Keeping things simple why don't we just trade our two big macs to North for their curly fries. 

1 hour ago, BW511 said:

Surprising that so many people want to persist with Melksham & Fritsch. They are both very vanilla and whilst they can have good days, they don’t provide genuine excitement or pressure - if we really want to get better, they should be pushed out by better options.

 

1 hour ago, DeeZee said:

Persist with Fritsch?????

He is only our most consistent  forward the last two years, and probably the best mark in our team.

He is a great young talent and I really don’t get the haters. 

Oddly enough, I agree with you both.

Despite some average goalkicking, Fritsch is a gun and forward is his spot.

But we've got to add more pressure to that forward line and Fritsch and Melksham bring nothing in that space, so one has to go. 

I was really hoping Bedford would come on this year so that we could have he and Kozzy in that role.

We need to have at least another three genuine small forwards added to the list. Obviously, they don't all play but we can't keep relying on makeshift guys in a position that is one of the hardest on the field to play.

16 minutes ago, Cheesy D. Pun said:

 

Oddly enough, I agree with you both.

Despite some average goalkicking, Fritsch is a gun and forward is his spot.

But we've got to add more pressure to that forward line and Fritsch and Melksham bring nothing in that space, so one has to go. 

I was really hoping Bedford would come on this year so that we could have he and Kozzy in that role.

We need to have at least another three genuine small forwards added to the list. Obviously, they don't all play but we can't keep relying on makeshift guys in a position that is one of the hardest on the field to play.

I wouldn’t put Melksham and Fritsch in the same boat.

Melksham was putrid this year.

Apart from some wayward kicking Fritsch who is really a medium forward had to take up the slack of the big forwards and put his hand up when basically no one else would, especially Milkshake who had a very lazy year.

I’d love Ben Brown. He had a very difficult year personally, and a change will do him good. He makes it that much harder for a defender to roll off him and go third up as he’s tall, quick and wants to lead - so you have to be brave to leave him. 

He’ll make Weed gain confidence by giving him the second best defender, and bring consistency to our smaller forwards roles. It’s an absolute no brainer on one condition - there isn’t an injury concern. If we do our due diligence and he looks good then I hope we snag him. 

39 minutes ago, Cheesy D. Pun said:

 

Oddly enough, I agree with you both.

Despite some average goalkicking, Fritsch is a gun and forward is his spot.

But we've got to add more pressure to that forward line and Fritsch and Melksham bring nothing in that space, so one has to go. 

I was really hoping Bedford would come on this year so that we could have he and Kozzy in that role.

We need to have at least another three genuine small forwards added to the list. Obviously, they don't all play but we can't keep relying on makeshift guys in a position that is one of the hardest on the field to play.

Fritsch will also improve agsin and he will get confidence if we recruit Brown.

He is a 35/40 goal forward once accuracy and strength are added to his package. And he wants to improve also which is great news,

Yes pressure is vital and Melky is on the edge if he can't change his game as Spargo or Bedford or even Narkle  if we get him are far better tacklers.

We need about 9/10 players who can rotate through inc Hunt as well and Zi would keep ANB rather  than Hannan.

I can see that my 'Fritsch in defence' thoughts are about as popular as COVID, so I'll try to give a bit more information to support it (although I may still skip doing so for COVID).

Fritsch has received Brownlow votes twice: two votes in a tight win against Carlton at half back (26 touches, behind T McDonald who kicked 6 before being injured), and two votes in a close loss to the Eagles 2 weeks later (kicking 4 as the second tall forward). He stayed forward in every game after that and we lost them all, despite him kicking goals. He kicked goals as a key forward, with Weid and TMac both missing, rather than as a small forward.

In games he has played as a forward from 2018-now, we were 13-14 with him in defence/not forward, and 16-18 with him forward. We won the game he missed this year against St Kilda in a dour defensive slog. 

There were some excellent articles in the 'Game Plan' thread and I saw this table from one of them, which showed the top 4 teams and their contribution of goals from different players. 

It shows a 'barbell' of goalkickers, where goals are mostly kicked by the talls or smalls, with few being kicked by the mediums (mostly midfieders). This makes sense, because it's so much harder to get space inside 50 in the modern game, so the goals are kicked from big marks (eg, Charlie Dixon, Tom Hawkins, Tom Lynch) or crumbing forward (eg, Robbie Gray, Brendan Parfitt, Daniel Rioli). Then have a look at ours:

We kick twice as many goals from mediums as the others, and hardly any from the talls and smalls. 4 of our top 5 goalkickers were mediums (Fritsch, Petracca, Melksham, Hunt - nobody else kicked double figures other than Weideman). Fritsch kicked 22 from 16 games as our leading goalkicker, so it's clear that what we're doing isn't working. Our best wins were when we lost the inside 50 count because we could kick goals in transition (where mediums thrive) but couldn't kick goals when teams were set against us (where the tall/small setup is better).

We can solve our tall issues because we have some talented players like Jackson, Weid and Petty (and possibly Brown). But Fritsch doesn't help our small forward problems because he isn't a small forward, but instead he'd be a fourth tall forward! He has shown promise as a smooth moving and flexible defender who can intercept and provide drive. I think that's the role he best serves the team in.

 

Edited October 16, 20204 yr by Axis of Bob
Wrong graph!! (Thanks Polly)

3 minutes ago, Axis of Bob said:

I can see that my 'Fritsch in defence' thoughts are about as popular as COVID, so I'll try to give a bit more information to support it (although I may still skip doing so for COVID).

Fritsch has received Brownlow votes twice: two votes in a tight win against Carlton at half back (26 touches, behind T McDonald who kicked 6 before being injured), and two votes in a close loss to the Eagles 2 weeks later (kicking 4 as the second tall forward). He stayed forward in every game after that and we lost them all, despite him kicking goals. He kicked goals as a key forward, with Weid and TMac both missing, rather than as a small forward.

In games he has played as a forward from 2018-now, we were 13-14 with him in defence/not forward, and 16-18 with him forward. We won the game he missed this year against St Kilda in a dour defensive slog. 

There were some excellent articles in the 'Game Plan' thread and I saw this table from one of them, which showed the top 4 teams and their contribution of goals from different players. 

It shows a 'barbell' of goalkickers, where goals are mostly kicked by the talls or smalls, with few being kicked by the mediums (mostly midfieders). This makes sense, because it's so much harder to get space inside 50 in the modern game, so the goals are kicked from big marks (eg, Charlie Dixon, Tom Hawkins, Tom Lynch) or crumbing forward (eg, Robbie Gray, Brendan Parfitt, Daniel Rioli). Then have a look at ours:

We kick twice as many goals from mediums as the others, and hardly any from the talls and smalls. 4 of our top 5 goalkickers were mediums (Fritsch, Petracca, Melksham, Hunt - nobody else kicked double figures other than Weideman). Fritsch kicked 22 from 16 games as our leading goalkicker, so it's clear that what we're doing isn't working. Our best wins were when we lost the inside 50 count because we could kick goals in transition (where mediums thrive) but couldn't kick goals when teams were set against us (where the tall/small setup is better).

We can solve our tall issues because we have some talented players like Jackson, Weid and Petty (and possibly Brown). But Fritsch doesn't help our small forward problems because he isn't a small forward, but instead he'd be a fourth tall forward! He has shown promise as a smooth moving and flexible defender who can intercept and provide drive. I think that's the role he best serves the team in.

 

Issue I'd have is you're data is heavily skewed by the players with Dixon, Hawkins, Lynch, Cameron providing their clubs with outstanding tall/small options and returns on them, in the past 2 years we're simply not had the tall (and small) talent. An area I think we're trying to address with Kozzie, and Jackson, with maybe Brown... going forward. Losing Hogan hurt.

11 hours ago, DubDee said:

in fairness to Bailey, he is just playing where the coach puts him. if our tall fwds performed, I reckon he would have been happy to play HF or take the 3rd defender 

his delivery inside 50 is arguably the best in the side so I reckon he will excel in that role

He doesn't put any sort of defensive pressure on his opponents.

11 hours ago, WERRIDEE said:

Our 7th forward will be Hunt hopefully not Spargo.

I'm sure Brown and Weid can work together if not competition for spots is a good thing. Fritsch is a flanker and Jackson plays like a ruck rover so they are different players. Obviously Pickett will have to do a lot of the defensive work but we have options to help him in Hunt and Spargo. I say bring Brown to the club I would be rapt.

If Spargo gets a game at all next year we will not  have not improved one miniscule!

1 hour ago, DeeZee said:

I wouldn’t put Melksham and Fritsch in the same boat.

Melksham was putrid this year.

Apart from some wayward kicking Fritsch who is really a medium forward had to take up the slack of the big forwards and put his hand up when basically no one else would, especially Milkshake who had a very lazy year.

Just on Melksham.The coach made him Captain for one game. You are correct and why how he continued to get a game is one element of Goodwin playing clear favourites!

51 minutes ago, Axis of Bob said:

I can see that my 'Fritsch in defence' thoughts are about as popular as COVID, so I'll try to give a bit more information to support it (although I may still skip doing so for COVID).

Fritsch has received Brownlow votes twice: two votes in a tight win against Carlton at half back (26 touches, behind T McDonald who kicked 6 before being injured), and two votes in a close loss to the Eagles 2 weeks later (kicking 4 as the second tall forward). He stayed forward in every game after that and we lost them all, despite him kicking goals. He kicked goals as a key forward, with Weid and TMac both missing, rather than as a small forward.

In games he has played as a forward from 2018-now, we were 13-14 with him in defence/not forward, and 16-18 with him forward. We won the game he missed this year against St Kilda in a dour defensive slog. 

There were some excellent articles in the 'Game Plan' thread and I saw this table from one of them, which showed the top 4 teams and their contribution of goals from different players. 

It shows a 'barbell' of goalkickers, where goals are mostly kicked by the talls or smalls, with few being kicked by the mediums (mostly midfieders). This makes sense, because it's so much harder to get space inside 50 in the modern game, so the goals are kicked from big marks (eg, Charlie Dixon, Tom Hawkins, Tom Lynch) or crumbing forward (eg, Robbie Gray, Brendan Parfitt, Daniel Rioli). Then have a look at ours:

We kick twice as many goals from mediums as the others, and hardly any from the talls and smalls. 4 of our top 5 goalkickers were mediums (Fritsch, Petracca, Melksham, Hunt - nobody else kicked double figures other than Weideman). Fritsch kicked 22 from 16 games as our leading goalkicker, so it's clear that what we're doing isn't working. Our best wins were when we lost the inside 50 count because we could kick goals in transition (where mediums thrive) but couldn't kick goals when teams were set against us (where the tall/small setup is better).

We can solve our tall issues because we have some talented players like Jackson, Weid and Petty (and possibly Brown). But Fritsch doesn't help our small forward problems because he isn't a small forward, but instead he'd be a fourth tall forward! He has shown promise as a smooth moving and flexible defender who can intercept and provide drive. I think that's the role he best serves the team in.

 

That's great input @Axis of Bob - just an observation - it looks like the top graph is goals CONCEDED not scored by those teams, if so for example the Port Adelaide tall data is not indicative of Dixon, it's indicative of their undersized defence.

Edited October 16, 20204 yr by Pollyanna

3 hours ago, DeeZee said:

Persist with Fritsch?????

He is only our most consistent  forward the last two years, and probably the best mark in our team.

He is a great young talent and I really don’t get the haters. 

Understand this view, but he’s kicked about 40 goals over the past 2 seasons - it’s great that he’s done it, but I’m happy to squeeze him out in the hope that Trac/Jacko can kick his goals and Brown and Weid can pile them on as well.

It’s not so much about Fritsch himself, more about how he doesn’t fit in the lineup I would prefer - which was outlined in my post

 

7 minutes ago, Pollyanna said:

That's great input @Axis of Bob - just an observation - it looks like the top graph is goals CONCEDED not scored by those teams, if so for example the Port Adelaide tall data is not indicative of Dixon, it's indicative of their undersized defense.

Yikes! I'd better have another look! ?

1 minute ago, Axis of Bob said:

Yikes! I'd better have another look! ?

I don't think it really changes your good argument

10 minutes ago, Pollyanna said:

That's great input @Axis of Bob - just an observation - it looks like the top graph is goals CONCEDED not scored by those teams, if so for example the Port Adelaide tall data is not indicative of Dixon, it's indicative of their undersized defense.

Fixed.

11 hours ago, Grr-owl said:

I’ve been a fan of Hunt, but somehow I get the feeling he upsets the balance of the team. I reckon it’s his personality. His priorities, as suggested at 3qtr time with his liaison with Trac’s nether regions, at a time when his mind should have been on other things, don’t seem to be quite right.

u read the media too much, have u ever been a part of a football club, these boys are best mates they made a joke together move along, happens everywhere and defines absolutely no one as a person or a footballer and is in no way related to what they dish up between the sirens

 

12 hours ago, Cheesy D. Pun said:

Yep. Don't mind it, at all.

I don't know if any of those potential targets are the answer, but we've got to try something in this space. 

When things go wrong, our focus seems to be on how many talls we have. I think the key is minimising our medium forwards.

You can have three tall forwards, but then you've got to surround them with genuine smalls. Too many times, we'd have Hannan, Melksham and Fritsch in the same forward line, then blame it on the talls when it doesn't work.

Also, If you have more talls and more crumbers, your strategy looks better. The extra tall forces at least one intercept player to play a man and the way you enter becomes a lot less significant.

You can lower your eyes because without the extra zoning defender, there's space to lead into but you can also bomb the ball in, get a contest and bring the little guys in.

This is where I think we too often blame the kicker. If your structure doesn't keep the defence honest, your asking far too much of the bloke with the ball.

Fingers crossed, we can get some solid talent into the forward line over the off-season. 

Good post. The bolded bit I think is worth considering in more depth. On game day we all get frustrated when our mids don't lower their eyes and kick to the pocket or to some other rubbish option. But there must surely be reasons why Fritsch consistently leads to the pocket (e.g. either he knows he can't get space anywhere else).

The lack of good talls means that good sides (who we keep losing too), who have good defences, can zone off and focus on the few threats we have in the forward line. Our consistent use of B/C-grade medium forwards doesn't cut it.

 

16 minutes ago, Turner said:

u read the media too much, have u ever been a part of a football club, these boys are best mates they made a joke together move along, happens everywhere and defines absolutely no one as a person or a footballer and is in no way related to what they dish up between the sirens

 

Have you ever been on national television setting role model behaviour for young men?

16 minutes ago, Pollyanna said:

Have you ever been on national television setting role model behaviour for young men?

There are a lot of worse things that go on as model behaviour.  Eg. gloating and mocking over an opponent when you get the better of him, and well, Tom Lynch.

1 hour ago, picket fence said:

Just on Melksham.The coach made him Captain for one game. You are correct and why how he continued to get a game is one element of Goodwin playing clear favourites!

Couldn’t agree more picket in Goodwin playing favs and this was evidence of this. 
 

I really fear for our club in retaining players and how we will go next season with goody in charge. I am not looking forward to much at all next season and can only hope Yze has a positive impact on goody. God help us if he doesn’t. 

Edited October 16, 20204 yr by DemonOX

1 hour ago, picket fence said:

If Spargo gets a game at all next year we will not  have not improved one miniscule!

Like a dog with a bone...

Fritsch is a forward for me and a natural one at that.

If only he could kick straight.

He had within 8-10 shots at goal for the year of Dixon, Kennedy and Lynch.  And he played one less game than all of them.

It's no stretch to say he should be kicking between 40-50 goals per year.  That ability is too valuable to be wasted behind the ball where it's far easier to play.

 

Edited October 16, 20204 yr by Hannibal Inc.

Ben Brown could not give a stuff about MFC. Play for pay. Buyer beware.

17 minutes ago, DemonOX said:

Couldn’t agree more picket in Goodwin playing favs and this was evidence of this. 
 

I really fear for our club in retaining players and how we will go next season with goody in charge. I am not looking forward to much at all next season and can only hope Yze has a positive impact on goody. God help us if he doesn’t. 

Well if he doesn't, we face a change of senior coach, and the potential of losing key players. 

i've mentioned a few times i would have pulled the trigger, too much on the line to be worrying about the financial stuff, need a coach we have confidence in.

46 minutes ago, Pollyanna said:

Have you ever been on national television setting role model behaviour for young men?

yet no one woulda seen it noticed it or anything if dingbats with a voice/platform didn't make a scene out of it to keep themselves relevant and create some kinda story from it