On 14/06/2020 at 01:45, jnrmac said:

2018 is increasingly looking like an anomoly year.

Goodwin has zero motivational skills and is incapable of stopping basic football mistakes like 4 defenders flying for a mark or long-bombing to our forward line.

 

Other than that he's a great coach.

2013: 2 wins

2014: 4 wins

2015: 7 wins

2016: 10 wins

2017: 12 wins

2018: 14 wins

2019: 5 wins

There was nothing statistically unexpected about our performance in 2018, it had been consistently building since Roos started.  The 'anomaly' in the last seven years is 2019.  2020 will tell us more about whether or not this is the start of a new trend, but it is way too early to call.

 

I'm surprised that no one mentions Brad Scott. Love him or as many do.. hate him he maximised the talent at North which is better than Goodwin has done.

  On 14/06/2020 at 05:26, TeamPlayedFine39 said:

There's no way we can pay out two years of a coach's contract and hire a new one, all whilst holding a hand out to the AFL for funds to keep the club running at its most basic level.  The AFL would be negligent if they allowed us to do that.  We will not attract 1.5 million dollars worth of additional members if Goodwin is sacked.

(we're also 1 win, 1 loss, two rounds into a new season.) 

I agree completely. Nor do I think he should be sacked. I was just making the point for those who seem to be death-riding him that there's no way he's getting sacked this year or next year either. At the very least he is our coach til the end of 2021 and likely til the end of 2022.

  On 14/06/2020 at 05:55, Diamond_Jim said:

I'm surprised that no one mentions Brad Scott. Love him or as many do.. hate him he maximised the talent at North which is better than Goodwin has done.

Oh, [censored]!

Do these modern coaching contracts have any sort of KPI clause in them? Genuine question? I have no idea how modern football contracts work, but surely there would be a get out clause? Or is that not allowed in the AFL? It’s amazing that a coach, who isn’t meeting his KPI’s can survive and demand a payout if underperforming 

  On 14/06/2020 at 05:26, TeamPlayedFine39 said:

There's no way we can pay out two years of a coach's contract and hire a new one, all whilst holding a hand out to the AFL for funds to keep the club running at its most basic level.  The AFL would be negligent if they allowed us to do that.  We will not attract 1.5 million dollars worth of additional members if Goodwin is sacked.

(we're also 1 win, 1 loss, two rounds into a new season.) 

There's always Job Keeper TPF39

There's a few things in favour of Goodwin being retained until at least the end of 2021

The biggie is the financial aspect ... as others here have pointed out paying Goodwin out is an added expense we simply can't afford.  Let's not forget that we posted up a loss of $1.5Million in 2019 despite still receiving the Pokies & NT money.

And we are going to be front and centre with our hand out to the AFL to help try and balance the books this year & next.

I reckon we'll win enough games this year to keep his head above water too.  7 or 8 wins will suffice in a 17 round season.  Now,  that's not my ambition for the club more so what I reckon will probably happen.

And we did win 2 finals in 2018 so there's that.  The players are more at fault in my opinion ... self satisfied and we switch off when we shouldn't (all too often) 

We've got too many on our list who just aren't up to it.  We're a decent side on paper only.  The same blokes who can play well go missing way too much ... the 2nd half against Carlton was your perfect example

Goodwin may not be a great coach but he's not nearly as incompetent as many here make out. 

We could change the coach but I'm not sure the results would change that much.

Not saying he'll get fired, really don't think it will happen this year (barring absolute capitulation), BUT we're all talking about the financial aspect without perhaps knowing if covid-19 may affect that?

He's already on a pretty reduced amount now, that's on record, so would that mean his payout would be reduced also? Would there even be some other kind of condition in the contract about extreme circumstances? The AFLPA are about to renegotiate their CBA, so there's pay cuts going on everywhere already.

Genuine questions, don't know the answers, but is there a possibility that paying out a coach this year has about the same impact as it would any other year?

  On 14/06/2020 at 11:15, Lord Nev said:

Not saying he'll get fired, really don't think it will happen this year (barring absolute capitulation), BUT we're all talking about the financial aspect without perhaps knowing if covid-19 may affect that?

He's already on a pretty reduced amount now, that's on record, so would that mean his payout would be reduced also? Would there even be some other kind of condition in the contract about extreme circumstances? The AFLPA are about to renegotiate their CBA, so there's pay cuts going on everywhere already.

Genuine questions, don't know the answers, but is there a possibility that paying out a coach this year has about the same impact as it would any other year?

I would've thought any reduction in salary would be for this year only - so we would still be on the hook for his original contracted salary for 2021/22 should we sack him. I don't know but that is what I assume.

I can imagine this thread if we had lost by a point.

  On 14/06/2020 at 05:26, TeamPlayedFine39 said:

There's no way we can pay out two years of a coach's contract and hire a new one, all whilst holding a hand out to the AFL for funds to keep the club running at its most basic level. 

And we wouldn't want to.

Goodwin is doing a very good job.  But most wouldn't recognise anything beyond the ladder positioning.  He needs support from us, to discipline the players where necessary.  Not being potted all the time, for trying to invent the new Mfc.

It doesn't happen as quickly as most would hope for.

Good topic, Hawthorn seemed to have a Plan B against Geelong, I know, it was fall in a heap

Must be wrong strategy   

 

  On 14/06/2020 at 10:29, Leoncelli_36 said:

Do these modern coaching contracts have any sort of KPI clause in them? Genuine question? I have no idea how modern football contracts work, but surely there would be a get out clause? Or is that not allowed in the AFL? It’s amazing that a coach, who isn’t meeting his KPI’s can survive and demand a payout if underperforming 

The player contracts have rules but for coaches it's open slather.

We go caught in the classic squeeze ( when does MFC not) between the purple patch of the end of 2018 and the rumour that the Adelaide clubs were after him.

He and his manager were slow to sign.

Were we played. ...???

  On 14/06/2020 at 05:55, Diamond_Jim said:

I'm surprised that no one mentions Brad Scott. Love him or as many do.. hate him he maximised the talent at North which is better than Goodwin has done.

One things for sure.

If Goodwin goes we won't be able to chance another rookie coach like Yze.

Brad Scott, Ross Lyon, make a play for Chris Scott or even Clarkson.

I don’t think there needs to be a knee-jerk reaction BUT:

- We have a collection of very good players, who are about to reach/are in their prime.

 

- Whilst SG’s man management seems very strong - the players all appear to love him - his tactical ability (most noticeably in-game strategy) appears to be sorely lacking. Motivation can get you so far, but ultimately you need to be able to move the chess pieces around successfully.

 

- SG’s pressers are very corporate speak (so are Buckley’s, by the way) and whilst we are told he is playing a straight bat, I can’t help thinking that this is the same way he talks behind closed doors. I worry that the lack of talk about the game strategy and instead talking about ‘learnings’ and ‘culture’ and ‘brand’ are perhaps masking deficiencies?

 

- I really hope that he does succeed: Buckley and Hardwick both took a fairly long time to click into gear, so maybe it will be the same for SG. However, we can’t be ‘building’ for ever...

  On 13/06/2020 at 23:22, drysdale demon said:

To sack Goodwin at the end of this year would just send the club back a number of years in it's progress but hey, we have to keep the the fans invigorated so we can win games. 

Given that our current progress is backwards at a rapid rate, setting the club back a number of years would be a good thing.

Or have you forgotten that we played in a preliminary final two years ago?

Remind me again what positional moves or tactical changes Goodwin made to change the course of the game when Carlton had sixteen more scoring shots than us in the last 2.5 quarters on Saturday.

That said, I don't think he'll be sacked either, mainly because the board would have to admit that they were so comprehensively wrong in extending his contract.

  On 14/06/2020 at 22:54, 3183 Dee said:

SG’s pressers are very corporate speak (so are Buckley’s, by the way) and whilst we are told he is playing a straight bat, I can’t help thinking that this is the same way he talks behind closed doors.

All the footage we've seen from 'behind closed doors', including the stuff in To Hell And Back clearly paints the picture that Goody is just as uninspiring when speaking to the players as he is with the media.

 

  On 14/06/2020 at 23:53, Lord Nev said:

All the footage we've seen from 'behind closed doors', including the stuff in To Hell And Back clearly paints the picture that Goody is just as uninspiring when speaking to the players as he is with the media.

 

It obviously inspired you to post.

  On 14/06/2020 at 23:41, poita said:

Given that our current progress is backwards at a rapid rate, setting the club back a number of years would be a good thing.

Or have you forgotten that we played in a preliminary final two years ago?

Remind me again what positional moves or tactical changes Goodwin made to change the course of the game when Carlton had sixteen more scoring shots than us in the last 2.5 quarters on Saturday.

That said, I don't think he'll be sacked either, mainly because the board would have to admit that they were so comprehensively wrong in extending his contract.

Probably the same moves that Buckley made after quarter time and that Clarkson made during the whole game, then again it may have been the same tactics that Simpson employed against Gold Coast.

Whats John Northey up to these days?  Best coach we have had since  1964 and he was tough as nails.

Goody way too soft on the players.

  On 15/06/2020 at 00:12, drysdale demon said:

Probably the same moves that Buckley made after quarter time and that Clarkson made during the whole game, then again it may have been the same tactics that Simpson employed against Gold Coast.

Take your point, but Clarkson and Simpson have both won GFs and Buckley has gone as close as possible. 

  On 15/06/2020 at 00:09, drysdale demon said:

It obviously inspired you to post.

Look, you seem like a reasonably sharp poster, I'm not sure why so many of your posts are these kinds of snarky comments. Why not discuss the actual point? If you have a contrary view based on evidence I've got an open mind about things and would be interested to hear it.

  On 15/06/2020 at 00:22, Lord Nev said:

Look, you seem like a reasonably sharp poster, I'm not sure why so many of your posts are these kinds of snarky comments. Why not discuss the actual point? If you have a contrary view based on evidence I've got an open mind about things and would be interested to hear it.

Perhaps just for a bit of levity.

The players are very young men, and playing for a perennially unsuccessful club - they need a father figure type of coach.  Greater wisdom than their own. 

Norm Smith was tough in an era that had quite different values to what we have today; he was also apparently great at getting the players to bond; but his real greatness has to have been his outstanding football nous.  He drew respect as much as fear (or love), and engendered self-belief and trust in the whole.  

Without an established culture of success, we do need the continuing input of a coach who sees more than the players have ingrained in themselves - and Melbourne appears to have struggled ever since the aura of Roos has faded.  Goodwin being loved is not enough - it's not producing the outcome we want to see.

What we can expect the players to be bringing, for the coach to build with, is their own skills - which a wise coach would be maximising - not trying to re-shape.  Play them in their natural positions, and let them get confidence out of their own natural talent as well as from the coach's input.  Validate them, surely - how else are they going to grow in confidence?

Change can be disruptive, of course, but maybe change needs to be considered.  English Soccer clubs aren't afraid of making leadership changes, and it doesn't seem to do them harm.  Even if it is risky, persevering with what isn't working is guaranteed failure.  Think twelve months too many of Neild.  So I hope people at the club are clear about what KPI's are guiding them in their ongoing evaluation of Goodwin.  I hope they have clear ideas about the sorts of principles that make coaches successful.  I hope they learned from their experience of Roos.

I remember going to a practice match against the Ballarat league in 1964, and listening to Norm Smith give his three-quarter time address,  after which he left the ground and drove back to Melbourne - leaving the players to get on with it.   No problem - such different times; a successful well-oiled machine...  Everything seems so fragile today - brittle, permanently a whisker away from disintegrating; no consolidating patterns in anything.  When Melbourne were 7.3 to nothing, I switched it off and said to my wife, "I don't trust it..."  You can criticise this supporter for that, same as you can bag out players for what's wrong with them - but someone has to be able to turn the ship around - and it's not my fault, or Jack Watts' fault - it's the guy on the bridge who has to be steering.

 

  On 15/06/2020 at 00:41, robbiefrom13 said:

The players are very young men, and playing for a perennially unsuccessful club - they need a father figure type of coach.  Greater wisdom than their own. 

Norm Smith was tough in an era that had quite different values to what we have today; he was also apparently great at getting the players to bond; but his real greatness has to have been his outstanding football nous.  He drew respect as much as fear (or love), and engendered self-belief and trust in the whole.  

Without an established culture of success, we do need the continuing input of a coach who sees more than the players have ingrained in themselves - and Melbourne appears to have struggled ever since the aura of Roos has faded.  Goodwin being loved is not enough - it's not producing the outcome we want to see.

What we can expect the players to be bringing, for the coach to build with, is their own skills - which a wise coach would be maximising - not trying to re-shape.  Play them in their natural positions, and let them get confidence out of their own natural talent as well as from the coach's input.  Validate them, surely - how else are they going to grow in confidence?

Change can be disruptive, of course, but maybe change needs to be considered.  English Soccer clubs aren't afraid of making leadership changes, and it doesn't seem to do them harm.  Even if it is risky, persevering with what isn't working is guaranteed failure.  Think twelve months too many of Neild.  So I hope people at the club are clear about what KPI's are guiding them in their ongoing evaluation of Goodwin.  I hope they have clear ideas about the sorts of principles that make coaches successful.  I hope they learned from their experience of Roos.

I remember going to a practice match against the Ballarat league in 1964, and listening to Norm Smith give his three-quarter time address,  after which he left the ground and drove back to Melbourne - leaving the players to get on with it.   No problem - such different times; a successful well-oiled machine...  Everything seems so fragile today - brittle, permanently a whisker away from disintegrating; no consolidating patterns in anything.  When Melbourne were 7.3 to nothing, I switched it off and said to my wife, "I don't trust it..."  You can criticise this supporter for that, same as you can bag out players for what's wrong with them - but someone has to be able to turn the ship around - and it's not my fault, or Jack Watts' fault - it's the guy on the bridge who has to be steering.

 

Fantastic, balanced post. As an Englishman, though, I have to say that the managerial merry go round in the football league (often on the whim of an egocentric chairman) is probably too far the other way.