Post Match Discussion - Round 18

[bandicoot 1,395]

9 hours ago, Deestroy All said:

40 mins in, [censored] all about us on 360. All Richmond, Collingwood and Toby Slugger. 

They will usually dedicate Tuesday's to talk about Melbourne as that's when Lewis is on. Robbo and whatley are big fans of how MFC plays

[Pennant St Dee 13,118]

Can someone please tell me what weapons AA backman Daniel Talia has 

[Dr. Gonzo 24,197]

11 hours ago, Deestroy All said:

40 mins in, [censored] all about us on 360. All Richmond, Collingwood and Toby Slugger. 

Nothing about us on 360 except for the last minute, On the Couch or Footy Classified bar a brief mention. That's ok we just keep going under the radar.

Thank God I tape these shows while I watch Twin Peaks and then can fast forward through them.

[Lucifers Hero 39,612]

AFL Team of the Weehttp://www.afl.com.au/news/2017-07-25/team-of-the-week-r18-did-we-get-it-right

Hibberd on the team and Viney on the bench.  Well done guys!

What I especially liked was that Viney was the 'fan choice' and won out over Cotchin: "Instrumental in helping set up victory in the opening quarter and beat Richmond's Trent Cotchin with 59 per cent of the Twitter fan vote".

Cotchin is faux tough with all his sniper punches.  Jack makes players 'cry'.  And, he is a far better player.

A small victory for Jack to get a spot over Cotchin but in my book any victory over Richmond is a good victory!!

[JTR 2,846]

14 hours ago, Demon77 said:

There's a lot of pages to scroll through and apologies if it's been mentioned already but that was our best 1st quarter of the season.

4 goals 4 behinds. 

Wow.

You would think that if we are going to make a strong case for September action we'll need to get a few more early goals on the board than that.

[Dee Zephyr 19,267]

1 hour ago, JTR said:

You would think that if we are going to make a strong case for September action we'll need to get a few more early goals on the board than that.

It would be nice to see a first quarter blitz by us at some stage but at the same time it's a sign how far we have come as a team to still be a winning chance in most games we have played this season.

My main concern this week is the wind that usually blows towards the right of screen goals down at Blundstone. I don't want to be 6-7 goals down by quarter time if we are against the wind.

[leave it to deever 17,511]

17 hours ago, Skuit said:

I don't normally do this crap - write angry letters to agencies and accuse umpires of bias. I had even considered wasting the rest of my day putting together a video package to send to the media. The guy has sent me bonkers.

But then he paid a couple important dodgy ones our way in the final quarter. What the hell is going on? Is he just a terrible umpire, coincidentally terrible against us? Or did he get a tap at 3qtr-time from his mates? See - bonkers.

 

While I agree 100% with your comments you need to be careful not to turn into Grandpa Simpson.

 

Edited July 25, 2017 by leave it to deever

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

3 hours ago, Pennant St Dee said:

Can someone please tell me what weapons AA backman Daniel Talia has 

His weapon, (like Jetta) is that he's super strong in contests and rarely gets beaten. 

Which is why he is an AA key defender.

What a silly question.

[Wadda We Sing 10,685]

On 7/24/2017 at 9:26 AM, leave it to deever said:

Great post ...especially comments about Jetta. He works tirelessly and so consistently yet never seems to get much love. He reads the play so well and rarely gets beaten especially one on one. Can still see him from a couple of weeks ago popping up like a cork after going down (near Frost in the last mins) to save the day.

 I would argue that you forget to mention Milkshake's coming of age for MFC.

Thanks. Your quite right i did, although i thought others had that covered already. He was pretty good wasnt he. Kicked 3 in the 2nd half and our equal main goalkicker. Has backed up the selectors persistence with him. Seems to play that offbeat forward role and doesnt cop a lot of defenders. It does indeed look like hes coming of age.

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

10 hours ago, binman said:

Just watched this video and thought it had a good example of the point i'm making above:

Not sure how to do a gif but freeze this video at exactly 5:31. This is a really good example of my point about their diamond zone set up,  players not standing key forwards (or indeed hardly any forwards) and instead running to the contest to spoil.

It's a stoppage so everyone has time to get in position for Wines' kick. The obvious target is their key forward Dixon. Despite this there is not one dees players in touching distance of him. In fact of the nine defenders inside the 50 metre arc, only 2 are right next to a Port player (note they only have 7 forwards in the arc). Omac is set up way behind both Dixon and another Port player. Frost is in front, Jetts and Hunt are to the side, with Hibberd not far away also guarding space.

When you roll the tape (so to speak) you will see that Wines does in fact kick to Dixon (with the zone set up making it hard for anyone to lead into space, with maxy getting back hard to fill the hole in front). Omac comes from a long way back (wheres' the block?) and jetts comes from the side to both effect the spoil. Other defenders then come to the contest, fight for the ball, win it and with out number try to work it it out, initially by hand (backwards and towards the Port goal square, which used to be no no - hit the boundary line!), ending with Hibberd who tries to clear the 50 but mishit it. 

Now of course they don't always set up like this and there will be times they will play the old school man on man on the KPFs that Dunn loves to play but it is instructive they don't here, and didn't all day, against one of the best contested marks in the league in Dixon. And it worked a treat. he was ineffectual really and the zone really frustrated their attempts to bring the ball in to their forward line, keeping in mind they are one of the highest scoring teams in the AFL. In the end they had to use Boak to run though the corridor and inside the 50 metre arc to generate goals scoring chances. Which worked but took him away from getting high possession numbers. 

The zone also allows us to attack from the back half, through using free men, chains of handballs and wave running which when on we do so well. Great to watch. 

 

Do you consider within 10 metres a long way back do you?

I guess these are just many of the things we see so differently. The spoil you refer to made by Oscar in that situation is an elementary 'hand on the ball' at this level Binman. He had all the time in the world to intercept and he did. Although he hardly got a fist on it. He made a bare minimum spoil with the help of Jetta who would have to be 20 cm shorter than Dixon and was standing next to him. If anything, Jetta's effort from his standpoint in that situation was the more impressive.

I mean, in an ideal situation you'd want the tall key defender (Oscar in this case), who has the space and time to really get a solid fist on it. That would be considered top-line defending. He got a hand in there though, which was what was required.

Applying enormous defensive pressure through the midfield is conducive to an optimal zone defence system. And on Saturday, our defensive pressure through the midfield was peaking and was the number one reason why our zone worked so well and we were able to keep players like Dixon under control. Our enormous midfield pressure affected their ball-use which therefore meant their entries inside 50 weren't quality and were easy to defend under our system yet Oscar still managed to make the elementary look very difficult at times.

Edited July 25, 2017 by stevethemanjordan

[Pennant St Dee 13,118]

1 hour ago, stevethemanjordan said:

His weapon, (like Jetta) is that he's super strong in contests and rarely gets beaten. 

Which is why he is an AA key defender.

What a silly question.

How is it silly Talia rarely gets beaten ffs  Oscar rarely gets beaten and has played 100+ games less. That is doing your job.

Rance rarely gets in a one on one contest so rarely gets beaten. his weapon is rebounding as the loose defender

Oscar gets the number 1 forward every week. Talia developed alongside Rutten

Jetta wow I love him but do you need reminding of how long he took to develop 

Don't think i haven't noticed you didn't respond to my quote regarding you criticising posters critiquing a player based on isolated kicks is no different to your harsh marking on Omac based on some spoils to the centre. They will all be addressed with greater experience.

There's no point discussing him with you. It's a matter of saying I was right hell never be a Lever.

Edited July 25, 2017 by Pennant St Dee

[Pennant St Dee 13,118]

20 minutes ago, stevethemanjordan said:

Do you consider within 10 metres a long way back do you?

I guess these are just many of the things we see so differently. The spoil you refer to made by Oscar in that situation is an elementary 'hand on the ball' at this level Binman. He had all the time in the world to intercept and he did. Although he hardly got a fist on it. He made a bare minimum spoil with the help of Jetta who would have to be 20 cm shorter than Dixon and was standing next to him. If anything, Jetta's effort from his standpoint in that situation was the more impressive.

I mean, in an ideal situation you'd want the tall key defender (Oscar in this case), who has the space and time to really get a solid fist on it. That would be considered top-line defending. He got a hand in there though, which was what was required.

Applying enormous defensive pressure through the midfield is conducive to an optimal zone defence system. And on Saturday, our defensive pressure through the midfield was peaking and was the number one reason why our zone worked so well and we were able to keep players like Dixon under control. 

 

1 minute ago, Pennant St Dee said:

 

There's no point discussing him with you. It's a matter of saying I was right hell never be a Lever.

I rest my case

[binman 42,691]

42 minutes ago, stevethemanjordan said:

Do you consider within 10 metres a long way back do you?

I guess these are just many of the things we see so differently. The spoil you refer to made by Oscar in that situation is an elementary 'hand on the ball' at this level Binman. He had all the time in the world to intercept and he did. Although he hardly got a fist on it. He made a bare minimum spoil with the help of Jetta who would have to be 20 cm shorter than Dixon and was standing next to him. If anything, Jetta's effort from his standpoint in that situation was the more impressive.

I mean, in an ideal situation you'd want the tall key defender (Oscar in this case), who has the space and time to really get a solid fist on it. That would be considered top-line defending. He got a hand in there though, which was what was required.

Applying enormous defensive pressure through the midfield is conducive to an optimal zone defence system. And on Saturday, our defensive pressure through the midfield was peaking and was the number one reason why our zone worked so well and we were able to keep players like Dixon under control. 

Steve, you simply don't get it. I wasn't making a comment about omac i was making a comment about the zone and Omac just happened to be featured in the example i used (note: I'm done defending omac. You have your view, which is fine. I don't share that view. but we are not going to come together on it so lets leave it)

10 metres back is of course  long way back in a defensive set up. Look at the shot at 5:31. No one is close to Dixon at all. Unthinkable in times gone past and still for some who have not got up to speed with modern football - like the expert commentators who are to man ex footballers from another era who when a spoil is missed say 'they just had to go body in body - you can't give a player like (insert power forward) THAT MUCH SPACE'.

In the good old days there was no zone and defenders went man on man - literally touching their opposing players at all times, particularly those trusted with manning up the big forwards like Dixon. Dunn was/is terrific at this as it plays to his strengths - physical strength, good use of his body etc etc. But he cannot play the zone defence, which is why we traded him.

The zone requires a different skill set, eg knowing where to set up, how far you can be from a KPF and still get to the contest if required, hitting a moving ball in flight whilst running to a contest (as opposed to locking arms with an opponent and waiting for the ball to land on your head, which is much easier, particularly on day such as Saturday where the swirling wind was moving the ball around a lot) and having complete synergy with your teammates. 

Most clubs play a zone defence these days, though there are degrees, with some mixing man on man and a zone (which is sometimes as simple as having spare men in space). The Pies are a good example of the latter, which is why is why Dunn (and Howe for that matter) has a role. The dees on the other hand usually employ a much more aggressive and pure zone with very few direct man on man match ups - probably the most aggressive zone in the AFL.

Of course applying enormous 'defensive pressure through the midfield is conducive to an optimal zone defence system'. The reverse is also true, as we saw in Darwin. Poor mid field pressure exposes zone defences.

But to say the midfíeld pressure  was 'the number one reason why our zone worked so well and we were able to keep players like Dixon under control' is just wrong and sells the back six way short. The number one reason our zone worked so well and has for much of the last 10 weeks is that the back six, as Jnrmac and others have pointed out, is working so brilliantly together and all, including Omac, are doing their jobs so well. They have won us games because their zone has held up despite poor midfield defensive pressure. 

I have to say i really think your clear bias against OMac is adversely impacting your analysis.

And by the by you said you would give an involvement by involvement review of his game on Saturday. I look forward to reading it. 

 

Edited July 25, 2017 by binman

[jnrmac 20,055]

2 hours ago, binman said:

Steve, you simply don't get it. I wasn't making a comment about omac i was making a comment about the zone and Omac just happened to be featured in the example i used (note: I'm done defending omac. You have your view, which is fine. I don't share that view. but we are not going to come together on it so lets leave it)

10 metres back is of course  long way back in a defensive set up. Look at the shot at 5:31. No one is close to Dixon at all. Unthinkable in times gone past and still for some who have not got up to speed with modern football - like the expert commentators who are to man ex footballers from another era who when a spoil is missed say 'they just had to go body in body - you can't give a player like (insert power forward) THAT MUCH SPACE'.

In the good old days there was no zone and defenders went man on man - literally touching their opposing players at all times, particularly those trusted with manning up the big forwards like Dixon. Dunn was/is terrific at this as it plays to his strengths - physical strength, good use of his body etc etc. But he cannot play the zone defence, which is why we traded him.

The zone requires a different skill set, eg knowing where to set up, how far you can be from a KPF and still get to the contest if required, hitting a moving ball in flight whilst running to a contest (as opposed to locking arms with an opponent and waiting for the ball to land on your head, which is much easier, particularly on day such as Saturday where the swirling wind was moving the ball around a lot) and having complete synergy with your teammates. 

Most clubs play a zone defence these days, though there are degrees, with some mixing man on man and a zone (which is sometimes as simple as having spare men in space). The Pies are a good example of the latter, which is why is why Dunn (and Howe for that matter) has a role. The dees on the other hand usually employ a much more aggressive and pure zone with very few direct man on man match ups - probably the most aggressive zone in the AFL.

Of course applying enormous 'defensive pressure through the midfield is conducive to an optimal zone defence system'. The reverse is also true, as we saw in Darwin. Poor mid field pressure exposes zone defences.

But to say the midfíeld pressure  was 'the number one reason why our zone worked so well and we were able to keep players like Dixon under control' is just wrong and sells the back six way short. The number one reason our zone worked so well and has for much of the last 10 weeks is that the back six, as Jnrmac and others have pointed out, is working so brilliantly together and all, including Omac, are doing their jobs so well. They have won us games because their zone has held up despite poor midfield defensive pressure. 

I have to say i really think your clear bias against OMac is adversely impacting your analysis.

And by the by you said you would give an involvement by involvement review of his game on Saturday. I look forward to reading it. 

 

I wouldn't be using this example of OMac to say how well he is going. I actually think this bit of play is quite pathetic. He has a long, pretty much unimpeded, run at the ball and gets a slight touch on it. No solid punch. No body on body. No physicality whatsoever and then he somewhat lamely backs out of the contest. He does keep his feet which is good.

Jetta does way more.

Other key backs would impact the contest much more. This is why OMac gets beaten on one on ones so often against more physical players. His lack of urgency, physicality and solid contact is infuriating - just like the example in the first 5mins of the 1st qtr.

And when he did get a solid punch he twice hit to dangerous spots.

He is a massive work in progress and a long way from being a reliable key defender.

 

[ManDee 7,126]

I believe the objective of a defender is to stop forwards getting possession, secondly if they do gain possession make sure they are under pressure for disposal or that the disposal be in a less favorable position.

No body contact is required for the above.

My son is a defender and quite strong, he loves body contact and rarely loses one on one contests, when he plays a stronger opponent (very rarely) he avoids body contact until the very last instant and it involves impact. O mac understands his weakness and plays to his strengths. He will be a beauty in time.

[binman 42,691]

37 minutes ago, jnrmac said:

I wouldn't be using this example of OMac to say how well he is going.

Good thing i wasn't. I never once even suggested it as an example of 'how well he is going' or even that it was a good effort to spoil. I thought i made that clear in my response to STMJ, who also suggested i was pumping up his tyres when i said in the post you quote above:

'I wasn't making a comment about omac i was making a comment about the zone and Omac just happened to be featured in the example i used'

Do people have a comprehension problem? 

Anyway, this is my very last comment about OMac. I find it remarkable how much frustration a young fella in only his second season can cause some fans of the club he plays for. Particularly given he is holding down a critical spot (and by doing so freeing up TMac to play forward) in a side pushing for top 4 at the pointy end of the season. I mean he is obviously a reliable defender or else the club would hardly be playing him. After all they do have a vested interest in winning and are hardly likely to carry an unreliable defender for shits and giggles.

It's not as if they don't have other options, the obvious one being Tmac going back and Pederson playing forward. And again does anyone, even his harshest critics really, i mean really, believe he will dropped before the end of the season? No? Of course not.

Anyway different strokes for different folks i guess. Carry on 

 

Edited July 25, 2017 by binman

[jnrmac 20,055]

1 hour ago, binman said:

Good thing i wasn't. I never once even suggested it as an example of 'how well he is going' or even that it was a good effort to spoil. I thought i made that clear in my response to STMJ, who also suggested i was pumping up his tyres when i said in the post you quote above:

'I wasn't making a comment about omac i was making a comment about the zone and Omac just happened to be featured in the example i used'

Fair enough..

[Lil_red_fire_engine 11,119]

11 hours ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

AFL Team of the Weehttp://www.afl.com.au/news/2017-07-25/team-of-the-week-r18-did-we-get-it-right

Hibberd on the team and Viney on the bench.  Well done guys!

What I especially liked was that Viney was the 'fan choice' and won out over Cotchin: "Instrumental in helping set up victory in the opening quarter and beat Richmond's Trent Cotchin with 59 per cent of the Twitter fan vote".

Cotchin is faux tough with all his sniper punches.  Jack makes players 'cry'.  And, he is a far better player.

A small victory for Jack to get a spot over Cotchin but in my book any victory over Richmond is a good victory!!

No Jetta in the team of the week and Gray gets in after Jetta pants'd him forward and he was forced to get cheap one-twos as a mid in the second half. The team of the week is so driven by looking at the stats not the game it is a bit of a joke.

[Dante 2,739]

On 24/07/2017 at 2:48 PM, jnrmac said:

IN the same passage of play he beat Robbie Gray in a one on one and then took on Dixon.

Interestingly, if you look at the initial part of the play, Gray has his arm around Nev's  waist and if the positions were reversed and Gray was in front he would have been paid a free. It's amazing how forwards, especially high profile ones, are protected and backmen get nothing. 

[old dee 23,782]

8 minutes ago, Dante said:

Interestingly, if you look at the initial part of the play, Gray has his arm around Nev's  waist and if the positions were reversed and Gray was in front he would have been paid a free. It's amazing how forwards, especially high profile ones, are protected and backmen get nothing. 

When was the last time you saw someone get a free for in the back. The ball carrier goes to ground and 2-3 players just jump on top of him. 90% of them should be in the back. But the ump stands there trying to decide if the player with the ball is holding it too long.

[Deestroy All 14,262]

11 minutes ago, old dee said:

When was the last time you saw someone get a free for in the back. The ball carrier goes to ground and 2-3 players just jump on top of him. 90% of them should be in the back. But the ump stands there trying to decide if the player with the ball is holding it too long.

Some [censored] put a saddle on Gawn and rode him for 8 seconds, most blatant in the back free on the ground free I've seen... play on. 

Also when Jetta was smashed from behind in the last quarter marking contest, no contact with the ball... play on.

Simply baffling umpiring last week. 

[Dante 2,739]

18 minutes ago, old dee said:

When was the last time you saw someone get a free for in the back. The ball carrier goes to ground and 2-3 players just jump on top of him. 90% of them should be in the back. But the ump stands there trying to decide if the player with the ball is holding it too long.

I mentioned this to someone at the game the other night, there were so many times when in the back should have been paid but wasn't. When you see some of the twiggy touchwood frees paid for incidental contact to the shoulder, yet someone is driven in to the ground, face first and nothing.

What is the point of having a rule if it's never going to be enforced. 

 

[Akum 2,660]

57 minutes ago, Dante said:

Interestingly, if you look at the initial part of the play, Gray has his arm around Nev's  waist and if the positions were reversed and Gray was in front he would have been paid a free. It's amazing how forwards, especially high profile ones, are protected and backmen get nothing. 

The other thing is that Jetta would have easily broken the tackle and continued running if Dixon hadn't hit him high and knocked him to the ground. Dixon doesn't have the strength to hold on.

[DemonWheels 1,055]

This might be obvious to some, but having now watched the replay and recalling some small frustrations during the second half watching at the ground, I reckon we're still lacking a certain type of player in our forward structure. That sort of player would be the one to compete and jump high when we have to bomb into our forward 50. Get their hands on the ball at its highest point and either mark it or bring to ground (directly in front of them ideally) - basically what Daniher and Ben Brown are doing. We've already got this player on the list: Weideman.

As soon he's ready to play in the seniors regularly - which is hopefully at the start of 2018 after another pre season - we'll have the perfect balance. In the mean time I think we haven't quite got the balance right - Hogan showed on the weekend his best position is a lead up Cente Half forward who can use his pace and agility at ground level.

[Dante 2,739]

1 hour ago, DemonWheels said:

This might be obvious to some, but having now watched the replay and recalling some small frustrations during the second half watching at the ground, I reckon we're still lacking a certain type of player in our forward structure. That sort of player would be the one to compete and jump high when we have to bomb into our forward 50. Get their hands on the ball at its highest point and either mark it or bring to ground (directly in front of them ideally) - basically what Daniher and Ben Brown are doing. We've already got this player on the list: Weideman.

As soon he's ready to play in the seniors regularly - which is hopefully at the start of 2018 after another pre season - we'll have the perfect balance. In the mean time I think we haven't quite got the balance right - Hogan showed on the weekend his best position is a lead up Cente Half forward who can use his pace and agility at ground level.

Oh! God, I hope Old Dee doesn't read this post, can you white out Weideman's name.