The Loss we had to Have...

[Pates 9,658]

I classified the Essendon loss as loss the spured us on. Is was disgraceful a slap in the face to the fans but it seemed to wake us up. After that we didn't lose to anyone I'd really classify as below us (Saints are on par/above us). Until Carlton. 

I felt the benefits of losing to Essendon was that it taught the players to be on they're game no matter who the opposition and will themselves over the line, even if it's ugly. But they still haven't learned. 

I don't see this as a loss we had to have, this is (yet another) wasted opportunity and seemingly a very dissapointing finish to a mostly positive season. Worst of all the momentum we gained the last couple of weeks to potentially take into 2017 has been wasted away. 

I still look at 2017 with positivity, but no doubt it's brought a lot of us back down to earth. 

[Sir Why You Little 36,954]

8 minutes ago, The heart beats true said:

If we won it wouldn't have been a crucial game. Was the Hawks or Port games crucial? Yep - and was he good? Yep.

They are only crucial in hindsight and our entire midfield 'team' got beaten today.

Stop having a crack at Jones. He's been our only consistent player over the passed 5 years. Thats not 'supporting' anything.

Suit yourself mate. Our leaders were awful today when it really counted, and yes today was a crucial game

 

[Wiseblood 24,637]

46 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

Do not make excuses

Today was a disgrace. A real chance & they were not switched on

How many times does Jones fail dismally in crucial games?

He didn't 'fail dismally'.  What else would you have him do?  

And by that, I mean - was it his fault that Hogan and Petracca completely stuffed gettable chances in the last quarter?  Was it his fault that Neal-Bullen and Weideman were picked, even though they were clearly wrong decisions?

Jones does everything he can.  He might miss the odd target from time to time, but wasn't the problem at all today.

Edited August 21, 2016 by Wiseblood

[John Crow Batty 8,860]

3 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

Suit yourself mate. Our leaders were awful today when it really counted, and yes today was a crucial game

 

I was particularly disapointed in Jones when he gave away the free and ensuring goal when he amateurishly dragged the ball in during the second quarter. It was incredibly dumb and damaging. 

[MadAsHell 4,212]

Young list, having trouble backing up after two very good weeks. We were able to get away with this type of performance against Gold Coast, not Carlton, who still have the nucleus of a team that played in a semi final three years ago and have played finals 4 of the last 7 years. They also field a 22 that regularly rank from about 7th - 11th for average ge & games experience compared to us who are always in the bottom 4.

Disappointed with the loss, but not the end of the world. It wouldn't surprise me to see us win next week.

[martin 727]

Don't always agree with Roos but his presser was spot on. Carlton have numerous big bodied,mature and experienced players,we do not. Extremely young teams are inconsistent whilst the Blues older players can lead the way on a given day.Not happy tonight but our future is brighter. There will more bad performances to come,however,outweighed by the good.

[buck_nekkid 5,844]

We don't have to have any loss.  We simply snatched this loss from the jaws of mediocrity.  When we are 'on' we are an exciting team to watch.  When we are off, we are shocking.  Today we were beaten at our own game, and then we were just too flat to respond in any meaningful way.  It was a crap performance, but there is a lot to be positive about for next year.

There will be some decisions made over the off season, and hopefully some more quality outside run and decision making will be pumped into the team.  Goody can then get busy and put a quality preseason into the group.

Pass for next year?  14 wins?

 

[CBDees 3,167]

Today we played "away", starting as outright favourites against a team who had lost their last eight games. Despite being at the "G", we had to endure wearing an "away" jumper and many of our barrackers (c.f. Supporters) strolled along for their first game of the year and had to suffer Carlton's American-style on-ground entertainment for their "Grand Final" 2017 exit.

Yes, Carlton played above themselves, our invincible midfield let us down, the'Weed! Experiment backfired and we had far too many turnovers. Twenty free kicks to our five however was a disgrace and we deserved to win or at least get a lot closer (as our Dream destined).

We were never destined to win by the margin we needed however and this year the better side scrapes into the Finals only to lose the first round as the eight place-getter always does!

[Akum 2,660]

1 hour ago, rjay said:

Not convinced on this one 'Pro', he sure needs to though.

Salem will be a player but how far he goes is the question for me. Will he be a good average player or start to be the player we think he can be? next year will tell that story for me. Maybe not a true make of break.

Stretch, many were pumping him up over the last few weeks. Today shows he's no guarantee.

Yep, it's a young exciting list. It's why I see today as part of the growth and haven't been devastated by the loss. You could see it coming in the first 10 mins.

I stand by the comments on Frost

Kent & Stretch are no guarantees.

Vince not shocking just getting older even though he still looks and behaves like a kid. Some of his indiscretions this year are a sign of a player getting frustrated, still has a role.

Bugg is a depth player, along with Harmes they will fill a role but both hit of miss kicks. We need Hibberd...

You are looking at the list like Dimmer, can't see the faults for the team loyalty.

So you seem to believe that a game like today is the true form, and the games against Hawks, North, WCE etc were the aberration?

You're looking at this not as "the loss we had to have", but more like "the loss that changes everything".

Picking out imperfections in players is an easy game, but ultimately it doesn't mean much. It's a fallacy that we'll only be any good once we replace our imperfect players with stars.

I'm more concerned about how good our midfield can be if Gawn doesn't dominate. And how well we move the ball if the space we like to create to run into at CHF gets closed up. It's how we meet challenges like this - as a team, and as a club - that will determine how far we go.

[leucopogon 1,519]

OP makes some valid points, but I disagree that it was a loss we had to have. I don't think it will help the team, only set them back further, knowing that with finals on the line they managed to not fight out a result against a bottom 4 side. Mind boggling really and will surely sap the confidence of the playing group. I thought this kind of crap was behind us, how wrong I was.

A few comments about players:

1) Bernie - Holy Cow he's really dropped away hasn't he? If he continues on this trajectory, I predict he'll be wearing a Casey jumper with Colin and Dunny most of next season.

2) Pedo - should have been out there today. The Hogan and Weed show was a complete and utter fizzer.

3) Frost - I reckon he'll be okay, the flaws in his game can be fixed. One of the biggest of which is keeping his feet in a contest. Goes to ground willingly far too often and its just plain stupid, but surely that can be coached out of him.

4) Kent - I agree on this about it being make or break next year. He'll need to lift if he's going to keep the likes of Harmes (lets face it he's a forward not a back) and Ben Ken out of the side.

5) Hogan - I'm so underwhelmed by what I see from Hogan each week (I know he takes marks on the wing but so what, every time he marks the ball he takes his full 10 seconds to get it moving, slows us down incredibly, also has what can only be described as the ultra-yips with his set goal kicking). It really is infuriating watching him play. I know I'll cop flak for this, but I'd be entertaining trade offers.

 

[dimmy 1,307]

I agree with a lot of rjay's analysis. Jack Viney seems to have trouble with BIG midfielders ala Ollie Wines and Cripps.  Endeavour covers a lot of deficiencies until it gets exposed by class.

I think that our midfield is quite inexperienced insofar as Clarrie, Angus,Trac, Billy and Jack V are concerned and today they got slaughtered. . Clarrie Angus and Trac are the right size midfielder for today's footy (ala Cripps) I feel that the first four will develop exponentially and Jack V has shown a big improvement on last year, but I agree that disposal is a problem for he and Dom Tyson. Modern football's biggest crime is losing possession and por disposal ( including bombing) is a major cause of it. Nathan J and Jack V are small midfielders and see ball get ball players. They will provide a strong presence for us in and under so to speak.

Max will develop his ruck work and become an absolute standout. Asto how long we can use Jack Watts as the spare parts ruckman, I do not know. Maybe we need to have a genuine back up plan.

Jack Watts is becoming a much better player with better people around him. Like Christian Salem he makes good decisions when they have the ball in hand.

Defence wise we are putting a good grouping together with Neville Jetta proving to be one of our key players. Has a great heart !!! The MacDonalds are now playing with confidence and Omac will really benefit from his grounding this year ( which is bearing fruit in the last few weeks. Frosty takes them on but maybe should learn some discretion. Jayden Hunt is only a first year player STILL !! so has some upside to come.

Remember today we had less than 80 point kicked against us with a midfield getting belted.         

I read on another thread the suggestion Jesse may be better at CHF. He took 5 contested marks today so he is back getting the ball. Hawthorn's strength is their field kicking and maybe that could be a really good focus going forward. Kenty has had better days than today. And I was really surprised to find how many possessions Trac got today !!! He will become a bigger presence on the ground.

So really I feel today was a hiccup, but the future is getting closer. However wins against CArlton and Essendon2016 are essential as those two losses are the reason we are not there ...yet.

[dtrinh 71]

I think the theme isn't the loss we had to have but the loss we know we would have. It must be a mindset thing that we are developing, where, as an underdog we fight hard but when we go in as favourites we lose. I don't know if it's just in the players heads or is it just coincidence. We came out in the first quarter today and were absolutely terrible. In other games this season against better teams, we were able to come out after quarter time/ half time etc and push the opposition and sometimes win. Today was just atrocious, as Roos mentioned the skill errors and the costly missed opportunities just killed us. Is this because the players just thought 'we can come and should win' because we're favourites?

[Gator 17,261]

24 minutes ago, leucopogon said:

5) Hogan - I'm so underwhelmed by what I see from Hogan each week. I know I'll cop flak for this, but I'd be entertaining trade offers.

 

Why would you cop flak ?  Everyone is entitled to an opinion. 

Incredibly inane as it is.

[Moonshadow 17,675]

2 minutes ago, ProDee said:

Why would you cop flak ?  Everyone is entitled to an opinion. 

Incredibly inane as it is.

As was yours earlier this year regarding Jack Watts. Everyone make mistakes.

What's your point, apart for belittling?

[Akum 2,660]

1 hour ago, martin said:

Don't always agree with Roos but his presser was spot on. Carlton have numerous big bodied,mature and experienced players,we do not. Extremely young teams are inconsistent whilst the Blues older players can lead the way on a given day.Not happy tonight but our future is brighter. There will more bad performances to come,however,outweighed by the good.

We certainly were smashed physically by both Port and Hawthorn, both of whom targeted our younger players with absolute impunity. Looks like that's something we're going to have to get used to, though perhaps another reason for picking bigger & more mature bodies in the first place.

We're much too polite physically. With most other teams, if you get rid of the ball just before being tackled, they'll go through with the physical impact (though not the grab - that would be penalised!) and crunch you to the ground then fall on top of you. When someone we're about to tackle gets rid of the ball just before, we seem to try to pull up or not go through with the hit. We need to know how to dish out the physical stuff when necessary.

[leave it to deever 17,511]

The scary thing from this years season is how much Max Gawn has become a barometer of the rest of the team. Of all our 10 wins he has fired with marking and possessions around the ground as well as dominating the ruck.

In every one of our losses (correct me if Im wrong) he hasn't done that much in terms of getting marks and kicks. Not blaming him as he is probably worn out rucking solo.

Is it a glaring issue for anyone else? 

There are a few players I am worried about and VDB is one of them. Garlett is a concern now along with Kent for me. 

Vince doesnt belong in the backline. Not worried about stretch, he like Oscar M will improve. Wied, Gus, Oliver, Viney and Tracca are still learning and growing.

Watts a poor day but great season. 

Hope Wagner can get back to early glimpses of himself. Melksham was someone I wanted to see play.

If Hogan can fix his kicking he will be a superstar. He gives his all I believe.

There are a lot of players on our list that seem in limbo like Dunn, Garland, Dawes, Spencer, King, JKH, Grimes, Trenners, White , Newton, Hulett and Terlich.

As frustrated I am with the loss today,  I think given the talent and age of many players we will improve but if we don't play finals next year, it will be a disaster.

 

 

[rjay 24,851]

1 hour ago, Akum said:

So you seem to believe that a game like today is the true form, and the games against Hawks, North, WCE etc were the aberration?

You're looking at this not as "the loss we had to have", but more like "the loss that changes everything".

Picking out imperfections in players is an easy game, but ultimately it doesn't mean much. It's a fallacy that we'll only be any good once we replace our imperfect players with stars.

I'm more concerned about how good our midfield can be if Gawn doesn't dominate. And how well we move the ball if the space we like to create to run into at CHF gets closed up. It's how we meet challenges like this - as a team, and as a club - that will determine how far we go.

I probably should have titled the thread "The loss we were always going to have"...

I think we are tracking well, Roos & PJ have done a massive job to get us back on track and I think they are well aware of where we sit unlike our friends at Punt Rd.

With a young team we are always going to be up & down...I think there should be some genuine excitement for the future.

...It doesn't mean there are not problems and there are players who will not be up to the challenge. I'm looking at what a Premiership team might look like for us in the future. I'm looking at some of the players who I think won't take us there & what we need to get there.

Also I'm looking at what some like Viney need to do to reach the next level. As 'dimmy' points out he has trouble with the Big mids, he has to get smarter, he's no longer the bull at a gate kid at school who scares other kids his age. He's been really good this year but must evolve his game to be better & a better leader.

Games like today's give a really good gauge, they are true to form for a young team as are games like the Hawthorn win.

[Akum 2,660]

1 hour ago, rjay said:

I probably should have titled the thread "The loss we were always going to have"...

I think we are tracking well, Roos & PJ have done a massive job to get us back on track and I think they are well aware of where we sit unlike our friends at Punt Rd.

With a young team we are always going to be up & down...I think there should be some genuine excitement for the future.

...It doesn't mean there are not problems and there are players who will not be up to the challenge. I'm looking at what a Premiership team might look like for us in the future. I'm looking at some of the players who I think won't take us there & what we need to get there.

Also I'm looking at what some like Viney need to do to reach the next level. As 'dimmy' points out he has trouble with the Big mids, he has to get smarter, he's no longer the bull at a gate kid at school who scares other kids his age. He's been really good this year but must evolve his game to be better & a better leader.

Games like today's give a really good gauge, they are true to form for a young team as are games like the Hawthorn win.

Really good balanced reply, total agreement here.

[Pates 9,658]

Despite the improvements we have made this year we still struggle with the favourites tag. Now I know surely the players don't focus on it but it's hard to argue with the fact that when we've been favourites this year we have either struggled to get the job done or just outright been pathetic. 

Seems like an obvious thing to say but the players better start getting used to it if they're wanting to figure in finals as chances are week to week we will become favourites more often than not (if up is truly where we're heading). 

The team is young, so yes prone to lapses in concentration and form but it really seems to coincide with lesser teams rather than the best. 

Will be very interesting to see how they finish off, cats will be out for blood to bolster their percentage so it's up to our players on how they respond and finish the year. 

[Akum 2,660]

13 minutes ago, Pates said:

Despite the improvements we have made this year we still struggle with the favourites tag. Now I know surely the players don't focus on it but it's hard to argue with the fact that when we've been favourites this year we have either struggled to get the job done or just outright been pathetic. 

Seems like an obvious thing to say but the players better start getting used to it if they're wanting to figure in finals as chances are week to week we will become favourites more often than not (if up is truly where we're heading). 

The team is young, so yes prone to lapses in concentration and form but it really seems to coincide with lesser teams rather than the best. 

Will be very interesting to see how they finish off, cats will be out for blood to bolster their percentage so it's up to our players on how they respond and finish the year. 

And there's a perfectly logical reason for that. The teams below us plan against us, by nullifying our strengths, which is startlingly easy to do, especially as we never make any attempt to counter their strategy.

For the best teams, their primary concern is to make sure their "normal" unaltered game stands up against all challengers. if they can't beat the 10th or 11th team without having o make specific plans, it's an admission that they're pretty weak. If they can't beat us without double-teaming on Gawn and putting a spare man in defence, that's just telling their finals opponents that their normal game isn't up to much. So they try to beat us on their merits, and we run them pretty close.

However, you're right that as we rise up the ladder, more teams will use specific plans to beat us, and we need to be able to counter it if they do. Roos prefers not to make coaching moves but to leave it up to the players to work it out - that's fine if you're Hawks or Swans, but when you're the youngest & least experienced side and you're in the other half of the ladder, you need the coach sitting on the sidelines to give you some help. 

[Ricky P 757]

2 hours ago, Pates said:

Despite the improvements we have made this year we still struggle with the favourites tag. Now I know surely the players don't focus on it but it's hard to argue with the fact that when we've been favourites this year we have either struggled to get the job done or just outright been pathetic. 

Seems like an obvious thing to say but the players better start getting used to it if they're wanting to figure in finals as chances are week to week we will become favourites more often than not (if up is truly where we're heading). 

The team is young, so yes prone to lapses in concentration and form but it really seems to coincide with lesser teams rather than the best. 

Will be very interesting to see how they finish off, cats will be out for blood to bolster their percentage so it's up to our players on how they respond and finish the year. 

People overstate the favourites thing. We were favourites against Gold Coast twice, Brisbane, Collingwood and Freo. I know we've lost to Essendon and Carlton and there was a stage there where we were literally no hope if we were favourites but it's really not the case anymore. 

Edited August 21, 2016 by Ricky P

[Mr Steve 3,820]

At the start of the season the general censuses was that Essendon would not win a game, Carlton would only win the one against Essendon. Deep down inside we all knew that would not happen, us Melbourne supporter just know stuff. 

[camillo 106]

10 hours ago, AngryAtCasey said:

Young list, having trouble backing up after two very good weeks. We were able to get away with this type of performance against Gold Coast, not Carlton, who still have the nucleus of a team that played in a semi final three years ago and have played finals 4 of the last 7 years. They also field a 22 that regularly rank from about 7th - 11th for average ge & games experience compared to us who are always in the bottom 4.

Disappointed with the loss, but not the end of the world. It wouldn't surprise me to see us win next week.

Now this is perspective ! 

[faultydet 7,594]

I cringed when I read the thread title.

If any loss is "the loss we needed to have", then after the decade of embarrassment we have endured, we should be absolutely invincible right now.

[Ron Burgundy 8,584]

Understand the sentiment rjay, but I can't agree.

That was a pathetic loss. They weren't switched on from the opening bounce. It was a very important game and they failed to deliver - a win is exactly what we needed.

Everyone had a shocker including the match committee.

The list is obviously young and talented, but it's a reminder that it's still young and inexperienced.