The OX slams 'crap' Demons.

[old dee 23,791]

1 hour ago, iv'a worn smith said:

Frankly, whether Ox's criticism and his rant were justified or not, for me it is a refreshing change that someone in the media, who actually supports the club, is having a red hot go.  From where I stand, I am getting very tired of excuses and whether we are beaten or not, a consistency in effort and intensity is all I am looking for at least in the short term.  Is that too much to ask?

it is not too much to ask iv'a .

If this continues in 2017 I will be at the same point.

[fredblackham 19]

I agree with the ox.  whilst we have improved, relative to the rest of the competition we are just treading water.  in hindsight we have beaten many sides when they have been in their poorest form for the season.

[Earl Hood 6,086]

4 hours ago, Wiseblood said:

Don't you know?

You could argue bad luck was involved.  In 1987 we were a huge chance, and we all know why we didn't make it to the big dance that year.  We seriously could have knocked Carlton off that year.  We deserved to go to the Grand Final.

In 1998 we got a rubbish draw, one that should NEVER have happened - having beaten Adelaide and St. Kilda we were forced to face North instead of playing the Swans, which Adelaide were able to do.  Had it been a North vs. Dees GF, could we have won?  Probably not, but who knows.

In 2000 we faced the juggernaut that was Essendon.  We did very well to get to the GF but didn't have the experience to roll them and, as much as we despise them, they deserved the flag that year. 

You could even argue that, in '94, we were close if not for a few injuries and having to play the Eagles in Perth in the Prelim.  A fully fit Allen Jakovich running rampant up forward could have swung things our way, but again, we'll never know.

You can throw severe injuries in to the mix with this one as well, especially during the mid to late 90's.  Plenty of talent cut down in their prime and, when they returned, they were never the same players.

Many of what I've mentioned above is vastly different to what the club is now.  The above teams had talent to burn and they got the absolute best out of their abilities.  Are we getting that now?  I'd say no.  It's all there but it's yet to either come out or come together as a unit.

Those teams above WERE good enough in my opinion, but it takes more than good side to get to there.  Our current side isn't even close to that yet.

Edit - as an aside, our development was very good back in those days.  Plenty of the players who came through to play in the senior side started off in the U19's.

Yes Wise you have covered most of it. I would also add that in the years we looked dangerous we would inevitably drop a succession of winnable games to ensure we did not finish top 2. This ensured we were playing cut throat finals games and later on that we would be travelling interstate like 94, 2002, 2006. 

In the late 80's I remember we could not win a game if Danny Hughes was missing, then in 94 we dropped successive games when the Ox was out, later on there was the Neitz effect.  Too much reliance on too few perhaps, not so much in talent but in terms of on field leadership.

Had we been able to keep our best players fit and durable like can be achieved with today's fitness regimes we would have snaffled a cup during the 90's I am sure.

I still think 1990, 91 and 1993 were missed opportunities; these were years when relatively ordinary sides got the chocolates. 

[Chris 2,892]

1 hour ago, fredblackham said:

I agree with the ox.  whilst we have improved, relative to the rest of the competition we are just treading water.  in hindsight we have beaten many sides when they have been in their poorest form for the season.

The lowest point any other team got to was really where we reached at the end of last year. We have a way to and from here if improvement isn't faster then I will get concerned. 

[Satyriconhome 10,878]

2 hours ago, Soidee said:

Spot on Stuie, Vogan Poetry is disrespectful of posters who have watched this side and supported them for decades.  To be 17 points up and then just get belted in the next quarter on a ground we are putrid at is just hopeless.  I believe in where the club is going but we need to win those games.  We still have no respect in the competition and that makes me angry.  To lose 14 times to a club is pathetic.  Our senior players need to grow up quick and support the young guys, frankly they are embarrassing.  Where is the killer instinct?  Nate Jones sometimes is not producing leadership when we really need it, for example at Etihad.  The Ox made some valid points, and all the soft flogs who think otherwise are disrespectful.

Everybody knows what the issues are, or the perceived issues

I walked away from Etihad totally disappointed by what I had witnessed,  but it's footy, nobody died, so I will watch the game at the weekend hoping for a better effort.

Some supporters seem to care what other teams supporters think of the team, I can't understand why, coz I don'tgive a flying. Is it a craving for acceptance like in the schoolyard 

. 

I believe if we all suck it up, the team can improve and we can give finals a shake   but we need a little bit of luck as well

My whole concern was Ox headline grabbing, gets the radio station named in the newspaper, was that the aim?

Why is a person who questions his motives a soft [censored], I have no great love for any of the media footy 'commentators, I think a lot of them now try and make the news rather than reporting it

[Pates 9,660]

Unless we beat another team of note this year I'd say our improvement overall hasn't been huge. Sadly we're on a slow burn with our improvement, not the rapid rise the dogs managed. It's frustrating because I felt like the stars had aligned for such a year but it hasn't turn out that way. 

But progress is progress, and we do have some genuinely good young players coming through, but it's the transition from the old Melbourne to the new Melbourne that is one of the biggest challenges. 

The Ox is right to be frustrated when talking about losing to the Saints 14 matches in a row, until we shed that stigma we won't have turned the corner. 

Edited July 20, 2016 by Pates

[DV8 2,271]

7 minutes ago, Pates said:

Unless we beat another team of note this year I'd say our improvement overall hasn't been huge. Sadly we're on a slow burn with our improvement, not the rapid rise the dogs managed. It's frustrating because I felt like the stars had aligned for such a year but it hasn't turn out that way. 

But progress is progress, and we do have some genuinely good young players coming through, but it's the transition from the old Melbourne to the new Melbourne that is one of the biggest challenges. 

The Ox is right to be frustrated when talking about losing to the Saints 14 matches in a row, until we shed that stigma we won't have turned the corner. 

the dogs have been building for 10 years. on & off field. solid club nowadays.

[monoccular 17,430]

7 hours ago, Satyriconhome said:

I have spoken to him a couple of times this year, same with PJ, must be you

Didn't say David N was working with the club tsk tsk get it right

Again you still haven't told me the reasons teams between 1965 and say 2005 didn't win a flag, Cam Schwab, the VFL? the AFL?  all the other teams were on drugs?

1965 - 1987 we were just nowhere near the target on or off the field.  The fall out from the outrageous sacking of TGNWS continued to (and perhaps still does) resonate for decades.

1987 - 2000 we were up and down - had the chronic / recurring injuries to the likes of Tingay, Glenn Lovett, Prymke, Jakovich, Lyon's chronic back problems, Ox, Neitz broken jaw etc etc not occurred we could well have snatched on (or more) in that period, especially 1990 - 1995.

1988 and 2000, our only two GFs, we came up against indisputably the best teams of their respective eras, and were clearly nowhere near them.  Nobody was.

And your final sentence has some relevance too - not all the other teams but one would strongly suspect that at least a couple may have had pharmacological assistance in the late 1980s and 1990s. And given their recent history, who knows about 2000?

Edited July 20, 2016 by monoccular

[Guest]

Wow, I'm a little worried I will get piled on should I give an opinion.

I think that Ox's points weren't necessarily headline chasing but I think he tended to conflate certain eras with each other. A lot of what he was saying was borne out of frustration. If put against a broader context, then I would agree. I think he could have made some points that would have held more weight if he were to criticize the Roos regime exclusively but I think he was venting and all over the shop in some places.

His sledge on Hogan I don't think was coming from the right place because I know Jesse is generally a pretty accurate kick for goal (albeit it with an average runup). I think Ox though in this case could have been a bit more artful (though as others have pointed out, Franky Leach asked his opinion as a supporter).

[John Crow Batty 8,863]

The Ox is becoming a POBOD like many here. Once upon a time the Hells Angels bikers were known as the POBOB's(Pizzed Off Bastards Of Berndoo). Any idea's for a suitable patch to wear?

Edited July 20, 2016 by america de cali

[Gator 17,357]

12 hours ago, Pates said:

Unless we beat another team of note this year I'd say our improvement overall hasn't been huge. Sadly we're on a slow burn with our improvement, not the rapid rise the dogs managed. It's frustrating because I felt like the stars had aligned for such a year but it hasn't turn out that way. 

But progress is progress, and we do have some genuinely good young players coming through, but it's the transition from the old Melbourne to the new Melbourne that is one of the biggest challenges. 

The Ox is right to be frustrated when talking about losing to the Saints 14 matches in a row, until we shed that stigma we won't have turned the corner. 

One win like that won't make a great deal of difference either way.  Give me a slow(ish) burn any day of the week over a rapid rise if the fast rise doesn't result in a flag, but gradual ascension paves the way to real success.

Port had a fast rise under Hinkley and lost a prelim in 2014 by a goal, but it's meaningless if it doesn't eventuate in a flag.

And has Footscray's "rapid rise" really been that fast ?  Imo, their rebuild started with Brendan McCartney in 2012 and is being carried through by Beveridge.  They drafted Wallis and Liberatore in 2010, Stringer, Macrae and Hunter in 2012, and Bontempelli in 2013.  These players along with Murphy, Matthew Boyd, Morris, Wood and Picken form the nucleus of their core group.  So from 2013 they've had 90% of the building blocks in place.  I doubt they'll win a flag in 2016, so it's likely to stretch into 5 years +.  I really like what they're doing, but it's not an overnight success and real improvement has been gradual.

Have people forgotten what Paul Roos took over ?  In October 2013 we were a 2 win/54% team.  The same year the Dogs were an 8 win/85% team.  See how far ahead they were ?  There's a chance Essendon will have a better year with half a team.  Beat the Lions and they'll be a 2 win/60+% team.  The Lions are in disarray and by year's end will be in similar circumstances to the Melbourne of 2013.  And let's not forget that one of our wins was against a fledgling expansion club in the Giants, who won one for the year, so under normal circumstances we were a one win team in 2013.  Who here expects the Lions to be playing finals in 2019 ?  Anyone ?  Because that would be the equivalent of Melbourne playing finals in 2016 based on the side and club Roos took over.   

In 2013 we won 20 quarters at a success rate of 23%.  We're on track to win 43 quarters this year and are presently tracking at 49%.  Our increase in scoring in 2016 is one of the best in VFL/AFL history.

Roos inherited a team whose best player was a B grader in Nathan Jones (improved him to B+).  Looking over the young talent now and the general improvement/upward curve I reckon Roos has been worth every cent.  The foundations for real success are in place.  Who'll forget the story of an almost broken group of senior players who had an honesty session with Roos in late 2013 as they laid bare where the club was really at in an effort to convince him to steer them out of its seemingly never ending abyss.  

I expect to finish on 9 or 10 wins, but whether we do or not, the club is far advanced from the competition's laughing stock that Roos inherited and I believe we'll look back at his tenure as one of the most compelling periods in our history.  Outside of GWS and the Dogs I have no doubt we have the most talented core of young players in the game and are close to becoming a destination club.       

Edited July 21, 2016 by ProDee

[iv'a worn smith 1,979]

29 minutes ago, ProDee said:

One win like that won't make a great deal of difference either way.  Give me a slow(ish) burn any day of the week over a rapid rise if the fast rise doesn't result in a flag, but gradual ascension paves the way to real success.

Port had a fast rise under Hinkley and lost a prelim in 2014 by a goal, but it's meaningless if it doesn't eventuate in a flag.

And has Footscray's "rapid rise" really been that fast ?  Imo, their rebuild started with Brendan McCartney in 2012 and is being carried through by Beveridge.  They drafted Wallis and Liberatore in 2010, Stringer, Macrae and Hunter in 2012, and Bontempelli in 2013.  These players along with Murphy, Matthew Boyd, Morris, Wood and Picken form the nucleus of their core group.  So from 2013 they've had 90% of the building blocks in place.  I doubt they'll win a flag in 2016, so it's likely to stretch into 5 years +.  I really like what they're doing, but it's not an overnight success and real improvement has been gradual.

Have people forgotten what Paul Roos took over ?  In October 2013 we were a 2 win/54% team.  The same year the Dogs were an 8 win/85% team.  See how far ahead they were ?  There's a chance Essendon will have a better year with half a team.  Beat the Lions and they'll be a 2 win/60+% team.  The Lions are in disarray and by year's end will be in similar circumstances to the Melbourne of 2013.  And let's not forget that one of our wins was against a fledgling expansion club in the Giants, who won one for the year, so under normal circumstances we were a one win team in 2013.  Who here expects the Lions to be playing finals in 2019 ?  Anyone ?  Because that would be the equivalent of Melbourne playing finals in 2016 based on the side and club Roos took over.   

In 2013 we won 20 quarters at a success rate of 23%.  We're on track to win 43 quarters this year and are presently tracking at 49%.  Our increase in scoring in 2016 is one of the best in VFL/AFL history.

Roos inherited a team whose best player was a B grader in Nathan Jones (improved him to B+).  Looking over the young talent now and the general improvement/upward curve I reckon Roos has been worth every cent.  The foundations for real success are in place.  Who'll forget the story of an almost broken group of senior players who had an honesty session with Roos in late 2013 as they laid bare where the club was really in an effort to convince him to join and steer the club out of its seemingly never ending abyss.  

I expect to finish on 9 or 10 wins, but whether we do or not, the club is so far advanced from the competition's laughing stock that Roos inherited; and I believe we'll look back at his tenure as one of the most compelling periods in the club's history.  Outside of GWS and the Dogs I have no doubt we have the most talented core of young players in the game and are close to becoming a destination club.       

You've nailed it.  I would just add though, while the comparison to Footscray is valid, we were a basket case both on and particularly off the field, so it was an extra long way back from there for us.  I agree, as frustrating as things may still seem to be, Roos' impact on this club will leave a legacy of sustainability, which we have not seen in years.  I also get the feeling that Goodwin will instil an additional layer of innovation going forward. 

Edited July 21, 2016 by iv'a worn smith

[Gator 17,357]

14 minutes ago, iv'a worn smith said:

You've nailed it.  I would just add though, while the comparison to Footscray is valid, we were a basket case both on and particularly off the field, so it was an extra long way back from there for us.  I agree, as frustrating as things may still seem to be, Roos' impact on this club will leave a legacy of sustainability, which we have not seen in years.  I also get the feeling that would Goodwin will instil an additional layer of innovation going forward. 

Yes, and I also didn't mention Peter Jackson, who has been equally important.

[iv'a worn smith 1,979]

1 minute ago, ProDee said:

Yes, and I also didn't mention Peter Jackson, who has been equally important.

An absolute gun.  We are so lucky to have him.  Everything PJ does, is with an eye to the future, 

[rufus 1,162]

Our problem now is the same problem we've always had. Deep in the bowels of this club there just is no real demand on competitiveness. There is just excuse after excuse after excuse. Our players don't truly want to get their hands dirty, you can see it every time our opponents step up the physical pressure. We are powder puffs. Who is going to the person to change that? And when?? Viney looks like he wants to change it but does he have enough committed and capable mates?

Unfortunately we lack the pride/spirit in the jumper that you generally get from the players at Ess/Car/Coll etc., and this is the most disappointing thing about the MFC.

[old dee 23,791]

I notice peter has never repeated his " we should  be playing finals in 2016" statement.

Every one is allowed a few mistakes but I often wonder if he quickly discovered after that he was at the MFC?

 

[old dee 23,791]

11 minutes ago, rufus said:

Our problem now is the same problem we've always had. Deep in the bowels of this club there just is no real demand on competitiveness. There is just excuse after excuse after excuse. Our players don't truly want to get their hands dirty, you can see it every time our opponents step up the physical pressure. We are powder puffs. Who is going to the person to change that? And when?? Viney looks like he wants to change it but does he have enough committed and capable mates?

Unfortunately we lack the pride/spirit in the jumper that you generally get from the players at Ess/Car/Coll etc., and this is the most disappointing thing about the MFC.

Being down and having no sustained success for half a century will do that to any sporting club rufus.

The simple fact is that right now ( like most of the last 50 years ) we don't have the players to be better than a 9th of 10th team.

The hope is that some of the kids will develop into good players and will take us higher.

In 2016 we have our best socks pulled up and all the "right" attitude in the world wont change our results.

Hopefully with a few more player changes and as  some kids develop we will go higher.

Edited July 21, 2016 by old dee

[iv'a worn smith 1,979]

17 minutes ago, old dee said:

Being down and having no sustained success for half a century will do that to any sporting club rufus.

The simple fact is that right now ( like most of the last 50 years ) we don't have the players to be better than a 9th of 10th team.

The hope is that some of the kids will develop into good players and will take us higher.

In 2016 we have our best socks pulled up and all the "right" attitude in the world wont change our results.

Hopefully with a few more player changes and some kids develop we will go higher.

The '50 year' syndrome is a fundamental issue OD.  Clearly, it means that several generations of players have had to do their jobs, with that environment hanging over them.  A few metaphorical coats of paint won't get rid of the stench.  We needed a total rebuild years ago, not a dodgy reno done by the O'Reilly Brothers, a la Fawlty Towers.

Edited July 21, 2016 by iv'a worn smith

[rufus 1,162]

14 minutes ago, old dee said:

Being down and having no sustained success for half a century will do that to any sporting club rufus.

The simple fact is that right now ( like most of the last 50 years ) we don't have the players to be better than a 9th of 10th team.

The hope is that some of the kids will develop into good players and will take us higher.

In 2016 we have our best socks pulled up and all the "right" attitude in the world wont change our results.

Hopefully with a few more player changes and as  some kids develop we will go higher.

Fair enough.

Let me ask you a question though. How would you say Essendon are going this year? My personal view is that I think they are having a genuine crack each week and have done well to avoid any absolute thumpings. Now, if it had been Melbourne in their position, I have no doubt we would have lost multiple (probably majority of) games by triple figure margins, and every week it would have been ok because of x, y and z.

You see, not having a crack isn't acceptable at other clubs. Why is it excusable at Melbourne? And there are genuinely times when our club just puts the queue in the rack and gives up. It's blatantly obvious. I just don't understand why so many are willing to excuse it.

The win/loss column isn't the start and end of it for me. All I want is to be able to go to the football knowing that my team will exhaust every avenue to try and win. I still don't get that feeling. 

[Gator 17,357]

Hawthorn joined the VFL in 1925 and were the competition's easy beats for the next 30 years.  They didn't win a game in 1950 and even in 1953 won the spoon.  They didn't play their first final until 1957 - 32 years without making the finals.  They gradually improved from playing finals to a first flag in 1961.

My point ?  Every culture can change no matter how bad the past with the right people in charge.  I happen to believe we now have the right people at the club and a very talented young list. 

Edited July 21, 2016 by ProDee

[Sir Why You Little 37,039]

20 minutes ago, ProDee said:

Hawthorn joined the VFL in 1925 and were the competition's easy beats for the next 30 years.  They didn't win a game in 1950 and even in 1953 won the spoon.  They didn't play their first final until 1957 - 32 years without making the finals.  They gradually improved from this first year playing finals to a flag in 1961.

My point ?  Every culture can change no mattet how bad the past with the right people in charge.  I happen to believe we now have the right people at the club and a very talented young list. 

We live in hope...

[old dee 23,791]

43 minutes ago, ProDee said:

Hawthorn joined the VFL in 1925 and were the competition's easy beats for the next 30 years.  They didn't win a game in 1950 and even in 1953 won the spoon.  They didn't play their first final until 1957 - 32 years without making the finals.  They gradually improved from this first year playing finals to a flag in 1961.

My point ?  Every culture can change no mattet how bad the past with the right people in charge.  I happen to believe we now have the right people at the club and a very talented young list. 

We all hope that PD but right now i suggest no one really knows.

 

[Gator 17,357]

32 minutes ago, old dee said:

We all hope that PD but right now i suggest no one really knows.

 

No, we don't.

Imo, which is obviously shared by most, players don't usually start impacting games until they've played about 60 themselves.  Here's our top ten players with less than 60 games to their name:

Hogan, Gawn, Petracca, Oliver, Brayshaw, Salem, Hunt, Stretch, Kent, and Harmes  

All of these players would be expected to play 100+ games and outside of the Giants I doubt any other club has the same concentration of talent emerging.  Gawn is 24, but still under 60, while Tyson and Viney, who haven't been included, are yet to reach their peak and have only just reached 60.  There's also Frost, who I like in defence, Oscar and Weideman / Hulett.

I know we've had false dawns, but for me there's more meat on the bones and compelling evidence that this young group has demonstrated what others haven't.  And it's reflected in results.  We've fielded the youngest and least experienced team more often than any other team in the competition this year.

While I understand the lack of patience, I'm very comfortable with the list that's being developed and look forward to the bulk of them coming through at the same time, which is important also.

[Nasher 33,616]

While I have some sympathy for people who have been waiting a long time for any kind of success, I find the I've been waiting 50 years for a flag! argument is a bit like complaining that you've bought a ticket in the last 1000 lotteries, and because of that, you should/deserve to win the jackpot this time.  False dawns, disappointment at previous failed attempts, and your ever diminishing patience don't change the fact that these things take time, especially when coming from where we have. Nor do they change the fact that this time looks very promising, for the reasons outlined by ProDee above.  

[stuie 7,374]

2 minutes ago, Nasher said:

While I have some sympathy for people who have been waiting a long time for any kind of success, I find the I've been waiting 50 years for a flag! argument is a bit like complaining that you've bought a ticket in the last 1000 lotteries, and because of that, you should/deserve to win the jackpot this time.  False dawns, disappointment at previous failed attempts, and your ever diminishing patience don't change the fact that these things take time, especially when coming from where we have. Nor do they change the fact that this time looks very promising, for the reasons outlined by ProDee above.  

Bit harsh I reckon. If you've been a supporter for 50 years you're not exactly looking for a quick fix like the lottery, you've stuck it out through some truly horrible times despite the fact you've never seen the one thing you want to see. A flag.

Seems harsh to say someone who's been a supporter for that long expects quick success all of a sudden.

Think everyone would know deep down we've got some good building blocks there, but geez you can't begrudge supporters of 5 decades some expectation that the club will finally deliver.