List Management

[rjay 24,917]

We've lauded the work of Jason Taylor & the recruiting team and love the regeneration of the club under PJ & Roos but what about our list management.

Last year we recruited an EFC player with possible sanctions hanging over him, unfortunately that decision left us one down on the list. Luckily we had a good run with injury & it didn't really hurt us.

We got rid of one problem child & took on another (the prince) who then retired leaving us again one down on the list...this one has hurt us.

We have a list deficiency & this is not a hindsight call.

It was obvious to many of us that we were light on in the ruck division.

Max was carrying the load but had been injury prone. Big Jake gives his all but was/is a battler and has also struggled with injury...we then had King who was recovering from a knee and had only played minutes at VFL level and recruited a kid who is not ready for VFL footy let alone AFL.

Our current ruck predicament was predictable and we didn't take out insurance. Someone like Minson would be very handy about now.

Being one list position short hasn't helped but also not using a rookie spot for insurance has hurt.

What also hasn't helped us is we don't have any tall key position players who could go into the ruck and give a contest.

Watts has battled manfully and many have called for Pedders to come and or Frost to take over. Watts 196cm, Pedders 193cm, Frost 194cm, Weid 195cm, Hogan 195cm, Tommy Mc 194cm....

The Dogs didn't need to use Minson as they had key position players in Boyd and Roughead at 200cm and another in Campbell.

A lot will point to a lack of outside run & class but I think we can cover that. To me we lack good adaptable talls...and insurance.

The luck is not running with us this year but we also haven't done ourselves any favours with list decisions.

 

 

 

 

[Redleg 40,895]

Agree with you. We punted on Max staying fit and having Jake as a backup if he didn't. Losing both in 3 weeks for long periods is just plain bad luck.

We are now in a very difficult position.

[Wiseblood 24,637]

20 minutes ago, rjay said:

We've lauded the work of Jason Taylor & the recruiting team and love the regeneration of the club under PJ & Roos but what about our list management.

Last year we recruited an EFC player with possible sanctions hanging over him, unfortunately that decision left us one down on the list. Luckily we had a good run with injury & it didn't really hurt us.

We got rid of one problem child & took on another (the prince) who then retired leaving us again one down on the list...this one has hurt us.

We have a list deficiency & this is not a hindsight call.

 

Of course it's a hindsight call, rjay.  If Gawn and Spencer stay healthy then we don't have this discussion.  They go down and suddenly we have 'gee, in hindsight, we're light on in the ruck division...'.

We have two established ruckmen on the list and two developing.  You can't plan for both established ruckmen to go down as they have.  We don't know if Minson would provide us anything more in this situation than, say, Sam Frost.  Minson couldn't get a run in a Dogs side that used key position players in the ruck instead.  That's pretty telling.

We just have to grin and bear it.  Our mids are going to need to work extra hard around the stoppages as we won't be getting first use often.

[grazman 7,432]

We recruited Smith and Keilty as KPF insurance along with Pedersen.  We have four ruck men on our list.  I'm not sure a fifth would have provided the right list balance given that most sides only play one ruck man in the team.  The issue with our list is it's age/game profile.  We just need to get more games into our developing talls like Weideman, Oscar, Frost, McKenna, and Joel Smith (who I think could play CHB), You can throw Hogan in there too for a KPF that's only played two seasons of AFL.  

I agree re Lumumba and Melksham though... very odd recruitment decisions.  Most supporters (including from their original clubs) didn't rate them - why did we?  I think we win with Bernie and Hibberd.  I am ambivalent about Tyson though, does he wear contact lenses?

[IvanBartul13 2,564]

To balance out your points you do need to look also at the impact of adding a player such as Minson to the list.   If Gawn and Spencer both don't get injured the player languishes at VFL level and potentially stymies the development of King and Filipovic.  I really think this is a case of extreme bad luck - including King getting injured.  Also think that while it is a bad situation there are plenty of options - Tom McDonald as a running ruckman and other ideas.

[Adzman 2,154]

The list management is fine. It would have been kind of the AFL to allow us an additional rookie when the prince retired, but we aren't Collingwood or Hawthorn so the AFL wasn't going to do us any favours.

Gawn, Spencer and King should be enough to compete. We are just unlucky King has been out for 12 months and has just come back, and to lose your first and second ruck in 3 weeks is just cruel. You just can't plan for that. No club can.

[rjay 24,917]

12 minutes ago, Wiseblood said:

Of course it's a hindsight call, rjay.  If Gawn and Spencer stay healthy then we don't have this discussion.  They go down and suddenly we have 'gee, in hindsight, we're light on in the ruck division...'.

We have two established ruckmen on the list and two developing.  You can't plan for both established ruckmen to go down as they have.  We don't know if Minson would provide us anything more in this situation than, say, Sam Frost.  Minson couldn't get a run in a Dogs side that used key position players in the ruck instead.  That's pretty telling.

We just have to grin and bear it.  Our mids are going to need to work extra hard around the stoppages as we won't be getting first use often.

Disagree, there were a few on here that were concerned about a ruck deficiency before the start of the season.

That's not hindsight, it's foresight and what our list management people are paid for.

...and as I pointed out, our lack of height around the ground means we don't have the luxury of using KPP in the ruck. Watts at 196cm is our tallest KPP.

As 'Red' says, we took a punt and it came unstuck.

 

 

Edited April 24, 2017 by rjay

[Skuit 10,031]

Managing the ruck component of a list is a constant tightrope nowadays with high mid rotations and no spare spot on the bench for a #2. If your back-up is good enough as a back-up he'll want games and be lured elsewhere - an issue compounded by the time it takes to develop a ruck in-house. You need a second ruck with a second discipline and then an insurance ruck in the waiting.

[dazzledavey36 54,860]

The rookie draft was the perfect opportunity to grab a mature age ruckman which i was crossing my fingers for.

I was pretty disappointed that we went down the pathway of grabbing another skinny project ruckman who had only played 12 months of footy. This is nothing against young Filipovic who i think is a fine young man, but he is 5 years away from at least making any sort of contribution at AFL level. Right now he is playing development league football.

Even young Oscar Mcinerney would have been an ideal selection (currently playing well in the NEAFL for Brissy) as that mature age ruckman.

I few on here last year voiced this exact concern as some didn't see Spencer as an ideal back up. 

 

 

Edited April 24, 2017 by dazzledavey36

[rjay 24,917]

3 minutes ago, Adzman said:

The list management is fine. It would have been kind of the AFL to allow us an additional rookie when the prince retired, but we aren't Collingwood or Hawthorn so the AFL wasn't going to do us any favours.

Gawn, Spencer and King should be enough to compete.We are just unlucky King has been out for 12 months and has just come back, and to lose your first and second ruck in 3 weeks is just cruel. You just can't plan for that. No club can.

It was a known fact that King was injured so of course you can plan for that.

[Wiseblood 24,637]

2 minutes ago, rjay said:

Disagree, there were a few on here that were concerned about a ruck deficiency before the start of the season.

That's not hindsight, it's foresight and what our list management people are paid for.

...and as I pointed out, our lack of height around the ground means we don't have the luxury of using KPP in the ruck. Watts at 196cm is our tallest KPP.

As 'Red' says, we took a punt and it came unstuck.

 

It's only foresight as both have gone down injured.  I can understand a few being slightly worried before the season, but it isn't something I'd call foresight.  Again, if it doesn't happen then it isn't an issue.  

And for the record, I still don't see it as an issue.  We could have a third ruckman thrust into the game next week who does down injured in the first 5 minutes.  What then?  Same scenario.

[Jaded No More 68,899]

How many teams have 3 mature experienced rucks on their list?

We are unlucky but we are not dumb. 

[Bonkers 994]

We don't have a player who can play the forward/ruck role effectively. This was spoken about last year & it's why we are still talking about Watts & Pederson to fill in. If we had addressed it at least we'd have some back up now.

The ruck/forward role is a little bit of a wasted position as it's rare to find a quality player for that role. The example being Hawthorn recruiting Hale & then Vickery to replace him. Who would we have traded in?

We've got other issues at the moment still, not enough good kicks but a lot of inside ball winners. We need to find a balance.

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

15 minutes ago, Jaded said:

How many teams have 3 mature experienced rucks on their list?

We are unlucky but we are not dumb. 

Depends what you define as 'mature'.

I would say we would have one of the thinnest ruck stocks within the AFL. 

 

[Pennant St Dee 13,171]

32 minutes ago, Jaded said:

How many teams have 3 mature experienced rucks on their list?

We are unlucky but we are not dumb. 

Meth Coast have Nic Nat, Lycett & Petrie out injured. They are now going with Vardy and Giles

[praha 11,240]

Part of the reason why I just don't think we're ready for finals. We have gaps around the place and find ourselves plugging holes and then creating new ones elsewhere. We need Weeds

[old55 23,546]

41 minutes ago, Bonkers said:

We don't have a player who can play the forward/ruck role effectively. This was spoken about last year & it's why we are still talking about Watts & Pederson to fill in. If we had addressed it at least we'd have some back up now.

The ruck/forward role is a little bit of a wasted position as it's rare to find a quality player for that role. The example being Hawthorn recruiting Hale & then Vickery to replace him. Who would we have traded in?

We've got other issues at the moment still, not enough good kicks but a lot of inside ball winners. We need to find a balance.

Agree.  Fwd-Ruck was the option.  Vardy and Darcy Cameron were available to us at the Hannan and Johnstone picks.

[Wrecker45 3,378]

17 minutes ago, Pennant St Dee said:

Meth Coast have Nic Nat, Lycett & Petrie out injured. They are now going with Vardy and Giles

Nic Nat was injured before the season started. We'd have drafted more ruckman if Gawn was too.

[M_9 2,082]

19 minutes ago, praha said:

Part of the reason why I just don't think we're ready for finals. We have gaps around the place and find ourselves plugging holes and then creating new ones elsewhere. We need Weeds

I thought I saw some TAC video of Weideman rucking in the forward 50?

[Wiseblood 24,637]

26 minutes ago, Pennant St Dee said:

Meth Coast have Nic Nat, Lycett & Petrie out injured. They are now going with Vardy and Giles

Nic Nat and Lycett were already injured and projected to be out most of the season.  Our two ruckmen were super fit.  Big difference.

[goodwindees 2,488]

I have posted on several occasions over the last 6 years for the "Spencer experiment" to be finalised.  Minson isn't the answer but even he was best on against Spud Spencer in VFL GF 7 months ago. 

 

[old55 23,546]

4 minutes ago, M_9 said:

I thought I saw some TAC video of Weideman rucking in the forward 50?

Ultimately Weed needs to ruck relief but he's a couple of years off it.

[Lucifers Hero 39,737]

Have to agree with rjay.  It is not hindsight by posters.  It was discussed at length during the trade/draft period on DL. 

There are several parts to our list management dilemma re ruckmen:  

1) It is known that the more successful clubs have at least 3 ruckman eg Hawks, Syd, WCE. ready to play at AFL level and usually 1 developing ruckman.

2) It is known that those that don't have 3 do have (and each week select) a starting 22 player who is a backup ruckman.  Think Boyd, Lobb. Jenkins. Blicvat. 

We don't have either so we are not protected during a game nor if our 2 main ruckman are out medium term with injuries. 

3) We know that Spencer is an FA on a one year contract, expiring this year.  So no guarantee of his tenure.  So next year we may be down to 1 ruckman if Spencer exercises his FA rights.  Probable, I don't know but certainly possible. 

4) We know that King (21yo) and Filipovic (18yo) are babies in ruckman terms and some way from any AFL football let alone holding down a regular AFL ruck role - probably, 3 to 4 years away.

Clearly the strategy was to make Watts the game day backup ruckman.  Already we can see the folly of that.  Firstly, he is not built for the role like Boyd, Lobb etc.  Secondly, Jack rucking leaves a gaping whole in our forward line as we are left with one tall forward (ala Geelong, Richmond) and it has cost us two games.

Yes injuries cannot be foreseen but blind freddy could see our ruck stocks for the next 3/4 years were/are thread bare.  

So no, it is not hindsight.  And yes, it is a huge problem. 

Our list management re ruckman was a roll of the dice, we lost.  But it needn't have been this way.  It was very foreseeable. 

I have heard it said that while list management decisions are a team effort, trading of players is largely the coaches call to fill a short/medium term need.  The drafting of players (especially at the pointy end) is primarily the domain of recruiting to build a balanced long-term list. 

Somewhere along the line in 2016 we misjudged our ruck stocks for the short/medium term.

Edited April 25, 2017 by Lucifer's Hero

[Diamond_Jim 12,568]

The third man up allowed many teams to paper over inadequate ruck stocks.

 

[Wiseblood 24,637]

22 minutes ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

 

So no, it is not hindsight.  And yes, it is a huge problem. 

 

Yes, it is hindsight, but I've said that enough.  I won't change anybodies mind.

And it's only a problem now as we've had injuries.  If Gawn goes through the year as is AA ruckman again, which he would have done, then nobody cares about the ruck situation.