On 14/05/2019 at 21:32, Demonland said:

Our worst offender; Clayton Oliver. The Dees have retained just four of Oliver’s 45 kicks into forward 50, making him the worst kick inside 50 for the competition.

 

It's a bit of a nonsense stat...

Unfortunately our forwards move like statues and lets face it on form our forward line is the worst in the comp so it's no wonder the ball isn't retained.

We have next to no forward half pressure, Tommy Mc can't catch a cold and we don't have anyone better but let's blame the kicker.

I've seen Clayton spot up and hit targets when they move to the right spots, our forwards rarely go there.

Game plan? Forwards not up to the level?

  On 15/05/2019 at 03:25, rjay said:

It's a bit of a nonsense stat...

Unfortunately our forwards move like statues and lets face it on form our forward line is the worst in the comp so it's no wonder the ball isn't retained.

We have next to no forward half pressure, Tommy Mc can't catch a cold and we don't have anyone better but let's blame the kicker.

I've seen Clayton spot up and hit targets when they move to the right spots, our forwards rarely go there.

Game plan? Forwards not up to the level?

Spot on although i would argue a combination of poor form from forwards (not leading to right spots, not clunking marks) as well as a bit too much "no look" bombing from Clarry

I guess what I'm saying is...the game plan/style mostly ok.  Where it may have fallen down badly was a lack of speedier/skilfull players on the outside to receive from Clarry (and other inside mids) and finish better coming inside 50.

Instead Clarry and the other mids (Gus, Chunk), who arent necessarily the most skillfull, felt they needed to do it all instead of giving it off to better ball users OR we just didn't have players offering themselves up on enough occasions for the outside receive.  Up to the match against the Hawks IMO we weren't playing our best ball users in the most damaging positions and this added to our despicable inside 50 results...or lack of!

As a team we wouldn't look as bad in those numbers if the forward line had been doing their bit to a much higher standard, particularly the KPFs (one no longer playing seniors for now) AND we had fixed the outside receiver (best ball users) issue earlier than the Hawks match.

Give it another 4 rounds.... and compare our first 6 rounds ranking vs Rnds 7 to 12 and you might see a very different outcome for the team.  Clarry on the other hand would probably need to fix some of the junk disposals to see a significant change!

Edited May 15, 20195 yr by Rusty Nails

  On 15/05/2019 at 03:25, rjay said:

It's a bit of a nonsense stat...

Unfortunately our forwards move like statues and lets face it on form our forward line is the worst in the comp so it's no wonder the ball isn't retained.

We have next to no forward half pressure, Tommy Mc can't catch a cold and we don't have anyone better but let's blame the kicker.

I've seen Clayton spot up and hit targets when they move to the right spots, our forwards rarely go there.

Game plan? Forwards not up to the level?

Not often aparently!

How hard must it be for the forwards when they see him get the ball and have to gues which direction he's going to bomb it???

His kicking against GCS was woeful, particularly hideous was the i50 that grubbed 20m along the ground in the 3rd

We'd be automatically better if Clarry was banned kicking inside 50

  On 15/05/2019 at 04:09, Graeme Yeats' Mullet said:

Not often aparently!

How hard must it be for the forwards when they see him get the ball and have to gues which direction he's going to bomb it???

His kicking against GCS was woeful, particularly hideous was the i50 that grubbed 20m along the ground in the 3rd

We'd be automatically better if Clarry was banned kicking inside 50

Seems to be easy for defenders, or are they working harder?

  On 15/05/2019 at 04:11, ManDee said:

Seems to be easy for defenders, or are they working harder?

Forwards constantly sitting under high balls, the opposition defenders are loving it!!

  On 15/05/2019 at 00:55, Lucifer's Hero said:

As and aside, Harmes is pretty good at picking out targets and delivering the ball low.

So good he can do it accidentally as he did on Saturday

  On 15/05/2019 at 04:18, binman said:

So good he can do it accidentally as he did on Saturday

Hey Binman, I couldn't easily tell from the replay, but did he get pushed as he kicked/shinned it? or did the contact happen after it hit his boot? 

  On 15/05/2019 at 04:09, Graeme Yeats' Mullet said:

Not often aparently!

How hard must it be for the forwards when they see him get the ball and have to gues which direction he's going to bomb it???

His kicking against GCS was woeful, particularly hideous was the i50 that grubbed 20m along the ground in the 3rd

We'd be automatically better if Clarry was banned kicking inside 50

Weren't we complaining 12-18 months ago that Oliver didn't kick the ball often enough? Seems somewhat ironic that now he's kicking it we're not so sure we want him to.

  On 14/05/2019 at 23:40, Engorged Onion said:

I know - and we have 3 wins! Imagine how unstoppable we will be, when it is rectified

My Goodness The Stats are so damning.We should not be surprised as sadly the mid field are chocking up good stats but the real efficiency of their efforts is wasted.

Time for Plapp Chaplain and the defence coach to save their collective jobs. Get those figures to say 33/34 and the results will take care of themselves EVEN with a truckload if injuries.

Maybe this week will see this "don't care approach"  of slamming the ball on our boots and flaying a handpass in the general direction of a teammate to cease.

we will be surprised if our connection improves and wrapped with the results!

Coaches start coaching a real plan with detail care and skill and 2018 will no longer be a memory.

  On 15/05/2019 at 04:09, Graeme Yeats' Mullet said:

Not often aparently!

How hard must it be for the forwards when they see him get the ball and have to gues which direction he's going to bomb it???

His kicking against GCS was woeful, particularly hideous was the i50 that grubbed 20m along the ground in the 3rd

We'd be automatically better if Clarry was banned kicking inside 50

That's rubbish 'Graeme'...

Everyone was calling for him to kick more last year.

I've seen Clayton hit some great passes to moving forwards.

I'm not seeing forwards moving to the right spots at the moment and we seem to have a game plan to bang the ball in.

It's obviously not a great game plan.

  On 15/05/2019 at 07:31, rjay said:

That's rubbish 'Graeme'...

Everyone was calling for him to kick more last year.

I've seen Clayton hit some great passes to moving forwards.

I'm not seeing forwards moving to the right spots at the moment and we seem to have a game plan to bang the ball in.

It's obviously not a great game plan.

You seem to be absolving Clarry of blame. Clearly this is not all about our dysfunctional forwardline. Look at his kicking on the weekend. It was atrocious, as it often is if we’re going to call a spade a spade.

The guy is a jet and does have the ability to kick well, but the continual throwing it on the boot and hoping for the best has to end at some point. It’s not working.

Presumably there is a “logic” to the long bomb approach, i.e top of goal square and our forwards can prepare (mark crumb etc) accordingly..? 

While our back lines been decimated but functioned, our forward line has been woeful. 

  On 15/05/2019 at 01:05, SPC said:

One thing about Oliver and Brayshaw and Petracca, is how slow they are to get the ball onto their boot. Salem on the other hand is lightning quick from when he see's a target to when he has disposed of the ball. This is critical as well as with Oliver you can see in advance what he is doing and defenders adjust. 

Maybe Oliver needs to handball into the 50 as he has the fastest pick up / flick off in the game ?

Edited May 15, 20195 yr by John Demonic

  On 14/05/2019 at 22:40, Lucifer's Hero said:

No wonder the game looks like ping-pong played between the 50m arcs!

This highlights how bad our midfield is at kicking forward.  They all bomb it into no-man's land.  Most teams know that and play an extra defender to intercept or mark it.  An interesting stat would be the # of opp marks in our fwd 50.  I bet we would be one of the highest (badly) ranked teams.  Our fwds don't stand much of a chance. 

For Oliver, only 1 kick in every 2 games stays i50  That is an indictment on his game.  He works very hard for every possession so its such a shame that 41 of 45 are 'wasted'!  Just shows that while his stats are great his impact is less so. 

Most of Oliver's i50 kicks seem to be around the body or at right angles to the fwd 50, he doesn't even try to look so he has no idea where the ball is going.  Because they are high lobs it gives defenders too much time to get to the flight of the ball and intercept.  Time to slow down a tad and straighten up.  Then we will see a real champion. 

Simpletons can look at this and blame Oliver.  It ignores the countless times 2-3 forwards have lead to the same spot.

Oliver is a star.  Watch the Sydney game to see a guy put his body on the line for the club.

This guy doesn’t get cheap possessions wide like a lot of Melbourne ‘stars’ of the past 20 years.

Look deeper than the stat.  Yes, he can polish up his kicking, but Oliver is the least of our problems.

 

  On 15/05/2019 at 04:21, Ouch! said:

Hey Binman, I couldn't easily tell from the replay, but did he get pushed as he kicked/shinned it? or did the contact happen after it hit his boot? 

Hunty said on the Demonland podcast that he 100% shanked it. And then TMac dropped the uncontested mark

(Q:where was Collins, TMac's opponent? A: rolled the dice, sagged off TMac assuming harmes' kick would be on target and make the distance, was wrong and then doubled back and ran past Tmac who kicked the ball off the ground for the match winning point) 

Hunt said they all gave Harmsey and TMac curry

  On 15/05/2019 at 07:31, rjay said:

That's rubbish 'Graeme'...

Everyone was calling for him to kick more last year.

I've seen Clayton hit some great passes to moving forwards.

I'm not seeing forwards moving to the right spots at the moment and we seem to have a game plan to bang the ball in.

It's obviously not a great game plan.

I'm not Graeme, just his Mullet

Clarry needs to improve his kicking. It's a fact, supported by the stats out today. And granted stats may only tell part of the story... as Homer Simpson says: "people can come up with statistics to prove anything... forty percent of all people know that". I agree the forwards need to improve their system, but Oliver gets heaps of the ball the onus is on him to use it effectively.

I don't dispute we wanted Clarry to kick more... now we just want him to hit more targets too. My point, while obtuse, was simply that he'd be better kicking it to someone else laterally than bombing away inside 50 - the stats show it's not working!

  On 14/05/2019 at 21:54, Pates said:

I really feel like the players are being told to just get it in there without an actual plan.

Seriously? 

  On 15/05/2019 at 08:07, PaulRB said:

Presumably there is a “logic” to the long bomb approach, i.e top of goal square and our forwards can prepare (mark crumb etc) accordingly..? 

While our back lines been decimated but functioned, our forward line has been woeful. 

I wouldn't bet on it 

  On 15/05/2019 at 08:58, Graeme Yeats' Mullet said:

I'm not Graeme, just his Mullet

Clarry needs to improve his kicking. It's a fact, supported by the stats out today. And granted stats may only tell part of the story... as Homer Simpson says: "people can come up with statistics to prove anything... forty percent of all people know that". I agree the forwards need to improve their system, but Oliver gets heaps of the ball the onus is on him to use it effectively.

I don't dispute we wanted Clarry to kick more... now we just want him to hit more targets too. My point, while obtuse, was simply that he'd be better kicking it to someone else laterally than bombing away inside 50 - the stats show it's not working!

I dont think you can hang all of this on Clarry, he gets the ball and kicks into the forward line usually to a contest which our forwards lose more than other teams. How many marks do we take inside forward 50. Backman have a far easier job against melbourne forwards this years as opposed to last year.  We have similar numbers of players inside 50 to our opponents but our opponents win position 75% of the time, that tells you that its more than Clarry its the forwards not doing their job.

 

  On 14/05/2019 at 21:36, Fanatique Demon said:

Lové Oliver, but hé seems to kick without looking.

His handballing this year is not much more effective and he hardly looks with those either, hell. He hardly even possess the ball properly.

Getting the ball in quickly as a tactic is fine but you need both players who can take contested marks and players who can crumb and win the ball at ground level.

We have neither.

  On 15/05/2019 at 10:04, Deecisive said:

I dont think you can hang all of this on Clarry

I wasn't

I acknowledged that the forwards must improve. But it's clear Clarry's use by foot must improve also.

  On 15/05/2019 at 09:02, bing181 said:

Seriously? 

I honestly haven't seen enough to suggest otherwise, there really doesn't seem to be and discernible plan with our forward entries. Now that said TMac is woefully out of form with his marking, and presumably his leading patterns are not providing assistance to the midfield. But still there appears to be very little lowering of the eyes to spot up targets. 

  On 15/05/2019 at 07:40, P-man said:

You seem to be absolving Clarry of blame. Clearly this is not all about our dysfunctional forwardline. Look at his kicking on the weekend. It was atrocious, as it often is if we’re going to call a spade a spade.

The guy is a jet and does have the ability to kick well, but the continual throwing it on the boot and hoping for the best has to end at some point. It’s not working.

Not at all.

...but our dysfunctional forward line along with the primitive game plan we are using need to carry a fair bit of the blame.

  On 15/05/2019 at 10:24, Clint Bizkit said:

Getting the ball in quickly as a tactic is fine but you need both players who can take contested marks and players who can crumb and win the ball at ground level.

We have neither.

Yes we do - McDonald, Weideman, Preuss, Petracca are in the former group, and Spargo, Garlett, Hunt, Petracca and Melksham are in the latter group.

The ability is there, the form is not.