Boot Camp 2017 cancelled by Players

[Ouch! 2,266]

3 hours ago, Drunkn167 said:

Getting screamed at while sleep deprived and doing super intense physical work isn't everyone's cup of tea 

and I saw someone comment earlier that it wasn't Goodwin's fault that Salem didn't pack his pack correctly.... I'm sorry if they were sleep deprived, being screamed at and going out on a hike with bricks in their packs.... the responsibility of running the camp lies with the the club. I see that as a workplace injury. 

[Satyriconhome 10,879]

3 hours ago, daisycutter said:

hey saty, i'm sure you could/would have said exactly the same thing last pre-season

but....don't get me wrong, i do hope the players as a group are fitter now than ever before

I actually spoke to Misso as well, he has always said it takes 3 to 5 years to build a player, if they stay injury free that is

Last year some started to show the build working, this year the number has increased again, rethinks on players etc, Pedo has gone from a 100k plus big bodied forward, into a 90kg running machine, ANB has gone up a notch, Harmes is now a really solid unit etc etc

 

 

[Satyriconhome 10,879]

36 minutes ago, Ouch! said:

and I saw someone comment earlier that it wasn't Goodwin's fault that Salem didn't pack his pack correctly.... I'm sorry if they were sleep deprived, being screamed at and going out on a hike with bricks in their packs.... the responsibility of running the camp lies with the the club. I see that as a workplace injury. 

Yes it was Salem's fault, that was the whole idea of the camp, he failed under pressure, let me think, does that happen in games?

[Ron Burgundy 8,584]

7 hours ago, jnrmac said:

1. You have no evidence of this - it is pure speculation

2. This is garbage. Watts was given the clear message that he would be best finding another club.

3. Another garbage point with no basis at all in fact.

You seem to confuse what comes out in the media as what happens at the coal face of the club. The club under Peter Jackson has very clear guidelines on how to manage player commmunication. Just because some some flea in the media or on social media makes a claim or a statement doesn't make it true.

There are 1700 accredited AFL media. They are trying to earn a living and are scrapping for stories. They are largely irrelevant and i would prefer my club to manage players rather than focusing on external commentary. 

Yes, it is speculation. But my speculation here is actually based on some evidence (i.e. 14 players approaching the AFLPA without first informing the coach or, alternatively, approaching the AFLPA with the coach's blessing).

Certainly it seems to be accepted as fact that these players did approach the AFLPA. Beyond this, there is further evidence that we do not know, but to say there is no evidence is incorrect. That they approached the AFLPA at all in the circumstances is poor.

In short, I think you would be better off asserting that the conclusion I have derived cannot be supported by the evidence that is available, rather than saying there is no evidence of such matters. I have heard various things to suggest there is evidence that is at odds with your claim of 'garbage' on these matters.

Notwithstanding this, I will refrain from responding to your post in the tone you have adopted towards mine because, quite frankly, I try to not descend into pettiness with other posters. I come here for information and some discussion, not for friendships or juvenile arguments.

Anyway - following a very disappointing end to last season, I was looking for a super professional and disciplined response from the club/player group, and this is not the sort of news that I had hoped to be reading at this point in the pre-season.

 

[jnrmac 20,154]

28 minutes ago, Ron Burgundy said:

Yes, it is speculation. But my speculation here is actually based on some evidence (i.e. 14 players approaching the AFLPA without first informing the coach or, alternatively, approaching the AFLPA with the coach's blessing).

Certainly it seems to be accepted as fact that these players did approach the AFLPA. Beyond this, there is further evidence that we do not know, but to say there is no evidence is incorrect. That they approached the AFLPA at all in the circumstances is poor.

In short, I think you would be better off asserting that the conclusion I have derived cannot be supported by the evidence that is available, rather than saying there is no evidence of such matters. I have heard various things to suggest there is evidence that is at odds with your claim of 'garbage' on these matters.

Notwithstanding this, I will refrain from responding to your post in the tone you have adopted towards mine because, quite frankly, I try to not descend into pettiness with other posters. I come here for information and some discussion, not for friendships or juvenile arguments.

Anyway - following a very disappointing end to last season, I was looking for a super professional and disciplined response from the club/player group, and this is not the sort of news that I had hoped to be reading at this point in the pre-season.

 

Even if the players did approach the AFLPA - and there is no evidence they did it before going to the club - this in itself is not unusual. Maybe they were seeking information about what other clubs were doing, what was the norm, what their responsibilities were for things that are outside their playing contract or what would happen if they were injured and unable to play? 

The point is we don't know and it just doesn't make sense to listen to media speculation on it.

And in the spirit of Christmas, compliments of the season to you Ron.

[Dr. Gonzo 24,270]

5 hours ago, ProDee said:

Somehow I can't imagine a Michael Voss, Luke Hodge, or Joel Selwood citing this as an issue.  Or Jack Viney for that matter.

It takes all types, but clearly we have some delicate souls.

I wouldn't like it either. Not that I would mope and get depressed about it but I'd probably start backchatting the meathead who was yelling at me and be seen as "undisciplined".

[Dr. Gonzo 24,270]

1 hour ago, Ron Burgundy said:

Yes, it is speculation. But my speculation here is actually based on some evidence (i.e. 14 players approaching the AFLPA without first informing the coach or, alternatively, approaching the AFLPA with the coach's blessing).

"UP TO" 14 players.

[Bombay Airconditioning 6,408]

5 hours ago, sue said:

And where exactly do we know that from?    Seems to me that as usual speculation and rumour quickly become fact. 

In any case if they just went to the PA for information it seems perfectly reasonable to me that the players should gather as much information as they can before they discuss an issue with the coach if they feel the coach has made a very bad decision.   How do we know that some players didn't tentatively raise it with the coach first, saw he was fixed in his position, still thought he was wrong and felt they had to argue again more forcefully?    

When we have one well-connected poster quoting a player saying how much disruption to his physical preparation last years' camp was, I think an exception to 'always do what the coast says' could be warranted.  If a player lost that much conditioning by being out on the town instead of at a boot camp, posters here would be calling for blood. 

It is just possible the FD got it wrong and after seeing how seriously the players felt about it, the FD saw cancelling was the correct decision.  An organization that works that way is far more resilient than one where such interactions are impossible and things fall apart completely after years of pent-up frustration.

 

Apologies as I don't know how to highlight things but to answer your question....

We know this from page 3 of this thread, a post by Drunkn167 who apparently has a brother who plays for the club. 

 

[Bitter but optimistic 22,246]

8 hours ago, Satyriconhome said:

I have chap, most are lifting more metal than ever before and we have had some improvement in the 2k times

And a couple of the youngsters now have a man's body, King,  Weed

Also Mr Gawn is in exceptional nick, his running has gone to another level

You do exaggerate Saty! 

I was at training last Friday and observed them.

I have a man's body and they look nothing like me.

[dworship 3,342]

For all the angst and hand ringing this has created, I think this will tell us more about Goodwin than anybody else and so far I think he's off to a good start.

[BAMF 4,385]

 

5 hours ago, Satyriconhome said:

I actually spoke to Misso as well, he has always said it takes 3 to 5 years to build a player, if they stay injury free that is

Last year some started to show the build working, this year the number has increased again, rethinks on players etc, Pedo has gone from a 100k plus big bodied forward, into a 90kg running machine, ANB has gone up a notch, Harmes is now a really solid unit etc etc

 

 

I'm loving the photos from training at the moment. Our players are looking in great shape. A lot of them look like they have taken the next step. I have a good feeling about Harmes for some reason. We are in for a couple of really good year I think. A few players are really going to  start stepping up now that they have passed (about to pass) that 50 game mark.

[DeeZee 7,445]

I can understand the players going to the AFLPA first just to make sure they have all the correct info on their rights etc before approaching the coaches , but it still doesn’t smell great as far as not all being on the same page as a collective unit trying to achieve something great.

Hints of a lack of confidence in the coach and the failure of the club to keep things in house, just like the whole Jack Watts saga , where the way the club handled it left them wide open to the media and supporters who weren’t too happy with the way things played out.

Just not a good look.

Edited December 20, 2017 by DeeZee

[Jack Jack Tappy 112]

Yes not a good look, why is that??

[Satyriconhome 10,879]

2 hours ago, Bitter but optimistic said:

You do exaggerate Saty! 

I was at training last Friday and observed them.

I have a man's body and they look nothing like me.

Actually somebody told me you are twice the man than the rest of us

[Ethan Tremblay 30,962]

11 hours ago, Satyriconhome said:

And a couple of the youngsters now have a man's body

Edited December 20, 2017 by Ethan Tremblay

[ManDee 7,215]

13 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

"UP TO" 14 players.

I read that as no more than 14, could be one, could be none. Might as well have said , a number of players. 

[dpositive 1,672]

On 14/12/2017 at 9:58 PM, Drunkn167 said:

Whoo boy nice heated discussion going on here

Before I start telling the whole story let me say that some of you are severely underestimating just how harsh and grueling the camp from last year was

I'm not going to use names or specific numbers for privacy reasons

Now, last Monday Goody told the playing group that the camp would be happening again this year from 18th-20th before breaking for Christmas. Immediately quite a number of players where very much against this for a variety of reasons (including players from the Leadership group), so a group approached the AFLPA to ask how to handle the situation. The MFC staff caught wind of this, so Goodwin gave a presentation last Thursday explaining what they wanted to get from the camp, and explaining that this time they will be bringing a larger amount of medical staff and ensure players were well fed (apparently the food/nutrition last year wasn't the best) Even after this talk, still quite a high number of players were very unhappy about having to do the course again.

So over the weekend the Leadership group and AFLPA met with MFC Coaches/high level staff to discuss the situation, reportedly getting quite feisty at times. The club did have the official final say on the matter, and chose to call the camp off. Monday morning Goodwin gathered all the players and told them the camp was being called off due to the high number of players who raised concerns with it, and he said he wasn't angry but very disappointed because he felt they had given enough information to the players that their health and safety concerns were going to be handled appropriately. However throughout the day the players could tell Goodwin and some other coaches were indeed pretty unhappy with the playing group (when you work with people for long enough you can tell pretty clearly when they are not in the best mood) 

I've got no confirmation of this, but I would assume the three days of training next week before the Christmas break are probably going to  make up for the lack of physical and mental work lost from having cancelled the camp.

I do agree with a number of you that it is a bad look, especially when the club is in the finals drought we find ourselves in.

But I also see where the players are coming from, there is a higher chance of injuries and I sure as s*** wouldn't want to do the camp, and I was in the Army for 5 years.

 

Take from that what you will, its a pretty crappy situation overall.

Thanks Dkn

Both sides (players and coaches) understandable.

i hope the major point made and left was that the point of the exercise is to win the flag, therefore the final result agreed by players and coaches will av

chieve that.

i expect the players to now commit to that by showing endeavour and resilience in every game .

would be good to see the actual outcomes achieved  by boot camps and how those outcomes will be met without it.

Agree that concentration on footballing skills is needed.

[dpositive 1,672]

On 15/12/2017 at 7:49 AM, Umpire Please said:

Maybe we should approach ENDOTA Spa as sponsers for next season?? What a pack of soft c@$ks. I wonder how many of our players will be reported for retaliating from the sledging they will get from the opposition players. Not sure we should be calling ourselves the Demons any more.

We need to provide the players with a response.

While you were at boot camp I was concentrating on beating you. Look at the scoreboard.Of course only relevant if winning.. That's the real Challenge.

[w00dy 146]

Danny Frawley on the radio changed his tune this morning.  Said this would be a moment that galvanised the playing group and that we'd make finals. 

[Mazer Rackham 14,971]

42 minutes ago, w00dy said:

Danny Frawley on the radio changed his tune this morning.  Said this would be a moment that galvanised the playing group and that we'd make finals. 

That's exactly why people should make up their own minds in this issue. (And any other issue.)

The Frawleys of this world don't even know themselves what they think. Next week he'll be calling for deregistration of the players who went to the PA.

[Demon trucker 1,800]

8 minutes ago, Mazer Rackham said:

That's exactly why people should make up their own minds in this issue. (And any other issue.)

The Frawleys of this world don't even know themselves what they think. Next week he'll be calling for deregistration of the players who went to the PA.

Every loss we have next season this camp will be brought up by some on Demonland,  especially if we lose to anybody outside the 8 at a time.

Too many are making far too much of this, this tread will have legs all year long, and many will repeat the same opinion every time in different ways.

[Straight Sets Simon 23,113]

30 minutes ago, Mazer Rackham said:

That's exactly why people should make up their own minds in this issue. (And any other issue.)

It's why no one should listen to Danny Frawley.

[Ouch! 2,266]

20 hours ago, Satyriconhome said:

Yes it was Salem's fault, that was the whole idea of the camp, he failed under pressure, let me think, does that happen in games?

Absolutely it's his fault that the pack wasn't 'packed' correctly. His penalty was a brick to the head and a concussion. I don't think anyone would deny that he didn't pack the pack correctly.

Still the club put him in that position, the camp, the conditions, the mental and physical stress. It's still a workplace injury that they are responsible for.

[La Dee-vina Comedia 16,906]

2 minutes ago, Ouch! said:

Absolutely it's his fault that the pack wasn't 'packed' correctly. His penalty was a brick to the head and a concussion. I don't think anyone would deny that he didn't pack the pack correctly.

Still the club put him in that position, the camp, the conditions, the mental and physical stress. It's still a workplace injury that they are responsible for.

...particularly if it occurred because he was too tired to think properly caused by deliberate sleep deprivation.

[nutbean 8,838]

On 19/12/2017 at 7:27 PM, daisycutter said:

i suspect no-one on this forum has any real objective evidence that the players are in any better nick at this time than at the same time last year.

 

That's a nonsense DC - we are absolutely training the house down and are a monty to be top 4 based on what i have seen and read and i will continue to hold this belief until just after the first five minutes of the first game of the season.