CHANGES: Rd 12 vs Collingwood

[WERRIDEE 5,479]

3 minutes ago, Lord Travis said:

100% agreed. Vanders at his best was a fringe player. His output since returning to the side has been rubbish. He directly costs us goals every week out of stupidity. He barely touches the ball and when he does he couldn't hit the side of a barn. The game has sped up this past few years, but he has gotten slower due to repeated foot injuries. He reads the game poorly and barely gets to lay any of those big bone crunching tackles because he now can't keep up in the first place. There's a lot of love on here for Vanders, but I'd drop him on form. At 28 and slowing up, I'm not sure he has much of a role to play going forward. The 3 year contract was yet another glaring list management mistake.

For this match I'd have the following changes;
IN: Gawn, Viney, maybe Lockhart
OUT: Jones, Vandenburg, ??

Gawn and Viney straight in if fit. Lockhart had the hip issue, but I'd bring him back if fit also. Think Jones and Vandenburg have been poor this year, moreso Vanders. Harmes has had a poor few weeks, but wouldn't drop him.

Tommy couldn't possibly play we would be too tall with him in the side which is stiff because he did play well against North.

I don't think you could drop both Vanders and Chunk one needs to be there for their hardness. I'm starting to head towards Vanders being dropped due to the free kicks he's given away.

Lockhart could only come in for Harmes due to the 7 backman rule but I would keep Harmes to tag Sidebottom along with Sparrow and rotate through the backline when Sparrow is tagging Sidebottom so I would leave Lockhart out for another week.

 

[Altona-demon 321]

22 minutes ago, drdrake said:

Best thing is we have 6 days off.  It wouldn't hurt us for Jackson to run with Grundy if Gawn is still injured, Grundy is the similar type of player to Jackson, and would be a great learning experience for him.

Viney comes in for AVB, AVB is off the mark at the moment and needs a spell.

Tmac for Gawn if fit.

Really like this idea, great experience for Jacko to learn from probably the games best roving ruckman - can't believe Jacko's second efforts sometimes, he has no right to be able to get down to balls the way he does, and he has great hands as well (option selection often taking the wider longer handball to relieve pressure - rather than add it, as is the case for so many of our middle players).  

Did anyone else think that the midfield didn't miss Gawn that much?  Really Clarry, Petracca, Brayshaw are going to get enough of it, irrespective of ruck dominance.  It almost looked like a weight off their shoulders not worrying about having to run off shoulder for planned tapwork from Gawn - it looked more unpredictable and tbh that worked well.

The games that we have lost - have all been because our midfield has been predictable (and that includes Gawn's tapwork) and been able to be shut down.  In this game, Norf dominated the hitouts (Goldy had 25) yet we had parity or better in clearances - and this is probably the first time our midfield has had to shark in about two years.

I don't know - maybe its food for thought, but are we better team when we have this different look?

[DeeSpencer 25,723]

1 hour ago, Dr.D said:

If Brayshaw played a full season in the real midfield I'm confident he'd be a top 10 brownlow finisher. 

And this is why Goodwin agitates me. He was:

1: Wayyyyyy too slow to bring Weideman in.

2. Wayy too slow to take Oscar out.

3. Negligent for not putting Brayshaw in his natural position and stunted his development since 2018.

4. Never trialled anything in game. Against Port Adelaide I'm sure fans would've liked to have seen May in the forward line, or Lever on a wing or whatever. Something! Throw the bloody magnets around Simon for Christ's sake!

5. And just his overall game style has proven ineffective for our playing list. And he's been unable to get the most out of the players. 

1. Without the confidence of good practice match footy and the midfield using it better we might’ve killed Weid if we played him earlier. He earnt his spot, and played like he did.

2. Oscar was the answer 2 weeks ago, now he’s the problem again? 

3. Oliver, Petracca and Viney are just better. So was Harmes last year. Until that changes the put Gus on ball fans are missing the obvious. Beating up on a weak North side doesn’t mean Gus is a great mid again. 

4. Why? Wasn’t going to change that we were getting thumped. Leave things mostly the same and work on fighting back. He did move Fritsch to a wing and try to mix the forward line up. May was keeping Dixon quiet, which is more than most defenders have done this year. 

5. Is that true? We were effective in 2018 and we’ve been effective in probably 7 of 10 games this year. Apart from Harmes, Brayshaw (due to oversupply of mids) and Tom McDonald who is Goodwin not getting the most out of?

[Pickett2Jackson 3,904]

10 minutes ago, Hell Bent said:

Treloar is a massive out for them too. Hoskin Elliot to a lesser extent.

 

Didnt know Treloar was injured too......   geez if we lose this one.

[binman 43,134]

Torn on AVB.

I find it really difficult assessing players not seeing them live. Can't see what they do off ball and how hard they work to stop switching etc.

And of course don't know what metrics goody values most highly or what it is he asking players to do.

Lockhart is a good example. Low numbers but great pressure and his impact was perhaps more evident on his absence. Few on here dont expect him to come straight back in.

The big question is does AVB's work rate and physicality meet goodys kpis for him. And sufficiently compensate for his woeful kicking, low numbers and occasional brain fade?

I suspect the answer is yes.

If he is fit, we will see this Thursday night at selection. This is a big game for us and if goody picks him then we will know for sure where can sits in his plans

[Mel Bourne 4,515]

9 hours ago, Dr.D said:

Oliver has got to be dropped. His kicking by foot is a liability remember ?  Where are those fickle fans that wanted him dropped. Own it

For the record, I wasn’t one of those people. 
 

Something I’d like to see dropped however, are your tedious and utterly pointless contributions to this forum. 

[Demon Dynasty 17,109]

10 hours ago, DeeSpencer said:

Doesn’t tackle, can’t evade tackles, naturally isn’t strong in the air but he’s hardly winning it at ground level all that well either. Doesn’t break lines or burst out in space. 

He used it well enough and it’s always hard to value the importance of a guy who still knows pretty well where to run. 

But he’s an aging midfield playing wing/forward. If we’re a decent side we’ll have better options 

Is he playing a role (at present) that Harley would also be playing if fully fit i wonder?  If he is then to me that's a straight swap.  Don't get me wrong, Jonesy is doing ok but as you say, not tackling and playing a link role between the arcs with a bit through the middle on rare occasions.  While you wouldn't expect Harley to hit the middle contest much, if at all, i see Jones as getting in the way in there now anyway when he does and superfluous to our needs.

Harley, when fully fit, should also be able to push forward and kick a few goals at times as a bonus.  Something we are unlikely to see from the Jones boy very often from here.  This is not a slight on Jones either, he's done the hard yards and been a grand player/clubman.  Just where he is presently at in his career.  I still think there's a little more in the tank also once he gets fully match fit so not unhappy to see him stay for now but plays much better closer to the attacking arc than the defensive one.  Mind you his kicking on the weekend wasn't too bad at all and he was involved in 6 of our scoring chains.

Edited August 10, 2020 by Rusty Nails

[DeeSpencer 25,723]

12 minutes ago, Rusty Nails said:

Is he playing a role (at present) that Harley would also be playing if fully fit i wonder?  If he is then to me that's a straight swap.  Don't get me wrong, Jonesy is doing ok but as you say, not tackling and playing a link role between the arcs with a bit through the middle on rare occasions.  While you wouldn't expect Harley to hit the middle contest much, if at all, i see Jones as getting in the way in there now anyway when he does and superfluous to our needs.

Harley, when fully fit, should also be able to push forward and kick a few goals at times as a bonus.  Something we are unlikely to see from the Jones boy very often from here.  This is not a slight on Jones either, he's done the hard yards and been a grand player/clubman.  Just where he is presently at in his career.  I still think there's a little more in the tank also once he gets fully match fit so not unhappy to see him stay for now but plays much better closer to the attacking arc than the defensive one.  Mind you his kicking on the weekend wasn't too bad at all and he was involved in 6 of our scoring chains.

Jones came in to the side as the second winger when Vanders was out, then the last two weeks has played a bit wing and a bit half forward. Kind of a mix of Gus’ wing minutes and Harley’s half forward role. I think it’s about the best use of Jones’ tank and ability to get to good spots.

They’ve been reluctant to entrust Bennell with any wing time (fitness and defensive efforts) but it’s nearing time to free him up from the pure forward flank and in to that kind of role.

Otherwise Harmes and Sparrow should be used in this kind of role. Or If you want to keep Harmes back in the hope he settles down we could try Rivers. His tank would be the main issue, otherwise he has a lot of the attributes we’re desperately searching for on the wing. 

[old55 23,625]

10 hours ago, Dr.D said:

Oliver has got to be dropped. His kicking by foot is a liability remember ?  Where are those fickle fans that wanted him dropped. Own it

@Elegt started that thread. How about you and him head off to the PMs and go 15 rounds there and do us all a favour?

[Demon Dynasty 17,109]

5 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

Jones came in to the side as the second winger when Vanders was out, then the last two weeks has played a bit wing and a bit half forward. Kind of a mix of Gus’ wing minutes and Harley’s half forward role. I think it’s about the best use of Jones’ tank and ability to get to good spots.

They’ve been reluctant to entrust Bennell with any wing time (fitness and defensive efforts) but it’s nearing time to free him up from the pure forward flank and in to that kind of role.

Otherwise Harmes and Sparrow should be used in this kind of role. Or If you want to keep Harmes back in the hope he settles down we could try Rivers. His tank would be the main issue, otherwise he has a lot of the attributes we’re desperately searching for on the wing. 

Thanks DS.  Looks like Harley is struggling to get to the required fitness level at present then.  Otherwise, IF fully fit or very close, he seems like the obvious player to take over from a sluggish Tomo/AVB &/or Chunk other than say Harmes playing a run with or lock down on an inside/outside mid like Sidey.  Anyway it is what it is.

Edited August 10, 2020 by Rusty Nails

[old55 23,625]

Smith, OMac, Tomlinson - for various reasons none of them are the solution as the defensive tall back.  I'm not against trying Tmac back there again in that role.  There were problems when he was the main man back there but now with May and Lever he could be an effective role player.  It would give us some flexibility in case of in game injury too.

Long term I think Petty is the answer.

Edited August 10, 2020 by Pollyanna

[rjay 24,983]

55 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

3. Oliver, Petracca and Viney are just better. So was Harmes last year. Until that changes the put Gus on ball fans are missing the obvious. Beating up on a weak North side doesn’t mean Gus is a great mid again. 

It's not about better...it's how they work together.

Oliver, Tac and Brayshaw work better as a grouping.

This is not just an observation on one game.

[rjay 24,983]

1 hour ago, Hell Bent said:

Treloar is a massive out for them too. Hoskin Elliot to a lesser extent.

Sidebottom is THE danger man,  also they have good runners off halfback in Crisp and Maynard is having a great year. Nullify these 3 and win. 

I would definitely run Harmes on Sidebottom this game...

Maynard, I would play either Jack on him or give Melk a task.

He is their prime mover from defence with Howe out.

[deespicable me 1,487]

I think there is a logjam between avb, Jones, Sparrow, Rivers, Harmes, Jetta and Lockhart. There is probs room for 3 to 5 of the seven.

I'd prefer to stick with Sparrow, Rivers and Lockhart. I think Harmes who is get ball kick ball, is a liability down back, his turn overs result in goals and when he tries to take more time and hit a target he isn't playing his natural game and again is not very good. There is a little bit of room in the midfield rotations but for me Sparrow deserves to develop and see how far he can rise. 

Harmes is a good mark but Rivers offers something again to develop and for me Lockhart or Jetta are important to balance so one has to come back in.  So I'm left with a choice between AVB, Jones and Harmes for one spot. They offer good grunt and should play two of when wet but when skills are high only one of.

[Flower Magic 776]

Minimum changes to a winning side please.

In: Gawn, Viney

Out: Tomlinson, AVB

Play TMac at CHB.

[Hellaintabadplacetobe 4,294]

44 minutes ago, rjay said:

I would definitely run Harmes on Sidebottom this game...

Maynard, I would play either Jack on him or give Melk a task.

He is their prime mover from defence with Howe out.

Agree on all. Wouldn't hurt to have Jack on Maynard and Melk on Crisp. 

[binman 43,134]

3 hours ago, titan_uranus said:

I'm not saying Tomlinson was good, but much like you spun OMac's game vs Port to suggest it was better than it was,

I reckon this is unfair, titan. 

I never 'spun' Omac's game to suggest it was better than it was. I acknowledged a number of times he had a poor game.

I simply refuted the incorrect claims he was beaten by Georgiades. I did so in as objective a way as possible. i looked at the evidence. In some detail. 

As you did with Tomlinson.

The big difference is that with Omac there was no judgement or opinion required.

The clear, unambiguous FACT is Omac was not on Georgiades for ANY of his three goals. That is not an opinion. It is a verifiable fact.

So not one of those goals could be blamed on omac. Lever maybe, Omac no. But that doesn't seem to suit some people's narratives

Which of course does not mean he didn't play poorly. As i acknowledged, he did, though plenty played worse.

And those that buy the Georgiades narrative perhaps see things so black and white that him being dropped is evidence that narrative is correct - see i told you he got dropped because he got schooled by a kid. Please. 

The situation with Tomlinson is completely different to that of Omac with georgiades.

Let's leave the Daw goal aside and put that one down to not being great at reading the drop of the ball and not automatically protecting the goal side.  A rookie defender's mistake

But with Larkey's first and second goals of the game, as you yourself note it is fact Tomlinson was on him.

On both occasions he was his direct opponent and therefore responsible for preventing him marking. 

He gave away a panicky free kick when caught out of position and then couldn't effect a spoil and so was beaten in a contested marking contest (by the by he was similarly beaten by Himelburg against the crows, another young big he had to be moved off).

Sure AVB gifted the first of those but the fact remains he would not have goaled if not for the free (and may well still have done so even without the 50)

It is your OPINION these goals were not Tomlinson fault. I don't share that opinion, but that's ok, we all see the things differently and apply different metrics.

But facts are a different matter altogether to opinion.

And the facts are larkey kicked two goals on Tomlinosn and georgiades none on Omac.

 

[Lord Nev 13,512]

10 minutes ago, Flower Magic said:

Minimum changes to a winning side please.

In: Gawn, Viney

Out: Tomlinson, AVB

Play TMac at CHB.

?

 

[Nelo 813]

3 hours ago, Dr.D said:

If Brayshaw played a full season in the real midfield I'm confident he'd be a top 10 brownlow finisher. 

And this is why Goodwin agitates me. He was:

1: Wayyyyyy too slow to bring Weideman in.

2. Wayy too slow to take Oscar out.

3. Negligent for not putting Brayshaw in his natural position and stunted his development since 2018.

4. Never trialled anything in game. Against Port Adelaide I'm sure fans would've liked to have seen May in the forward line, or Lever on a wing or whatever. Something! Throw the bloody magnets around Simon for Christ's sake!

5. And just his overall game style has proven ineffective for our playing list. And he's been unable to get the most out of the players. 

Add to the list, playing Fritsch in the backline when he’s a natural forward. I know it was last year but highlights the point of being slow to react. Some argument to keeping Harmes as a tagger too. Understand it’s hard to fit everyone into the midfield. 

[YesitwasaWin4theAges 6,704]

2 hours ago, Hogans Demons said:

Gee people are quick to discard Jones. Was a different story with Jordan Lewis who was similarly done, Jones when playing fwd of the ball has the smarts to put players to advantage.

For me.

Out- Tmac Tomlinson Harmes (If the Pies play Cox)

IN- Gawn Viney Omac

 

I can't actually see what a 6ft4 winger who is about as physical a pensioners fart brings to our team.

Tmac was ok, but 3 Key Forwards at the Gabba does not work!

Harmes might just need a spell, wake up call to reset himself for the back half.

Jones to the astonishment of some played a very smart game last night. 

Some of his contested ball wins on the half fwd line resulting in 2 goals and a deep entry to Weed 1on1 in the goal square had the Dee faithful on their feet applauding the Great man as he came off for a rotation.

[Hogans Demons 41]

1 minute ago, Win4theAges said:

Jones to the astonishment of some played a very smart game last night. 

Some of his contested ball wins on the half fwd line resulting in 2 goals and a deep entry to Weed 1on1 in the goal square had the Dee faithful on their feet applauding the Great man as he came off for a rotation.

Couldn't agree more! Might not have the power in the legs but he hasn't lost his smarts!

[Tracca 850]

2 hours ago, jumbo returns said:

I’d rather the team play two players less if these two are the only option

haha

[Lord Nev 13,512]

3 hours ago, Caligula's cohort said:

Actually he gave away a free kick last week for pushing an opponent in the back while he was already down, and yesterday he ran through the mark. Were they brain fades? yes... but he'll learn from that.

Seriously? He'll 'learn' not to give away absolutely stupid frees and 50s? At 28?

If he had been dropped before the North game, as he should have, maybe he could have 'learned' something.

[Waltham33 475]

2 hours ago, Hell Bent said:

Treloar is a massive out for them too. Hoskin Elliot to a lesser extent.

Sidebottom is THE danger man,  also they have good runners off halfback in Crisp and Maynard is having a great year. Nullify these 3 and win. 

Pies i think get us with their pace and outside run.  Should neither Treloar or HE play, this will assist immensely

[Dr.D 1,771]

3 hours ago, La Dee-vina Comedia said:

You may be right. But the alternative argument might be that Weideman would not be playing as well as he is now if he had been brought back sooner. We will never know.

We knew from 2018 that he was wayy too good to not make a 17th placed football club. it's clearly Goodwin