Oliver and Brayshaw is the go-to combination - another factor in this is that Angus has shown his breakaway from the stoppages delivers tremendous metres gained and he struggles to be effective elsewhere.

The facts are we're a developing team that's currently middle of the road and we need to make a quantum step to mix it with the best teams - the key problem has been our connection with the forward line but that has been improving with Weed's establishment.  Viney has all the attributes to make a real difference to converting our chances, locking it in and causing defender chaos balls if it does come back out.  He is incredible in the contest and has the rare ability to beat a couple of opponents that is required when outnumbered down there.  I laugh when I hear opposition supporters say he is slow - he is lightning over the first 3 metres, his tackling is legendary and opposition defenders will be crying themselves to sleep the night before playing us because if Jack doesn't get you, Kossie will and if you happen to escape the back 50 you'll run into Vanders.

Jack might see his move from the midfield as a demotion and might play angry - look out!  But the small forward role is glamour - I know he's a different type of player but think Robbie Gray. Toby Green and Cyril.  He can be a legend down there.

Come on Simon, you know it makes sense.

Edited August 10, 2020 by Pollyanna

[drdrake 3,178]

Really, the guys is a midfielder not a forward.  You need players with genuine speed and a creative mindset to play that small forward role.  I'm surprised that after the way Kosi and Bedford played in Round 1 we haven't seen that combination since. I wonder if Bedford didn't come back in good condition after the first lock down we haven't really heard of him either being considered.  The other is Chandler I didn't mind his couple of games he played last year, quick, tackled well and had a bit of X factor about him.

We need to stop looking at playing guys in roles that they don't really fit.  Brayshaw on a wing, Harmes off Half Back, Jones one a wing, Tmac down back.

Brayshaw/Viney/Oliver/Petracca/Swallow all can fit into our midfield rotations, the biggest issue we have with our mids is the ability to work both ways, having 5-6 players that can work through there means there is no excuses as you will get the rest you need.

[Adam The God 30,283]

39 minutes ago, Pollyanna said:

I'm officially starting the #PlayJackVineyforward campaign. @A F and I have been banging on this drum for 2 years and I think now is the time to pull the trigger.

As everyone here knows, I'm a big Simon Goodwin fan and a big Jack Viney fan. 

Jack has been having a very good year in the midfield but the honest facts are that he's behind Christian Petracca and Clayton Oliver in the pecking order and he's very similar to Oliver in focus on first possession.  As has been widely discussed, the shorter quarters and season is providing less scope for midfield rotations and 3 starting mids instead of 4 is the current core requirement.  I think that Angus Brayshaw provides more of a point of difference in there and that Petracca, Oliver and Brayshaw is the go-to combination - another factor in this is that Angus has shown his breakaway from the stoppages delivers tremendous metres gained and he struggles to be effective elsewhere.

The facts are we're a developing team that's currently middle of the road and we need to make a quantum step to mix it with the best teams - the key problem has been our connection with the forward line but that has been improving with Weed's establishment.  Viney has all the attributes to make a real difference to converting our chances, locking it in and causing defender chaos balls if it does come back out.  He is incredible in the contest and has the rare ability to beat a couple of opponents that is required when outnumbered down there.  I laugh when I hear opposition supporters say he is slow - he is lightning over the first 3 metres, his tackling is legendary and opposition defenders will be crying themselves to sleep the night before playing us because if Jack doesn't get you, Kossie will and if you happen to escape the back 50 you'll run into Vanders.

Jack might see his move from the midfield as a demotion and might play angry - look out!  But the small forward role is glamour - I know he's a different type of player but think Robbie Gray. Toby Green and Cyril.  He can be a legend down there.

Come on Simon, you know it makes sense.

I think this plays into how Goodwin wants to play territory as well. You've got to be able to lock the ball in there with sustained pressure and then convert your opportunities when they present themselves. 

To my mind, we weren't locking the ball in well enough earlier in the year and it's why teams could rebound against us too easily. I think we've shifted the focus slightly in the last two weeks to attack from half back, rather than the centre stoppage, but against the better teams it's absolutely imperative we build the pressure by locking it inside.

I think we need to pursue two talls, three mids sized and three pressure players rotating between the wing, half forward and inside 50.

My ideal personnel are as follows:

* two talls - Weideman and Jackson (McDonald as back up and at a stretch, Brown is depth too). 

* three mid sized - Melksham, Fritsch and Hannan (Bennell and Hannan probably competing for the last position here, but Bennell could eventually push up into the midfield).

* three pressure forwards - Kozzie, Viney, Harmes (Vanders can play here too, as well as on the wing, while ANB is depth here, Viney and Harmes can roll through the midfield if need be too).

[Pickett2Jackson 3,904]

Might work, might not.

[old55 23,625]

33 minutes ago, drdrake said:

Really, the guys is a midfielder not a forward.  You need players with genuine speed and a creative mindset to play that small forward role. 

You seem to have ignored my points that:

"He is incredible in the contest and has the rare ability to beat a couple of opponents that is required when outnumbered down there.  I laugh when I hear opposition supporters say he is slow - he is lightning over the first 3 metres (and) his tackling is legendary"

[Ham 741]

I rate the idea of trying him up forward.
Our midfield benefits with Brayshaw in and under.
Viney can and needs to used elsewhere. 

[Deemania since 56 6,658]

1 hour ago, Pollyanna said:

I laugh when I hear opposition supporters say he is slow - he is lightning over the first 3 metres, his tackling is legendary and opposition defenders will be crying themselves to sleep the night before playing us because if Jack doesn't get you, Kossie will and if you happen to escape the back 50 you'll run into Vanders.

Oh, the poetry of it all ... inspirational stuff and something we must exploit more often.

[DemonSam 171]

I posted about this in the Game plan thread that just popped up recently, I think its a great idea! 

My main problem is that Viney and Oliver can't play in a stoppage together, they literally fight over the ball.
Player either of them forward when one is on the ball.

Viney's defensive attributes would make him a great forward and we know he can go the footy.

[layzie 33,862]

I like the out of the box thinking. With Brayshaw clearly excelling in the middle it could be something to have Viney pinch hitting down there for bursts. 

Normally I'm of the same thinking that when someone is clearly a mid they should stay a mid but there has been evidence over time of players like this being re-invented. It's just something to think about. 

[Accepting Mediocrity 1,418]

Behind Oliver and Petracca (going early on Trac), Viney probably rates as our third best mid of the last 20 years (and possibly longer). He's severely underrated by many on here. He's currently sitting 12th in the AFL coaches votes and on track for yet another top 5 finish in the Bluey. That said, we clearly need to find a way to boost Brayshaw's midfield minutes. 

Viney sharks the odd goal and has great defensive attributes, but I suspect he lacks the creativity, vision and skills overhead that good forwards have.

Happy to see him spend a bit more time in the forwardline to accommodate Brayshaw, but I think Viney will always play his best footy in the middle.

 

Edited August 11, 2020 by Accepting Mediocrity

[Young Blood 2,631]

6 minutes ago, Accepting Mediocrity said:

Behind Oliver and Petracca (going early on Trac), Viney probably rates as our third best mid of the last 20 years (and possibly longer). He's severely underrated by many on here. That said, we clearly need to find a way to boost Brayshaw's midfield minutes. 

Viney sharks the odd goal and has great defensive attributes, but I suspect he lacks the creativity, vision and skills overhead that good forwards have.

Happy to see him spend a bit more time in the forwardline to accommodate Brayshaw, but I think Viney will always play his best footy in the middle.

 

I would say this is the main reason we haven't seen this trialed more. Similar two why we haven't seen Oliver or Brayshaw tried up forward. Unlike Petracca they don't have a great forward craft and creativity. All of their goals come from pretty straight forward opportunity. That being said I've always liked the idea of Viney forward as he has some of the attributes being smaller, lower centre of gravity, leg and hip strength/power to break some forward line pressure to free himself up for goal.

Definitely something I would like to see us try. Only thing is Viney is having a career best year in the middle and I doubt the coaching staff would be reducing his midfield minutes anytime soon.

[deelusions from afar 1,810]

I like the thinking - I'm sick of playing inside mids on wings and flanks whether it be Jones, Brayshaw or Harmes.

Surely if they're prepared to play Trac and Oliver forward then Viney in this role is worth a chance.
 

The alternative is that at least one (and maybe two) of Viney, Brayshaw and Harmes will not be at the club next year - the club would be negligent to not try to get value a the trade table for an area we have a surplus and the players themselves would be silly not to look for a team that will play them in their best position.

[TRIGON 4,783]

43 minutes ago, Pickett2Jackson said:

Might work, might not.

Only a closed mind can be truly certain!

When mentioning Viney forward in other threads I meant it from the perspective of helping to rotate our midfield mix - helping to ensure that we have a depth of options. Not such an issue in 2019's shortened games, however should come to the fore again next year.

[drdrake 3,178]

53 minutes ago, Pollyanna said:

You seem to have ignored my points that:

"He is incredible in the contest and has the rare ability to beat a couple of opponents that is required when outnumbered down there.  I laugh when I hear opposition supporters say he is slow - he is lightning over the first 3 metres (and) his tackling is legendary"

He isn't a forward, just because you can tackle doesn't mean you can play that forward pressure role.  You are looking at this to try and fit guys in the side.  Viney is in our midfield line up, same as Brayshaw/Oliver/Petracca and others they will all spend time resting on the bench and up forward, we need another exciting creative small forward, not a hard nosed midfielder to fill this role.

Also if Brayshaw is good enough and in form to have the 4 prog midfielders is ideal, lets not get to carried away he played well against North, prior to that he should have been dropped.  Lets see him play consistent high quality football for the next 7-10 games and assess from there. 

Edited August 11, 2020 by drdrake

[Dr. Gonzo 24,235]

I think it's robbing Peter to pay Paul a little. I'm not against the idea but Viney is fantastic in the middle and up until the Adelaide game was clearly performing better than Oliver this year. Oliver has stepped it up but Viney almost singlehandedly willed us over the line against the Lions.

We do need a point of difference in the middle but we could just as easily use Petracca as the "outside" midfielder delivering the ball instead of winning the contest.

The problem for me isn't Viney, the problem is Brayshaw's inability to play any other role. If he's as good on the outside as those who want him in the middle think then he should be perfectly suited to play the wing opposite Langdon on the other side. The fact he hasn't been able to own that position is a detriment to himself.

I'm for whatever makes the team better overall so if that means Viney as a pressure forward I'm all for it. I'm just not sure it will work out but it's worth giving it a shot.

[Cheesy D. Pun 1,765]

1 hour ago, Pollyanna said:

I'm officially starting the #PlayJackVineyforward campaign. @A F and I have been banging on this drum for 2 years and I think now is the time to pull the trigger.

As everyone here knows, I'm a big Simon Goodwin fan and a big Jack Viney fan. 

Jack has been having a very good year in the midfield but the honest facts are that he's behind Christian Petracca and Clayton Oliver in the pecking order and he's very similar to Oliver in focus on first possession.  As has been widely discussed, the shorter quarters and season is providing less scope for midfield rotations and 3 starting mids instead of 4 is the current core requirement.  I think that Angus Brayshaw provides more of a point of difference in there and that Petracca, Oliver and Brayshaw is the go-to combination - another factor in this is that Angus has shown his breakaway from the stoppages delivers tremendous metres gained and he struggles to be effective elsewhere.

The facts are we're a developing team that's currently middle of the road and we need to make a quantum step to mix it with the best teams - the key problem has been our connection with the forward line but that has been improving with Weed's establishment.  Viney has all the attributes to make a real difference to converting our chances, locking it in and causing defender chaos balls if it does come back out.  He is incredible in the contest and has the rare ability to beat a couple of opponents that is required when outnumbered down there.  I laugh when I hear opposition supporters say he is slow - he is lightning over the first 3 metres, his tackling is legendary and opposition defenders will be crying themselves to sleep the night before playing us because if Jack doesn't get you, Kossie will and if you happen to escape the back 50 you'll run into Vanders.

Jack might see his move from the midfield as a demotion and might play angry - look out!  But the small forward role is glamour - I know he's a different type of player but think Robbie Gray. Toby Green and Cyril.  He can be a legend down there.

Come on Simon, you know it makes sense.

I don't mind this.

We really only have 3 plausible choices here:

1. Play Viney forward

2. Trade Viney

3. Continue to play Brayshaw out of position

You can see why the coaching staff have gone the way they have - it's a very tough call.

Also, number 1 is a chance of causing number 2.

[Lucifers Hero 39,966]

Playing him fwd might look fine on paper but I don't think he is a fwd.

We can keep the 4 in the mid-field roles if we clearly define the 1st possession, 2nd possession and spread roles and players follow the rules rather than their instinct:  get ball.  Viney and Oliver primarily take 1st possessions.  Petracca and Brayshaw primarily take 2nd possessions to spread or clear the pack.  So we can always have 2 inside and 1 outside mid at the stoppages, not just centre bounces.  There are usually 60-80 stoppages a game so plenty of opportunity for each to play in their best role.  They all take a turn on the bench and they all take a turn resting forward.

I'm in the camp of re-training Viney to not compete with Oliver for first possession and teach him to give a team mate the 2nd possession for the clearance rather than trying to do it all himself.  But can you 'teach an old dog new tricks', I don't know. 

Remember Jack is OOC on Oct 30 and even tho the freeze on contract renewals was only recently lifted it strikes me as odd that no new contract for our vice captain, has been announced. 

Not having his dad at the club.  Losing the co-cap and people suggesting he should give up being part of the mids to roam far and wide, maybe more than the young man can take.  

Jack Viney, a cameo midfielder...don't think so!  Wouldn't want to be in the same room when someone gives him that news! 

Careful what you wish for.  He is an UFA.  He might decide to walk and go somewhere where he can play the role he loves.

Edited August 11, 2020 by Lucifer's Hero

[YesitwasaWin4theAges 6,704]

Viney is very clever around his body (snap v Adel on his right boot) and has excellent forward smarts eg. pressure acts, tackling, burst speed, clean on the ground and is a very reliable set shot.

This would improve him as a player for 30% of a game. We need both Gus and Viney playing in the guts just can't be at the same time.

[Undeeterred 3,124]

7 minutes ago, Cheesy D. Pun said:

I don't mind this.

We really only have 3 plausible choices here:

1. Play Viney forward

2. Trade Viney

3. Continue to play Brayshaw out of position

You can see why the coaching staff have gone the way they have - it's a very tough call.

Also, number 1 is a chance of causing number 2.

4. Trade Brayshaw

[Cheesy D. Pun 1,765]

1 minute ago, Undeeterred said:

4. Trade Brayshaw

Yeah, I suppose that's an option and to be honest, I don't know the answer.

I just think it's important that the questions are laid bare to show the enormity of the dilemma for the coaching staff.

You can criticise Goodwin for a fair bit, but the positional stuff around the Brayshaw and Harmes is ridiculous.

[Lucifers Hero 39,966]

9 minutes ago, Undeeterred said:

4. Trade Brayshaw

Doubt that will happen.  Goodwin gave him big raps after the game along the lines of he is a very smart footballer and will be with the club for a long time to come.

[Wiseblood 24,637]

Some really well constructed arguments above.  It was terrific to read.

However, this is still how I feel about it, even with the opening few posts taken into account:

20 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I think it's robbing Peter to pay Paul a little.

Jack Viney is terrific in the guts.  Yes, he might be a little one eyed in how he goes about it (see ball, get ball), but when he is on, he is just the sort of player who can turn a quarter for us, or help to will us over the line.  Oliver and Trac are starting to develop those traits on a consistent basis, but I think our issue is more to do with how we run players through the middle, than playing Viney forward.

However, I see the benefit in playing Viney forward for resting purposes.  Why can't he play 7-10 minutes there a term, putting on pressure (and with Jack down there much of it will be implied pressure - just having him there will have oppo defenders worried!) and hitting the scoreboard?  He can rotate a little with Trac, or even Clarry, to do this as I see the benefits it will bring.

But I still lay the issue at the feet of all our midfielders and our coaching group.  Why can't we look at ways to make all four of our premium mids (Trac, Oliver, Gus and Viney) co-exist on a more consistent basis?  We do have the capacity to rotate players in different positions more - three of the above can play forward, although I worry for someone like Gus as I don't really think he can play anywhere but in the midfield.

Some good points to consider, though.  Bringing Viney back into the side should make us better, not take anything away from the three guys who were in there for most of the game against North.  Very interested to see how we go over the next few weeks, but I don't think sending Viney forward for the majority of the game is the answer.

[Diamond_Jim 12,597]

15 minutes ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

Careful what you wish for.  He is an UFA.  He might decide to walk and go somewhere where he can play the role he loves.

That would give us a compo pick... probably high round 2 as I understand the rules.

Would not be a terrible result and less emotionally draining than trading him

[Wiseblood 24,637]

1 minute ago, Diamond_Jim said:

That would give us a compo pick... probably high round 2 as I understand the rules.

Would not be a terrible result and less emotionally draining than trading him

Except for the fact that this draft is massively compromised, and that high second round could easily become a mid to late second round, which wouldn't be even close to what Viney is worth.

[Lucifers Hero 39,966]

9 minutes ago, Diamond_Jim said:

That would give us a compo pick... probably high round 2 as I understand the rules.

Would not be a terrible result and less emotionally draining than trading him

Yes, a move as an FA gives us a compo pick.

If Viney decides to go (it won't be the clubs decision) it will be as an FA and we must help him get to the club of his choice.  He deserves that from us. 

I can't see any circumstance where we it would be a trade situation.  It would feel like the Jr situation all over again.  No one wins.

Might I add I hope we solve the dilemma and not lose him. 

Its inconceivable to think of him in any other colours than the red and the blue, colours he has worn since the day he was born.

Edited August 11, 2020 by Lucifer's Hero