Bomb it long!

[DV8 2,271]

8 minutes ago, binman said:

It would reduce pressure no doubt, particulalry near the end of quarters but i for one love the pressure and are happy where things are at atm. I really enjoy watching footy as it is now. Well Melbourne at least

I'd like to see more individuals up forward working their creative talents, rather than some sort of team drafts or chess pieces strategy.

 

thinking Daicos, Lockett, Bartlett, Baldock, JFarmer, the Ox_ 

... all these players would struggle in today's strangled footy grounds.  Never the likes of, to be seen ever again.  Property has become far too expensive for us all.

 

At great cost.

[Its Time for Another 4,085]

On 10/04/2018 at 1:42 PM, binman said:

True, however the advent of the zone defensive structures and all ground pressure has meant that it is really rare to have the option to have a free, open kick to leading forward such as the one Jones kicked to Garlett on Sat (and Jones was still in a bit of traffic) and often forwards are forced to lead to the pockets or flanks such as the kicks to Melk and Trac on Sat.   

This is exactly why I raised the option of moving the ball around laterally on the 50m fringe to open up the play and creating those options. You don't kick it laterally to contests you kick it to space and then punch holes in the zone. The good teams work their way through zones by chip kicking not kicking long to contests where it just comes back.

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

10 hours ago, La Dee-vina Comedia said:

Hibberd was an All Australian last year. I accept that he hasn't been in All Australian form so far this year but on the totality of evidence to date, it would seem that since Goodwin has been coaching him, Hibberd has not been second rate. 

Yeah. Shouldn't have included him as his best year was under Goody. 

9 hours ago, Jumping Jack Clennett said:

I think a guy by the name of Daniel Horne is on Pure Footy, and sometimes Glen Luff. These two blokes have encyclopaedic knowledge of stats, and,it seems to me, incredible understanding of football trends and tactics.

"Horney" is very ( appropriately) bullish about the Demons.

Yeah. Like I say though, I think way too often they'll go looking for stats just to have something to talk about. And if your stats sound more considered and profound year after year it makes me think maybe they're looking a little too hard. This forward pressure thing... It's just a stat. Why are they defending so well? Why is the ball getting down there so often? Who and what were the matchups in terms of height? What style of opposition play did we observe? ie did they switch often? Did they bomb it long etc...  I'm not saying it's a bad thing that we have these smaller guys that tackle and harass and compete. Obviously that's great. But I don't think it tells us we're a better defense. Or that we're a more attacking defense. I'll take a high possession redounding defense. I'm not sure one is better than the other.

Still. interesting conversation. 

[binman 41,991]

3 hours ago, It's Time said:

This is exactly why I raised the option of moving the ball around laterally on the 50m fringe to open up the play and creating those options. You don't kick it laterally to contests you kick it to space and then punch holes in the zone. The good teams work their way through zones by chip kicking not kicking long to contests where it just comes back.

I don't think that is true anymore. Richmond won the flag by getting it in to their (short) forward line  as quickly as possible, trapping it in there and failing that making it super hard for the opposition to get past the press. We are trying to the same thing.

he hawks from 5 years ago were playing the game you describe but really no team does any more. Teams now move the ball laterally behind their defensive 50 arc (as opposed to their offensive 50 metre arc) and when they get the space flood forward in a wave and try to get over the opposition' press. Which is why you see so many goals 'out the back' these days.

Edited April 11, 2018 by binman

[tiers 2,810]

The purpose of any entry into the forward line is to generate a shot at the goals. That might mean a pass to a free teammate, or a long kick to a one on one where we have a height or strength advantage, or a "chaos" ball that can be trapped in the forward line.

It does not mean a "long bomb" to a pack or a 2 or three on one in the hope that the ball will be brought to the ground and the crumbers will swoop. There might be Jeffy, Dean K, Bayley F, Tracca, Buggy, and others but they are not consistent enough or reliable enough to trap the ball. The ball often comes out as quick as it went in. Just look at the first game of the year to see the folly in this approach.

Lateral passes outside 50 look nice and resemble basketball (or European handball) but only allow the forward line to become crowded. Manic running into the forward line a la Tiges and Doggies is not our style. Time for a creative new option.

Perhaps during the ring an ring a rosy outside F50, players can lead and drag their tags outside the forward line to open up for, say, two or three dominant targets such as Jesse and Tracca. Perhaps we learn to kick longish bombs (say <40) at the goals as the main scoring opportunity. Or perhaps our crumbers can stand front and square to trap the ball and not just over the back.

I don't pretend to have the answers but, when we have 50% more entries and just squeak out a win, then something needs to be done. Over to the FD. Let's get ahead of the curve.

 

[DV8 2,271]

7 minutes ago, tiers said:

The purpose of any entry into the forward line is to generate a shot at the goals. That might mean a pass to a free teammate, or a long kick to a one on one where we have a height or strength advantage, or a "chaos" ball that can be trapped in the forward line.

It does not mean a "long bomb" to a pack or a 2 or three on one in the hope that the ball will be brought to the ground and the crumbers will swoop. There might be Jeffy, Dean K, Bayley F, Tracca, Buggy, and others but they are not consistent enough or reliable enough to trap the ball. The ball often comes out as quick as it went in. Just look at the first game of the year to see the folly in this approach.

Lateral passes outside 50 look nice and resemble basketball (or European handball) but only allow the forward line to become crowded. Manic running into the forward line a la Tiges and Doggies is not our style. Time for a creative new option.

Perhaps during the ring an ring a rosy outside F50, players can lead and drag their tags outside the forward line to open up for, say, two or three dominant targets such as Jesse and Tracca. Perhaps we learn to kick longish bombs (say <40) at the goals as the main scoring opportunity. Or perhaps our crumbers can stand front and square to trap the ball and not just over the back.

I don't pretend to have the answers but, when we have 50% more entries and just squeak out a win, then something needs to be done. Over to the FD. Let's get ahead of the curve.

 

We're not adopting a plan that we can already do. our forwardline is in as much transition as the rest of our lines.

The truth is we aren't settled in any dept just yet.

So do we play to the cattle we have currently, or do try to instill a gamestyle you want to have, even tho the current players might struggle a little with carrying it off.

 

Are we playing for 2018 alone?

 

Or are we playing to build a team that can win the premiership in all our near futures?

 

Should we change our gamestyle once our young small players have all matured,,, and only then?

[Dr. Gonzo 23,723]

On 10/04/2018 at 9:53 AM, george_on_the_outer said:

Look at who kicked our goals on the weekend....

Bugg 4, Kent, Garlett 3, Oliver 2, Hogan, Petracca, Vince, Fritsch, Lewis, Jones

12 from the small crumbers....and you can argue about the remainder. 

The fact is there are few contested marks taken in the forward line these days, simply because defences are set up to spoil.  That is where the value lies....getting hold of the ball when it hits the ground. 

So kicking it long into the forward line does 2 things. 

It puts the ball over the top and behind the press.  If you try to run it through, you will get caught ala Richmond and Dogs. 

It then creates the chances for the smalls to gather when the ball hits the ground, as it inevitably does. 

In other situation e.g. quick turnovers then a one-on-one can arise, so a directed ball is the best option.  But that doesn't happen often enough. 

 

The key is to not allow the defenders to take instant possession and get of a clean disposal. Otherwise the ball comes flying back over your head and out the back where the opposition will score.

This relies on speed to get to the contest and either make it a contested possession or pressure the opposition so they can't get off a clean possession. This is where the speed and pressure of the small/mid-forwards is important and is something that's been lacking so far as well as our mids pushing down across centre forward to block space and pressure.

The long bomb has a place but it needs to be used to our advantage for example letting our players run towards the fall of the ball instead of dropping it on their heads, putting it about 20-30m from goal not 40-50m and putting it in a position where our small forwards can close in the space if the opposition wins the footy (like the Weagles Web of 2015) or spread to create options into space if we win it.

[DV8 2,271]

17 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

The key is to not allow the defenders to take instant possession and get of a clean disposal. Otherwise the ball comes flying back over your head and out the back where the opposition will score.

This relies on speed to get to the contest and either make it a contested possession or pressure the opposition so they can't get off a clean possession. This is where the speed and pressure of the small/mid-forwards is important and is something that's been lacking so far as well as our mids pushing down across centre forward to block space and pressure.

The long bomb has a place but it needs to be used to our advantage for example letting our players run towards the fall of the ball instead of dropping it on their heads, putting it about 20-30m from goal not 40-50m and putting it in a position where our small forwards can close in the space if the opposition wins the footy (like the Weagles Web of 2015) or spread to create options into space if we win it.

The defensive press is a major blight on our game.

The long bomb is one idea to hustle the ball into f50, before 'the press' has a chance to gather numbers.

I'm all for it if it gives us back the Torp, or a Bullet 50mtr drop-punt toward space, away from any grouped defenders.

And a sprint to the ball from all directions,,, from within f50, & those outside f50.

The One tall Key Forward works in this case, and if the tall forward is lightning quick, all the better.  Accompanied by a handful of slippery small/medium forwards.

[Its Time for Another 4,085]

3 hours ago, binman said:

I don't think that is true anymore. Richmond won the flag by getting it in to their (short) forward line  as quickly as possible, trapping it in there and failing that making it super hard for the opposition to get past the press. We are trying to the same thing.

he hawks from 5 years ago were playing the game you describe but really no team does any more. Teams now move the ball laterally behind their defensive 50 arc (as opposed to their offensive 50 metre arc) and when they get the space flood forward in a wave and try to get over the opposition' press. Which is why you see so many goals 'out the back' these days.

Agree with you about teams getting the ball into their forward lines as quickly as possible. If the forward line is open this is great and we did it well at times last year.  The issue is what to do when the forward line isn't open. I live in Sydney and go to all the Swans games. They are masters at punching holes through zones with patient short kicks and looking for leads in the forward line and looking for leads in the forward line . Watched it last weekend. Also watched Hawks doing it the last two weeks. Their game plan is still very much about controlling the ball and being patient. You don't see them continually randomly bombing it into the forward line like we have been doing.  When Swans are forced to do this and even with Buddy it rarely works. They are much better at being patient and finding the holes. Lateral kicks is one suggestion there must be plenty of others other than bombing long unless we have air superiority and lots of small crumbers running to front and centre to pick up the crumbs but we haven't been doing that either.

[Skuit 9,965]

What I don't get is how often you see defenders mark the long ball uncontested. Why don't we just get our forwards to play like defenders?

[binman 41,991]

2 hours ago, Skuit said:

What I don't get is how often you see defenders mark the long ball uncontested. Why don't we just get our forwards to play like defenders?

Surely though that is usually a function of a out number?

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

55 minutes ago, binman said:

Surely though that is usually a function of a out number?

I think he was jesting.

[Engorged Onion 10,135]

3 hours ago, Skuit said:

What I don't get is how often you see defenders mark the long ball uncontested. Why don't we just get our forwards to play like defenders?

our defenders or other team defenders? - rather than marking uncontested - ours are quite skilled at the mulitpronged medusa fist,which whilst spectacular as you never quite know whats going to happen next, it is a little problematic as it leaves no-one on the ground...

[jackaub 1,402]

A huge continuing issueforthe dees is our inability to take a contested mark

I think we are close to the worst team in stats

No good bombing it long if you cannot take control of the ball

Its ok to say bring it to ground and try to win the contest

This takes numbers and real effort

Much easier to catch the ball and use your numbers to run inside 50

It a weakness that has been present for a long time, just as 4 players flying for the same ball

Now that Hogan is ranginging far and wide that is one less flying for the ball

Tom McDonald  should be allowed one out  when he gets back 

[binman 41,991]

9 hours ago, It's Time said:

Agree with you about teams getting the ball into their forward lines as quickly as possible. If the forward line is open this is great and we did it well at times last year.  The issue is what to do when the forward line isn't open. I live in Sydney and go to all the Swans games. They are masters at punching holes through zones with patient short kicks and looking for leads in the forward line and looking for leads in the forward line . Watched it last weekend. Also watched Hawks doing it the last two weeks. Their game plan is still very much about controlling the ball and being patient. You don't see them continually randomly bombing it into the forward line like we have been doing.  When Swans are forced to do this and even with Buddy it rarely works. They are much better at being patient and finding the holes. Lateral kicks is one suggestion there must be plenty of others other than bombing long unless we have air superiority and lots of small crumbers running to front and centre to pick up the crumbs but we haven't been doing that either.

Yeah you're right swans are ouliers in this regard and hawks still using precision kicking and controlling rge tempo as a strategy (but do they have the players for this?).

Interesting that swans are also the only club (not sure about hawks) who don't use a zone defence.

[La Dee-vina Comedia 16,650]

52 minutes ago, Danelska said:

our defenders or other team defenders? - rather than marking uncontested - ours are quite skilled at the mulitpronged medusa fist,which whilst spectacular as you never quite know whats going to happen next, it is a little problematic as it leaves no-one on the ground...

Beautifully descriptive.

[Tony Tea 2,804]

2 hours ago, La Dee-vina Comedia said:

Beautifully descriptive.

Possibly tautologous.

[DV8 2,271]

8 hours ago, Skuit said:

What I don't get is how often you see defenders mark the long ball uncontested. Why don't we just get our forwards to play like defenders?

That's what I've been saying, Re Frost coming back into the side, that he could play forward, on the oppo's main key defender, & spoil all high ball coming in, so our small/mediums can attack the contest...  kick a goal or lock it down.

[Engorged Onion 10,135]

1 hour ago, Tony Tea said:

Possibly tautologous.

most certainly a definite tautological statement, that reiterates itself.

[DV8 2,271]

4 hours ago, jackaub said:

A huge continuing issueforthe dees is our inability to take a contested mark

I think we are close to the worst team in stats

No good bombing it long if you cannot take control of the ball

Its ok to say bring it to ground and try to win the contest

This takes numbers and real effort

Much easier to catch the ball and use your numbers to run inside 50

It a weakness that has been present for a long time, just as 4 players flying for the same ball

Now that Hogan is ranginging far and wide that is one less flying for the ball

Tom McDonald  should be allowed one out  when he gets back 

IMO it's the midfield that we need to be controlling the airways.  If we can take aerial possession in our midfield between the arcs, and stop to take in the situation, we can then move the ball with thought going toward f50.

Not too much time, but a thinking process to get the pill into range.

 

I'm not as concerned yet about not marking as much inside 50 as I am in across the centreline.  Maybe Lever could help us in this situation?

[jackaub 1,402]

18 hours ago, DV8 said:

IMO it's the midfield that we need to be controlling the airways.  If we can take aerial possession in our midfield between the arcs, and stop to take in the situation, we can then move the ball with thought going toward f50.

Not too much time, but a thinking process to get the pill into range.

 

I'm not as concerned yet about not marking as much inside 50 as I am in across the centreline.  Maybe Lever could help us in this situation?

But you would agree that our contested marking is an issue?

We have been poor for many seasons

[DV8 2,271]

3 hours ago, jackaub said:

But you would agree that our contested marking is an issue?

We have been poor for many seasons

Yes all over the ground, its an area we put ourselves under the pump, because we do not take enough marks, particularly the midfield ball around our wings, is mostly always a live ball scenario, and so we are under pressure making decisions Re ball use, going forward.

This is a big handicap on setting up our forwards. and our conversion.

I think these are a related issue, under pressure midfield bomb t in forwards under pressure.  It transfers down the line.

 

So our poor transition, In many ways is around the issue of composure time and space between the arcs IMO.  IF we mark the ball around the centre wings, we can play on or play tempo, or go fast slow, hold the ball, etc.

[Deemania since 56 6,562]

22 hours ago, DV8 said:

That's what I've been saying, Re Frost coming back into the side, that he could play forward, on the oppo's main key defender, & spoil all high ball coming in, so our small/mediums can attack the contest...  kick a goal or lock it down.

That actually sounds like it could be effective because in those moments where it is 50/50 for a mark, or worse, the aim should always be to bring the ball to ground whilst shepherding the receivers as a big bloke should. If it is a clear mark in your favour, take it, but still have crumbers or linkage players very nearby. It ain't no good being where the ball ain't ... or losing possession of the thang. (Courtesy of the Chillingollah U15s Footy Coach, 1968.) 

[DV8 2,271]

1 hour ago, Deemania since 56 said:

That actually sounds like it could be effective because in those moments where it is 50/50 for a mark, or worse, the aim should always be to bring the ball to ground whilst shepherding the receivers as a big bloke should. If it is a clear mark in your favour, take it, but still have crumbers or linkage players very nearby. It ain't no good being where the ball ain't ... or losing possession of the thang. (Courtesy of the Chillingollah U15s Footy Coach, 1968.) 

people keep saying Frost's not a forward, so let him be led to the high balls by his opponent, Or if his opponent peels off the ball to run decoy, Frost leaves opponent and gets to drop of ball.

The object, IF he cannot win a mark uncontested,,, then he punches the ball clear of the pack, creating a Kaos-Ball inside our own 50mtrs.

We need to select for a quick nimble forward zone, with hard contestants in there. as we should have anyway.

 

We want to being playing our games, in our Half of the field.

Edited April 13, 2018 by DV8

[Its Time for Another 4,085]

On 12/04/2018 at 9:02 AM, binman said:

Yeah you're right swans are ouliers in this regard and hawks still using precision kicking and controlling rge tempo as a strategy (but do they have the players for this?).

Interesting that swans are also the only club (not sure about hawks) who don't use a zone defence.

This is really a conversation for a different topic about defences but I'm not sure that's quite right about not using a zone. You very rarely see their backmen one on one. There's nearly always a third up helping out and always other defenders around them to receive the clearing handball. They work as an incredible unit and don't really have any exceptional players they just have role players.  

Rampe at only 189cm follows in the footsteps of over a decade and a half of undersized Swans key backmen. It was RIchards before him who started as a slightly built half back flanker, before RIchards was Craig Bolton who was similar. Before Bolton was Leo Barry. It goes back to before Roosy started coaching them. They've always had a system for covering the key positions with numbers. 

The thing that really stands out about the Swans defence versus ours is that there are always a line of three defenders between the forwards and the goals no matter how far up the ground the forwards go, so on transition they are probably the fastest team to get back and cover the forwards. I noticed Hawks do the same thing.  Our defence seems to get sucked too far up the ground as they all run forward of the forwards when they are attacking and we then get opened up on transition when the ball is kicked over their heads. 

This seems to operate in reverse for our forwards who this season are rarely ahead of their backmen as they run into the forward 50. 

On 12/04/2018 at 4:50 AM, Skuit said:

What I don't get is how often you see defenders mark the long ball uncontested. Why don't we just get our forwards to play like defenders?

I think you'll find this is a product of forwards generally taking front position and bad forward 50 entry kicks coming in over their heads into the arms of defenders.