2018 Premiership ramifications

[Earl Hood 6,163]

Now that the Eagles have won the 2018 flag we know all other 17 clubs will be analysing their list, their game plan and just how they won on the day. The AFL is full of copycats as we know. It now seems to me that chaos footy and small defensive forwards, small running halfbacks with intercept marking backs may not be so much in vogue next year. Today’s win for the Eagles was also a victory for 2 legitimate ruckman, two key marking forwards and at least two big marking/spoiling key position backman. It’s like 1990’s footy reborn. Yes there are still running halfbacks, inside mids and small, crumbing forwards but there always were I think. 

The ramifications are I think that the value of secondary ruckman (Pruest), key position backman who can handle the gorillas  (May) has now gone up but so has Hogan’s value as a key forward to offset that for us. The WC structure wants the ball played predominately in the air and this would also help alleviate some of the AFL’s worries about congestion. 

Interesting to see how the recruiters react to the WC blueprint. 

[Bigred 502]

Spot on Mr Hood

‘Chaos’ is an oversimplifiction of course, but skilled players down the spine are critical whatever you call you game plan..

We are not far off. Maturity, some improved strength, height and marking in the back half and we will be there. 

Anything can happen, but I reckon we are 2 key players and 1 to 2 years maturity away from being in a position to winning this.

Good game today, well done Eagles. But the King is dead. Long live the King. Ie us,.

 

[Nasher 33,641]

Two ruckmen worked for West Coast because of the specifics of their personnel. Specifically:

- Vardy is a competent forward in his own right

- They’ve got two AFL elite forwards, so their ruckman in the forward line is third tall

- Neither of their rucks are that good as actual rucks, nor are they huge runners, so the load needs to be shared.

It will be interesting to see how West Coast look when NicNat returns next year. I’d expect him to be an 80% ruckman, with Vardy to have a role akin to the one Weideman played with us during those few games he played with both Hogan and TMac in. 

If we get Preuss, he would want to offer something as a forward if he wants to play seniors.

[david_neitz_is_my_dad 4,084]

I dont see why teams would copy West Coasts strategies. Richmond would have done them (pre prelim form), Our better games this year would have stacked up well today. West Coast just get to sit out west accumulate wins, get a good finals draw and make it to the big day in ease. You cant draft home ground/crowd advantages.

Edited September 29, 2018 by david_neitz_is_my_dad

[Adzman 2,154]

Would West Coast have used a dual ruck combo if Nic Nat was fit? We will never know.

WC winning was a good old fashioned best team on the day scenario. There is nothing about that list or game plan that screams "blueprint". Congratulations to them, they were just very fortunate to play us out West a week before and not today. I think we would have beaten them at the MCG today.

 

[John Demonic 5,987]

46 minutes ago, david_neitz_is_my_dad said:

I dont see why teams would copy West Coasts strategies. Richmond would have done them (pre prelim form), Our better games this year would have stacked up well today. West Coast just get to sit out west accumulate wins, get a good finals draw and make it to the big day in ease. You cant draft home ground/crowd advantages.

We havent played close to as good as both clubs today. With all due respect, that is delusional. We would have gone to water under the pressure of the eagles tall marking forwards or pies 5 goal start. We look amazing when everything is going our way, and took some big steps towards curbing the infuence of a team when it's not. But we're a year off staning up under pressure of a big game.

 

A free ride into the grand final? What a massive disservice to a club that has overcome a stacked compo towards mcg teams. Richmond pre prelim were neck and neck with pies at 3/4 time, and overran a team 2 rotations down -they also were smashed interstate all year . Had nowhere near as much unity and confidence in their system as both gf finalists with backs against wall. Level at 3/4 time, showed massive effort for both clubs to go goal for goal and to end in a small margin. But monumental to come down from 5 goals, backing the system to grind away methodically.

 

Edited September 29, 2018 by johndemonic

[Willmoy1947 4,244]

I reckon it's the Two Team Theory. One Team for the first rounds before the Bye and then if you got the players a different and better team for the rest and Finals if you are smart, good and fit enough........

[Sir Why You Little 37,394]

Both sides held one grab marks for the most part of the game. 

Was great to watch

[Diamond_Jim 12,739]

An interesting discussion to be carried on over the off season.

WCE played the possession game a la the Hawks but with better forwards.

Collingwood midfield was not up to the level it was in the first three finals.

Love to hear some considered views.

[Little Goffy 14,853]

Honestly, I'm not sure too much imitation will be inspired by this one.

Any of the four preliminary finalists could've snagged the premiership this year, and there's a lot of variety in those lists.

Still no denying the value of having confident, reliable players in key positions. West Coast's contested marking at both ends was quite something. Seven players with 2 or more contested marks, yeesh.

[Adam The God 30,668]

2 hours ago, Diamond_Jim said:

An interesting discussion to be carried on over the off season.

WCE played the possession game a la the Hawks but with better forwards.

Collingwood midfield was not up to the level it was in the first three finals.

Love to hear some considered views.

I still can't believe Hardwick didn't send someone to Sidebottom last week. Ridiculous coaching.

[Queanbeyan Demon 6,970]

3 hours ago, Diamond_Jim said:

An interesting discussion to be carried on over the off season.

WCE played the possession game a la the Hawks but with better forwards.

Collingwood midfield was not up to the level it was in the first three finals.

Love to hear some considered views.

hahahaha. Dream on DJ. 

[Queanbeyan Demon 6,970]

2 hours ago, A F said:

I still can't believe Hardwick didn't send someone to Sidebottom last week. Ridiculous coaching.

Dickwick was completely out coached. Caught napping when Big Cox went bezerk . Simpson saw to it that didn't happen again. simmo coached brilliantly I thought. 

Edited September 29, 2018 by Queanbeyan Demon
typo

[Deemania since 56 6,801]

2 hours ago, Queanbeyan Demon said:

Dickwick was completely out coached. Caught napping when Big Cox went bezerk . Simpson saw to it that didn't happen again. simmo coached brilliantly I thought. 

Simpson did coach well across the season, shoring up his KPD/KPF as an arsenal and used the season to create play familiarity and responsibility; he also maximised his team strengths - as we found out in the Prelim. The GF was nearly always going to be a proving ground for them, and the widespread mantra was '...how to beat Collingwood or Richmond...' on the day with talls, contested marking and a sustained finishing intent after the first flush - which obviously was Collingwood's attempted 'best play'. The relentless 'hard ball get' was another asset that supported their mid to final game rally. Well done, Simpson and his determined team of players. 

[Demon from Sydney 50]

8 hours ago, johndemonic said:

We havent played close to as good as both clubs today. With all due respect, that is delusional. We would have gone to water under the pressure of the eagles tall marking forwards or pies 5 goal start. We look amazing when everything is going our way, and took some big steps towards curbing the infuence of a team when it's not. But we're a year off staning up under pressure of a big game.

 

A free ride into the grand final? What a massive disservice to a club that has overcome a stacked compo towards mcg teams. Richmond pre prelim were neck and neck with pies at 3/4 time, and overran a team 2 rotations down -they also were smashed interstate all year . Had nowhere near as much unity and confidence in their system as both gf finalists with backs against wall. Level at 3/4 time, showed massive effort for both clubs to go goal for goal and to end in a small margin. But monumental to come down from 5 goals, backing the system to grind away methodically.

 

Couldnt agree more jd.

If that was us yesterday & Collingwood kicked the 1st x 5 goals it would have been all over.We would have gone to water like we did in the West last week & ended up losing by over 10 goals.Pies trounced us during the year just as WC did a few weeks ago & to me i think we are still a fair tick off the pace.Not saying we couldn't win it next year but we would need to be at our best while say the WC were off by that 10% to be a chance.

[pitmaster 3,591]

Interesting to note that 2015 onwards no grand finalist has reappeared the following year:

2015: Hawthorn - West Coast

2016: Bulldogs-Sydney,

2017: Richmond-Adelaide,

2018: West Coast-Woods.

Agree we would not have stood up under the Pies' early onslaught yesterday but we grew through this year and there's no reason to think we can't advance next year to the big one. Genuine pace through the middle with quality disposal is the missing element.

Imitation of the premiers happens but it's smarter to devise a strategy that works for your list. That's what the Dogs and Tigers did. And the Eagles.

[IvanBartul13 2,564]

The Eagles dont play fumbly defensive forward dribblers  who cant kick and refuse to take a straight line at the ball or the body.

Edited September 29, 2018 by goodoil

[Ugottobekidding 1,244]

Melbournd would have smashed the eagles at yhe MCG yesterday.

Edited September 29, 2018 by Ugottobekidding

[Straight Sets Simon 23,113]

If Simpson had a different team with different strengths he would have coached differently.

Good coaches do this.

It’s like when Melbourne brought in “run and carry” in 2007 because it was all the rage despite the fact our team was not suited to play that way.

[Lucifers Hero 40,673]

There is an interesting 'tension' between two game styles:  'possession' vs 'pressure' football. 

In the first camp is WCE, Hawks and to some extent Geelong.  The second includes (2016 Bulldogs), Rich, Pies and Demons.  The finals have shown that on any given day either style will win. 

imv it is the new rules in 2019 that will have the biggest impact on game styles:

With the 6x6x6 at centre bounces the ball will go forward very fast.  Imagine - no players behind the square and no +1 in defence.  The ball will come out so fast that defenders will be disadvantaged as their will be no time for a +1 to drop back.  

With the longer goal square when the ball is kicked in it will reach the 'fat' part of the ground, probably at its widest point.  Much harder to defend the width of the ground.  So, I can forsee Max patrolling one side of the ground and Preuss patrolling while keeping our forward structures in place ie not dragging Tom Mc or Weideman up the ground to help defend the 'fat' part.

Defending those situations, imv is what is driving our interest in Preuss and May.  

At the other end of the ground the rule changes help our fast and furious, bomb it long to forwards as initially there is no +1 to intercept.  Imagine all those i50's that won't ricochet back out again!   Most of our medium forwards (Melksham, Petracca, Fristch) are very good marks.  These factors could be why we are willing to let Jessie go. 

It will be interesting to watch how game styles evolve in 2019.  There will be a fair bit of experimenting by coaches but I think they will stick to their underlying 'possession' vs 'pressure' game styles.

Edited September 29, 2018 by Lucifer's Hero

[Queanbeyan Demon 6,970]

1 hour ago, Ugottobekidding said:

Melbournd would have smashed the eagles at yhe MCG yesterday.

Just like last week ah?

[rjay 25,404]

1 hour ago, goodoil said:

The Eagles dont play fumbly defensive forward dribblers  who cant kick and refuse to take a straight line at the ball or the body.

Liam Ryan on multiple occasions...

[george_on_the_outer 7,858]

45 minutes ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

There is an interesting 'tension' between two game styles:  'possession' vs 'pressure' football. 

In the first camp is WCE, Hawks and to some extent Geelong.  The second includes (2016 Bulldogs), Rich, Pies and Demons.  The finals have shown that on any given day either style will win. 

imv it is the new rules in 2019 that will have the biggest impact on game styles:

With the 6x6x6 at centre bounces the ball will go forward very fast.  Imagine - no players behind the square and no +1 in defence.  The ball will come out so fast that defenders will be disadvantaged as their will be no time for a +1 to drop back.  

With the longer goal square when the ball is kicked in it will reach the 'fat' part of the ground, probably at its widest point.  Much harder to defend the width of the ground.  So, I can forsee Max patrolling one side of the ground and Preuss patrolling while keeping our forward structures in place ie not dragging Tom Mc or Weideman up the ground to help defend the 'fat' part.

Defending those situations, imv is what is driving our interest in Preuss and May.  

At the other end of the ground the rule changes help our fast and furious, bomb it long to forwards as initially there is no +1 to intercept.  Imagine all those i50's that won't ricochet back out again!   Most of our medium forwards (Melksham, Petracca, Fristch) are very good marks.  These factors could be why we are willing to let Jessie go. 

It will be interesting to watch how game styles evolve in 2019.  There will be a fair bit of experimenting by coaches but I think they will stick to their underlying 'possession' vs 'pressure' game styles.

Sorry LH, but those rule changes will do nothing for what they are designed to alleviate.  

666 only happens at centre bounces.  For the rest of the match the positioning will be the same.  Wingers will sit on the defensive corner and head straight back to cover before the ball has even touched the rucks hand.

The extended goal square will only encourage kicking down the line, as it guarantees the ball further away from the opposition goal.  We already know this leads to a throw in and more congestion.

The big thing to be learned about the GF, is the value of strong marking.  There were fine examples of one grabs, which were game changing from both sides.  Darling, Kennedy, Cox, McGovern, Ryan all came up with grabs in seriously contested situations, that gave their sides game changing opportunity.    How many of our players at the moment could be classified as strong contested marks?

The other thing to be learned was the return of the tagger.  Pendelbury and Yeo were shut down but at the cost to their tags.  How many can a side afford to tag, and how many can you devote to this task?  It probably shows we have a genuine advantage in this area, because teams don't have the numbers to tag Oliver, Viney, and Brayshaw.  

[george_on_the_outer 7,858]

4 minutes ago, rjay said:

Liam Ryan on multiple occasions...

Lewis Jetta another multiple times

[Lucifers Hero 40,673]

10 minutes ago, george_on_the_outer said:

Sorry LH, but those rule changes will do nothing for what they are designed to alleviate.  

666 only happens at centre bounces.  For the rest of the match the positioning will be the same.  Wingers will sit on the defensive corner and head straight back to cover before the ball has even touched the rucks hand.

The extended goal square will only encourage kicking down the line, as it guarantees the ball further away from the opposition goal.  We already know this leads to a throw in and more congestion.

The big thing to be learned about the GF, is the value of strong marking.  There were fine examples of one grabs, which were game changing from both sides.  Darling, Kennedy, Cox, McGovern, Ryan all came up with grabs in seriously contested situations, that gave their sides game changing opportunity.    How many of our players at the moment could be classified as strong contested marks?

The other thing to be learned was the return of the tagger.  Pendelbury and Yeo were shut down but at the cost to their tags.  How many can a side afford to tag, and how many can you devote to this task?  It probably shows we have a genuine advantage in this area, because teams don't have the numbers to tag Oliver, Viney, and Brayshaw.  

Fair points. 

Given their are at least 15 centre bounces there will be a lot of 6x6x6 set ups.  I can't help but think our mooted list changes (May, Preuss, Hogan) in part relate to the impact of the new rules.

It will be interesting to watch coaching reactions to the changes.

Edited September 29, 2018 by Lucifer's Hero