Where did it all go wrong for the Demons?

[Macca 16,173]

3 minutes ago, MyFavouriteMartian said:

Blew or no Blew...  its totally irrelevant,  and just a sideshow to the real reasons of our deemise.

 

The real reason is the disconnect between the Board and the clubs people.   Hence the lacking support for Norm's position.  And also the lack of support in finance to secure our players,  and to build improved facilities for training,  and socially.

Not too much different today.

 

So, the roadblock is always at the Board level,  to provide the necessary action for the club to prosper.

The umpire element is not irrelevent at all.  In fact it plays a huge part.  Resentment followed as well as the ongoing lack of support (IMO)

[MyFavouriteMartian 572]

2 minutes ago, Macca said:

The umpire element is not irrelevent at all.  In fact it plays a huge part.  Resentment followed as well as the ongoing lack of support (IMO)

It doesn't play a huge part  to the reason of our demise.   It's only to do with the tiff between Board, and Norm,  2 years prior to Norm being sacked.

 

Blew has nothing to do with why the club has struggled ever since.

[Macca 16,173]

2 minutes ago, MyFavouriteMartian said:

 

Lets agree to disagree

I'm not trying to change your mind nor are you ever going to see it my way.

 

[Tim 2,791]

On 5/17/2020 at 1:44 PM, bush demon said:

If you watch the '65 grand final on YouTube between StKilda and Essendon it is easy to see that the talented players were gravitating to other clubs. StKilda and Essendon were two teams that showed us up mid '65 when we were unbeaten.

I’ve had a look online at the data on AFL Tables for this time, and it’s intriguing. It’s like a Gothic Horror.

After round 8 we were top of the ladder, undefeated and the reigning premier. Apart from giving lowly Fitzroy a touch up the wins were pretty much unconvincing and narrow. Round 8 was one exception, and that match was the first against Barassi; we won by 37 in front of over 41,000 at Princes Park (Carlton kicked badly: 6.22). Rover John Townsend was emblematic of the day, taking a towering mark over John Nicholls as we asserted ourselves around the ground.

The following 2 weeks were the ones mentioned by Bushie, and that’s the car crash that augured decades of mediocrity. Bottled hubris must have been consumed by the crate load in the post-match at Carlton in round 8 that Saturday evening as the juggernaut of the Demon Master crushed the Pupil at their first outing as opposing coaches. In fact it was the last gasp of our greatness. Biblical!

I was a youngster at that time and I can still remember how distressing the collapse of the club as a power was, and how rapidly it happened. Feared as we had been, it was not to be any more. 

Interestingly, the following year (1966) was one in which we sat near the bottom; we had a massive recruiting effort bringing in a large number of new players but sadly uncovered little of top quality. The vibe was that Jim Cardwell and Norm would weave their magic again, but in retrospect it was trying to put an old template on a new and different era, as mentioned elsewhere here. 

I don’t know what the answer is, and there is a lot of self-laceration over the way things have gone and as to how we could have done it better. I just thought the circumstances were unusual and interesting to relate. 

Edited May 19, 2020 by Tim

[Dr. Gonzo 22,412]

1 hour ago, Macca said:

It can't be presumed that Don Blew was a cheat even though that was the alleged accusation

It could be presumed that Don Blew was a fair and unbiased umpire,  a family man with children at school and holding down a job outside football etc etc.

And the most powerful figure in football labels him a cheat.  These days those accusations would be seen as bullying etc. 

Norm made a mistake,  he wasn't perfect,  no one is.  And I reckon he would have regretted the words that he said.  Lets face it,  the chain of events that followed wouldn't have taken the same path if Norm had said nothing.

Did he call him a cheat? The only quote I can find is from DemonWiki which says Smith called him "subconsciously biased" - that is a lot different to calling someone a cheat! A bit precious from Blew to take it to Court.

[Sir Why You Little 34,434]

Don’t forget Norm was a Collingwood boy before he came over to Melbourne. He was working class in the eyes of the Melbourne Club hierachy

The Umpire Blew situation is very interesting. Norm believed he cheated and put his job on the line

It must have been a very serious accusation 

Such a pity no vision exists

[Dr. Gonzo 22,412]

20 hours ago, george_on_the_outer said:

Having been following the MFC for a long, long time and  wishing to make all the arguments raised so far into something concise...what I have seen for myself and have read about in the various histories of the Club, is that the common factor which has caused our demise is:

Lack of Resources, and/or the willingness to apply resources to winning football matches.

In "The Red Fox" there are multiple stories of the arguments that Smith had with the committee, long before his sacking in 1965.  All of them were about resources.  Other clubs were recruiting players and paying them good money, like Polly Farmer, Darryl Baldock etc, but the MCC committee refused to participate in this. 

Even before this we had the stories of Fanning and others who left at the height of their careers, simply because they could earn a living playing football in country leagues. 

In 1964 the days of the amateur player were as good as over.  Even Barassi was offered 3,000 pounds and a 10,000 pound loan to join Carlton, which  he said was something he would not have got at Melbourne. 

But the MCC committee still continued to stick its head in the sand, about what was happening.  Until Barassi returned and made an ultimately futile attempt to turn the club into a professional operation, by removing it from the MCC, the Club was simply bled dry of talent or watched that talent disappear to other clubs.  Zones that we had were not developed.  Recruiting and more importantly, development was not done in those zones.  They were just left to their own devices, while the MCC concentrated on what it was formed for...cricket. Contrast that with the work that Hawthorn and Richmond were doing in their zones.  

A friend of mine who worked as a teacher in the Eastern suburbs in the 80's said that any school that asked for a Hawthorn player to turn up to meet with the kids, kick a footy, were always obliged.  Small wonder their supporter base grew over the subsequent periods.

The MFC was banned from training at the MCG from 1985, so off to the Junction oval we were sent....to stay for the next 25 years!  How much was spent by the MCC on facilities there....so little that the MFC Coterie group had to chip in to get a portable for the coaches to have a room to work in.  Then the footballers were tossed out during cricket season in any case as it was still used to play games. 

It was a miracle that we had any success during this period!  Other clubs were establishing proper facilities, were buying players from interstate, making offers to any talented players to join while Melbourne watched the likes of Healy, Spalding, Thompson and other disappear or players like Jarman not come.  Why would they not?!

It was not until the Stynes team convinced the MCC to kick in $1M per year that the club got any revenue from them for nearly 25 years.  Even today 25,000 MCC members identify with the MFC, but as was pointed out at last years AGM, 4-5,000 of them come to more than 5 matches and don't take out a MCC/MFC membership.  The MCC gets all the loot from football, yet gives little back.  Same as in Norm Smith's day.

It first really struck me about 30 years ago at at MFC AGM.  The total assets of the club which had then been operating for nearly 150 years was less than the average house value in Melbourne!  That was fine when you were running an amateur organisation, but this was supposed to be a professional operation. 

I can't remember who said it, but it was claimed that the MFC were "the most professional in the amateur era, and the most amateur in the professional era.  Small wonder there has been so little success".

 

This is a great post and goes to the heart of the matter. Without wanting to sound like a robo-coach you need the structures and support in place to be able to foster a successful environment. We don't have a suburban heartland to draw inspiration from like the Doggies or Tigers so we need to market ourselves like a Collingwood or Hawthorn - that is ultra-professional with the best available facilities etc leaving no stone unturned to achieve success. It is the only way. Training on a park next to a freeway has to have an impact on the players even if only subconsciously. It's like, if the club isn't going to invest in us then how hard can we really be pushing ourselves?

We need to lean on our connections with both MCC, the top end of town and in political circles. That is not to say the ordinary supporters should be disenfranchised or forgotten but to create the successful environment we need the resources and influence of those who can assist.

[Dr. Gonzo 22,412]

8 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

Don’t forget Norm was a Collingwood boy before he came over to Melbourne. He was working class in the eyes of the Melbourne Club hierachy

The Umpire Blew situation is very interesting. Norm believed he cheated and put his job on the line

It must have been a very serious accusation 

Such a pity no vision exists

That's right, Norm grew up in the inner (at those times farmland!) suburbs of Northcote and Westgarth. Norm and Checker, two from outside the usual ranks of the Melbourne Establishment, were the heart and soul of the club for almost 4 decades during which we dominated the competition and won 10 flags. They put the Demon fire into the Melbourne CC/FC belly. We need to embrace the Demon, it is barely existent these days.

[Macca 16,173]

16 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Did he call him a cheat? The only quote I can find is from DemonWiki which says Smith called him "subconsciously biased" - that is a lot different to calling someone a cheat! A bit precious from Blew to take it to Court.

Not if the word cheat was used Gonzo

If the word wasn't used (proof positive) then I will have a different opinion

All the articles I've come across mentions the word cheat. 

e.g Barassi referenced the word 'chest' in that clip you posted up.

Edited May 19, 2020 by Macca

[Half forward flank 1,022]

As I said elsewhere we have not had a top line leader in the horror years apart from Jimmys short tenure. Listening to Brendan Gale last night just reinforced my view. Gale is a modern, intelligent, well spoken leader with a clear vision for the Tigers. No false bravado or macho talk. As example he said, as soon as Rance said he was quitting they drew a line through him and looked to young players to fill the void.

[MyFavouriteMartian 572]

1 hour ago, Macca said:

Lets agree to disagree

I'm not trying to change your mind nor are you ever going to see it my way.

 

Watta you saying,  that it is a curse.?

[MyFavouriteMartian 572]

28 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

This is a great post and goes to the heart of the matter. Without wanting to sound like a robo-coach you need the structures and support in place to be able to foster a successful environment. We don't have a suburban heartland to draw inspiration from like the Doggies or Tigers so we need to market ourselves like a Collingwood or Hawthorn - that is ultra-professional with the best available facilities etc leaving no stone unturned to achieve success. It is the only way. Training on a park next to a freeway has to have an impact on the players even if only subconsciously. It's like, if the club isn't going to invest in us then how hard can we really be pushing ourselves?

We need to lean on our connections with both MCC, the top end of town and in political circles. That is not to say the ordinary supporters should be disenfranchised or forgotten but to create the successful environment we need the resources and influence of those who can assist.

The Melbouurne Storm is a good comparison.   They don't have any heritage to bank from,  but have created their own Identity,  and built the club with successes and disciplines. and camaraderie.

They have their home base.  And a strong identity.   They,   are not an Illegitimate son,  and the players obviously do not feel like a 2nd rate member of their base.   They 'Belong'...

[MyFavouriteMartian 572]

31 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

That's right, Norm grew up in the inner (at those times farmland!) suburbs of Northcote and Westgarth. Norm and Checker, two from outside the usual ranks of the Melbourne Establishment, were the heart and soul of the club for almost 4 decades during which we dominated the competition and won 10 flags. They put the Demon fire into the Melbourne CC/FC belly. We need to embrace the Demon, it is barely existent these days.

Now your cottoning-on Dr.

Melbourne was no standout,  until after Checker turned up.      That lineage then began...  the Demon Fire was lit.

[Sir Why You Little 34,434]

5 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

This is a great post and goes to the heart of the matter. Without wanting to sound like a robo-coach you need the structures and support in place to be able to foster a successful environment. We don't have a suburban heartland to draw inspiration from like the Doggies or Tigers so we need to market ourselves like a Collingwood or Hawthorn - that is ultra-professional with the best available facilities etc leaving no stone unturned to achieve success. It is the only way. Training on a park next to a freeway has to have an impact on the players even if only subconsciously. It's like, if the club isn't going to invest in us then how hard can we really be pushing ourselves?

We need to lean on our connections with both MCC, the top end of town and in political circles. That is not to say the ordinary supporters should be disenfranchised or forgotten but to create the successful environment we need the resources and influence of those who can assist.

Totally agree Dr. G, i don’t believe the Club has ever pushed hard enough on what we do have. 
it’s a bit like The MFC is shy since Norm left. I could be wrong, but it is certainly the impression i get. 
The Foundation Heroes needs to be expanded and used yearly..

[Supreme_Demon 3,009]

12 hours ago, george_on_the_outer said:

Yes, that is correct.  None of the existing committee would stand aside, to simply let Norm join, so it went to an election.  4 of the committee ran tickets that placed Norm last on their how-to-vote cards to protect their own positions!!

Norm finished 9th in a contest for the 8 roles, nearly 100 votes behind no. 8.  That was the final insult.  Peter Smith, his son, who was playing for the Demons at the time, left to go to Carlton as he also wanted nothing to do with the club any more. 

In " The Red Fox" he recalled"....But I suspect those blokes were thinking more about their own positions than what was good for the club.  They were also thinking that Dad would shake them up a bit too much....Maybe some of them felt it would have been a bit too much for them to handle"

 

Wow! That's a disgrace! I don't understand why the Melbourne Football Club board would be so underhanded do that to Norm Smith let alone why Melbourne members wouldn't vote for him?!

It sounds like it was Norm's last gasp to save the football club he loved. After that he gave up and went to coach the South Melbourne Football Club and give Bobby Skilton his last taste of the finals.

 

I would certainly like to know the names of those Melbourne Football Club board members at the time. Although, in the end, what's done is done and we cannot change what happened.

Not that I believe in curses but that certainly would of put salt on the wound of Norm Smith's feelings of betrayal. The final slap in the face for a club he had done so much for.

 

Thank you for letting me know about what happened. I have been meaning to read the Red Fox about Norm Smith and this gives me even more reason to do so.

 

Anyway as much as it is a bit of a play on another bemusing acronym I believe in the phrase of MMGA (Make Melbourne Great Again). I want to see at least ONE Melbourne Demons Premiership before I die and I also want to share it with my Dad who is now in his early 70s as well as all the rest of the loyal long-suffering Demons supporters out there who deserve a bit of joy and happiness in their lives. After seeing the Bulldogs and Tigers win their Premierships it has made me more determined than ever to see us have Premiership success.

 

By the way, does anyone remember the Demon Summit that we had quite a few years ago?  What was the purpose of that event? What happened to the ideas that came from it all?

 

I apologise for all the questions. I just want to know what needs to be done to not only reflect and learn from our past mistakes but also what we need to do for the Melbourne Football Club to be successful once again.

[Demon17 4,543]

On 5/17/2020 at 1:57 PM, dieter said:

Um, the Barassi Ranting Method took Carlton and North Melbourne to 2 Premierships...

A friend of mine played under Barassi at north in the 70's.

He still says now that Barassi would have him wanting to run through a brick wall if necessary for the team success.

[Craig Hutchinson 126]

The Foundation Heroes have an annual dinner attended by all players and coaches and requires a $5000 entry fee . Anyone can join .

[Grr-owl 1,075]

My concern is what all this means now. We're in virgin mental territory. We need to adjust to winning. For our older players, this could be a tough shift to pull off...