Major Shortcomings still unresolved

[SPC 3,549]

I think that a few have hit the nail on the head, with the issue of leg speed. Nathan Jones needs to be move to another position along with Vince. Tyson and Viney are locked in for the midfield, but need one really quick ball winner to change the dynamic.

Really need Salem, Stretch to develop quickly as they are both very critical to our game plan.

Edited July 18, 2016 by SPC

[jackaub 1,402]

20 minutes ago, 13thFlagIsComing said:

All the teams that beat us at Etihad beat us by doing one thing... run and spread + switching across the ground from half back.

If you look at the amount of times the ball for example was in our forward line about 30 m out towards the pocket and the Saints won possession...they got on their bikes and switched the play to the opposite side of the ground as they knew their leg speed would beat us every time. The Doggies did it time after time last year when we lost by 100+

So whilst we go chasing the players across the ground one or two Saints ran back towards the goal, one peeled off at their half forward line as the link man and one kept floating towards goal...usually we ended up as a one on two and we were caught in the middle.

Oh and another thing...

It didn't help that our corridor centric mentality made us centre the ball with a risky 30m kick rather than kick down the line to a contest. How many times have we witnessed it over the years?

For the love of God MFC coaching staff...direct your players NOT TO KICK INTO THE CORRIDOR AT ETIHAD PAST HALF BACK - GO DOWN THE LINE!!

 

21 minutes ago, 13thFlagIsComing said:

All the teams that beat us at Etihad beat us by doing one thing... run and spread + switching across the ground from half back.

If you look at the amount of times the ball for example was in our forward line about 30 m out towards the pocket and the Saints won possession...they got on their bikes and switched the play to the opposite side of the ground as they knew their leg speed would beat us every time. The Doggies did it time after time last year when we lost by 100+

So whilst we go chasing the players across the ground one or two Saints ran back towards the goal, one peeled off at their half forward line as the link man and one kept floating towards goal...usually we ended up as a one on two and we were caught in the middle.

Oh and another thing...

It didn't help that our corridor centric mentality made us centre the ball with a risky 30m kick rather than kick down the line to a contest. How many times have we witnessed it over the years?

For the love of God MFC coaching staff...direct your players NOT TO KICK INTO THE CORRIDOR AT ETIHAD PAST HALF BACK - GO DOWN THE LINE!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You would think they would get it by now

Agree with an earlier post

We are a very dumb football team

 

 

 

 

[Cheap Seats 3,310]

This thread has identified our major weakness - leg speed/outside run

If you look at all our losses this year I reckon you'll find we were beaten by teams who were able to exploit our lack of run and speed.

Saints & Port are both front runners - what I mean by that is they put pressure on up the field & create turnovers and flood forward. Their quick smalls and mids allow them to do this. And we got smashed every time we play them because unless we can keep the game contested the over run us literally and our boys can't keep up.

Bombers same tactic

Dogs, Hawks, Crows all better on the outside then us, all beat us with better spread.

Its our number one issue going in to 2017. If we really want to improve as a club - we need outside run. So slow one dimensional players are a liability unless we can keep the game contested (aka swans 2004)

I am not upset or calling for heads just trying to add to the debate - Its very clear it's our biggest weakness.

Our mids are a little one dimensional - Viney and Tyson aren't slow but they aren't fast either. Its the biggest challenge for our coaching group at the moment.

Our list has a lot of talent - there is no doubt, but the majority are young kids who can't compete every week for 120 mins. It has been really impressive what they have achieved so far this year, but we won't win too many more games unless we can fix the run and spread in our game.

[Straight Sets Simon 23,113]

The decision making (or lack thereof) when we take a mark or get a free kick is still baffling to me, we manage to turn a kick under no pressure to one of the the most stressful experiences imaginable.

[Sir Why You Little 37,033]

From useless to Mediocre is where The Club is at. People on here have said "Oh the Players weren't "on" yesterday..."

EXCUSE ME. A spot in the 8 was still available yesterday. 

When does this list get it?

After 3 years of Roosy The MFC soft underbelly still exists deep beneath the floor boards

Our leaders were pathetic at doing what they are paid to do. 

This year has been a HUGE Fail

Who cares if we beat Carlscum or GC $un$

dead rubbers

[stuie 7,374]

48 minutes ago, Wiseblood said:

If you compare our side in 2013 and how we played to the 2016 side and how we play then it's clear we have improved.  If you can't see it then you are blind.

I don't think anyone is saying we haven't improved, I think the question is have we improved enough this year after last year.

So far, for me, the answer is no.

 

[KLV 1,765]

I think, this sums up why I'm so unimpressed with yesterday's effort.

From www.afl.com.au,

"Membrey only managed one game with the Swans after being drafted with pick No.46 in the 2012 NAB AFL Draft. He will join the Saints as a delisted free agent at the end of the 2014 season".

Stats from yesterday's game:

Hogan: 1 goal, 2 behinds, 10 disposals, effort and attitude- unacceptable

Membrey: 4 goals 2 behinds, 16 disposals, effort and attitude 100%

Edited July 18, 2016 by KLV

[Older demon 2,741]

The major shortcoming is that this year 3 sometimes 4 first year players are playing Hunt, Petracca, Wagner and Oscar and Harmes may as well be. What has happened to the players developed in the 2 previous years? Talk about 1 step forward 2 steps back in some instances. OK year 1 Roos had a very ordinary list, in year 2 some improvements but where are those players this year? There has been yet again an influx of rookies.

We still lack key position players up the middle i.e. CHB & CHF who can straighten up and maintain that corridor football we would like to play. mentioned earlier is spread and movement up the flanks, a good point, but to do so you need good ball handling and kicking skills. The teams that make this work hit targets and don't fumble. The current backline do not have a lot of good kicks.

Missing in action this year for a variety of reasons when we really needed them to step up have been Salem, Dawes, Lumumba, Dunn, Garland, Pederson and to a lesser extent Kennedy-Harris. Compare with the Saints. Their core of Riewoldt, Montagna, Dempster, Ermitage and Steven shows just where our deficiencies are and that is in our senior group. We have nowhere near the class in our senior group they have.

It is almost like we have gone back to square 1 with a rebuild in year 3.

Roos himself has admitted that in the 3 years of his tenure the team is getting younger not older and we still have no idea who our best 22 is and what the future holds for the likes of Dawes, Lumumba and co.

We are a long way of the pace atm

[Mach5 4,767]

14 minutes ago, Clint Bizkit said:

The decision making (or lack thereof) when we take a mark or get a free kick is still baffling to me, we manage to turn a kick under no pressure to one of the the most stressful experiences imaginable.

Agree.

You can see it unfolding before your eyes: quick obvious option ignored out of caution or simply unseen... wheel back to settle and look for a "good" option... none available... waiting for the never-coming perfect option as opposition defensive structures plug gaps... inevitable turnover.

[The Stigga 1,094]

Not sure we will beat Cartlon.

GC probably the only win coming up, West Coast away, Hawthorn, Port and Geelong away.

8 wins for the year...

Edited July 18, 2016 by The Stigga

[praha 11,240]

1 hour ago, 13thFlagIsComing said:

All the teams that beat us at Etihad beat us by doing one thing... run and spread + switching across the ground from half back.

If you look at the amount of times the ball for example was in our forward line about 30 m out towards the pocket and the Saints won possession...they got on their bikes and switched the play to the opposite side of the ground as they knew their leg speed would beat us every time. The Doggies did it time after time last year when we lost by 100+

So whilst we go chasing the players across the ground one or two Saints ran back towards the goal, one peeled off at their half forward line as the link man and one kept floating towards goal...usually we ended up as a one on two and we were caught in the middle.

Oh and another thing...

It didn't help that our corridor centric mentality made us centre the ball with a risky 30m kick rather than kick down the line to a contest. How many times have we witnessed it over the years?

For the love of God MFC coaching staff...direct your players NOT TO KICK INTO THE CORRIDOR AT ETIHAD PAST HALF BACK - GO DOWN THE LINE!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't think it's a coaching issue. We played them well in the first quarter, spread hard, moved the ball efficiently and played confidently. The Saints adjusted in the second and gained momentum. 

As for kicking into the corridor, again, it's not a coaching issue. The players constantly underestimated the pressure and misjudged the kicks and pressure on countless occasions. When we did go down the corridor and actually found space, we went forward quickly. Granted, you don't *need* to go down the corridor on Etihad in the same way you do on the MCG, but it's mindboggling to see players kick or handball 15-20 meters to teammates who would be put under immediate pressure. We tried to play it on our terms but ultimately the players constantly played directly in the Saints' hands. Nate Jones made the same mistake, guys like McDonald, Jetta, Grimes all made the same mistake. Hospital handpasses to teammates who were either immediately tackled, or strolled away in second gear completely lost on the fact that the Saints play a high-pressure game and will always have someone nearby. Whenever we did hold possession, it was always poor decision making and skills that caused a turnover. On top of that, our midfielders were absolutely destroyed on the spread and simply didn't run both ways.

We lost yesterday because of lazy football. The Saints thrive on that and exploit the narrowness of Etihad. I don't know what the coaching staff could have done to drill home to the players that they can't play as they do on the MCG. As Roos said during the presser, there is ZERO margin for error on Etihad. 

I felt that players let each other down far too often. In one instance when Brayshaw got caught, everyone on here was hounding Gus for not getting rid of the ball. The reality is that McDonald had a clear path to kick down the line, or into the corridor where Jetta and White were clear by 20-30 meters. Instead, he gave in to the Saints' pressure, gave a hospital handpass to Brayshaw who was 10 meters directly ahead of him, and Brayshaw, thinking he was clear because why else would a teammate handball to you when they're so close, turned around and looked for an option, only to get buried into the ground. McDonald let him down. TMac also didn't bother to shepard away the guy that was on the mark. As soon as Brayshaw saw him running towards him, he panicked and then got caught. Instances like that happened all too often, and it wasn't the inexperienced guys causing it.

We still have a major gap in experience, and too many players that don't quite know how to respond to pressure like that. That is where guys like Vince, Jones, McDonald, Jetta, even Garlett, M.Jones, Grimes etc should be directing traffic and controlling the play. Instead, every single one of them played like deers in headlines. We were let down by that core group, who always seemed to set the tone for big patches of poor play.

Edited July 18, 2016 by praha

[stuie 7,374]

5 minutes ago, demondame said:

I think, this sums up why I'm so unimpressed with yesterday's effort.

From www.afl.com.au,

"Membrey only managed one game with the Swans after being drafted with pick No.46 in the 2012 NAB AFL Draft. He will join the Saints as a delisted free agent at the end of the 2014 season".

Stats from yesterday's game:

Hogan: 1 goal, 2 behinds, 10 disposals, effort and attitude- unacceptable

Membrey: 4 goals 2 behinds, 16 disposals, effort and attitude 100%

Why focus on Hogan? He's a kid. He also landed square on his coccyx in the second quarter which is what kept him out for his entire first year.

He wasn't the problem yesterday. He had a poor game, but he's not the guy(s) who should wear the blame.

 

[DeeZee 7,378]

I think we have improved from a deplorable team to an ok team.

Still wouldnt rate us as a good team yet as we keep having those bad losses to teams like Essendon and St Kilda.

Long way to go in my opinion.

[DV8 2,271]

2 hours ago, stuie said:

The worst part for me is Roos hasn't improved us enough. The improvement that has happened has done so on the back of Taylor's excellent recruiting work, so we've gotten slightly better because the list is better, not because we are a better team due to the coaching.

Roos has steadied the ship, but after 3 years I would have expected that ship to at least have left port. Hasn't happened.

 

3 seasons is not enough time to fix a soft club.

He has only just sifted the list, & helped the players become happy again.  We have recruited well, & from the engine room first.  so the base layers of all departments are in place, & now we have entered the timeframe where we start to add the finer points (skills & players) to those base layers. 

You don't just go shopping & buy all these parts thrown them up in the air & things land where they ought.

This club has been slowly drifting off line since Swooper left.  That is a long time off course, & a mental mess that can't be fixed overnight.

Roos understands this side of things & is why we need him to stick around advising.

[GCDee 3,199]

I think its time to call for calm... I think some posters have very short memories as to just how bad we were pre Roos. He has been FANTASTIC for the club. Transferring us from being the laughing stock of the AFL to being a mid ladder team fighting tooth and nail for a spot in the 8. We have one of the youngest lists in the league (if not the youngest) and we are better than 7 teams this year. Providing we keep our team together we will improve again next year.

We need to pick up a few cogs in this draft period... get rid of the rest of the dead wood on the list and work hard over summer and we will make finals next year.

 

[stuie 7,374]

3 minutes ago, GCDee said:

I think its time to call for calm... I think some posters have very short memories as to just how bad we were pre Roos. He has been FANTASTIC for the club. Transferring us from being the laughing stock of the AFL to being a mid ladder team fighting tooth and nail for a spot in the 8. We have one of the youngest lists in the league (if not the youngest) and we are better than 7 teams this year. Providing we keep our team together we will improve again next year.

We need to pick up a few cogs in this draft period... get rid of the rest of the dead wood on the list and work hard over summer and we will make finals next year.

 

No one is questioning improvement or forgetting how bad we were, I think most of us that are unhappy are unhappy about the lack of improvement between 2015 and 2016.

 

[GCDee 3,199]

8 minutes ago, stuie said:

No one is questioning improvement or forgetting how bad we were, I think most of us that are unhappy are unhappy about the lack of improvement between 2015 and 2016.

 

Considering we finished on 7 wins and 77% last year and we are currently sitting on 7 wins and over 100% this year with still 6 games to go suggests the improvement had been pretty good between the two years. On top of that we have blooded heaps of young and new talent, oliver, wagner and hunt just to name a few and we are now appropriatly developing players in the 2nds (weed and hulett) for further improvement next year.

I think it has been a highly successful year and who honeslty thought we were going to make finals this year? 

I agree it sucks we cant beat the saints... a team on paper we look to have covered and appear to be futher advanced in development but I think there is a lot of over reaction here and unrealistic expectations.

 

[ArtificialWisdom 4,045]

5 minutes ago, stuie said:

No one is questioning improvement or forgetting how bad we were, I think most of us that are unhappy are unhappy about the lack of improvement between 2015 and 2016.

 

lack of improvement? This is out best year in a decade! No its not finals material but we are gonna finish in a log jam of teams a few games outside the 8. We are well placed to take a spot next year but we were never going to make it this year despite the fact we all wanted to dream. Can someone tell me the last time we were sitting with a percentage above 100 come round 18? it must of been a bloody long time ago. Aside from a handfull of games we have been there abouts comming to the final qtr. We lack class and outside run. Add those and we might just start pinch 3 or 4 more games. And suddenly we are right in the mix to finish 7/8th. 

[Cheap Seats 3,310]

13 minutes ago, stuie said:

No one is questioning improvement or forgetting how bad we were, I think most of us that are unhappy are unhappy about the lack of improvement between 2015 and 2016.

 

The sad reality is the improvement has to come from our kids. We don't have the senior talent to step up again in 2016.

I know it's not what ppl want to hear but bringing in kids and we've brought in a lot, it's going to take 24-36 months before these kids have AFL bodies and can step up.

We've seen guys like Viney,, Hogan & Gawn step up this year. They've played what 40 - 50 games ave each??

We need kids like Brayshaw, Trac, Ollie, Stretch, Hunt, Wagner, Kent etc all to get to the same stage before we see real improvement. Which is what makes our list so exciting.

 

I do hear what you're saying though it would be nice to have the whole team step up and finally kick a few more hoo doos. Damn I was upset yesterday. But the reality is we are a young side with a lot of Development to do

[stuie 7,374]

2 minutes ago, GCDee said:

Considering we finished on 7 wins and 77% last year and we are currently sitting on 7 wins and over 100% this year with still 6 games to go suggests the improvement had been pretty good between the two years. On top of that we have blooded heaps of young and new talent, oliver, wagner and hunt just to name a few and we are now appropriatly developing players in the 2nds (weed and hulett) for further improvement next year.

I think it has been a highly successful year and who honeslty thought we were going to make finals this year? 

I agree it sucks we cant beat the saints... a team on paper we look to have covered and appear to be futher advanced in development but I think there is a lot of over reaction here and unrealistic expectations.

 

Just now, ArtificialWisdom said:

lack of improvement? This is out best year in a decade! No its not finals material but we are gonna finish in a log jam of teams a few games outside the 8. We are well placed to take a spot next year but we were never going to make it this year despite the fact we all wanted to dream. Can someone tell me the last time we were sitting with a percentage above 100 come round 18? it must of been a bloody long time ago. Aside from a handfull of games we have been there abouts comming to the final qtr. We lack class and outside run. Add those and we might just start pinch 3 or 4 more games. And suddenly we are right in the mix to finish 7/8th. 

I did the full season ladder predictor at the start of the year. I was really conservative about it and had us ending up 10th on 10 wins. Considering our CEO expected finals this year, I don't think finishing 10th was unrealistic at all. And don't even start with the "alternative ladders", wins and losses are all that matter in the end.

We won't get anywhere near 10th, and will be lucky to win one more.

It's not ENOUGH improvement from last year.

[Cheap Seats 3,310]

2 minutes ago, ArtificialWisdom said:

lack of improvement? This is out best year in a decade! No its not finals material but we are gonna finish in a log jam of teams a few games outside the 8. We are well placed to take a spot next year but we were never going to make it this year despite the fact we all wanted to dream. Can someone tell me the last time we were sitting with a percentage above 100 come round 18? it must of been a bloody long time ago. Aside from a handfull of games we have been there abouts comming to the final qtr. We lack class and outside run. Add those and we might just start pinch 3 or 4 more games. And suddenly we are right in the mix to finish 7/8th. 

If we were good enough to pull off a few close calls

Norf, Crows and Bombers (I know it wasn't close but we should have knocked them over)... We'd be all really happy right now (well probably not as we'd be more upset in losing to the Aints again).

[stuie 7,374]

2 minutes ago, Unleash Hell said:

The sad reality is the improvement has to come from our kids. We don't have the senior talent to step up again in 2016.

I know it's not what ppl want to hear but bringing in kids and we've brought in a lot, it's going to take 24-36 months before these kids have AFL bodies and can step up.

We've seen guys like Viney,, Hogan & Gawn step up this year. They've played what 40 - 50 games ave each??

We need kids like Brayshaw, Trac, Ollie, Stretch, Hunt, Wagner, Kent etc all to get to the same stage before we see real improvement. Which is what makes our list so exciting.

 

I do hear what you're saying though it would be nice to have the whole team step up and finally kick a few more hoo doos. Damn I was upset yesterday. But the reality is we are a young side with a lot of Development to do

My problem though is that IS where the improvement has come from. It's come from the kids, from the extra talent we've added in, not from Roos turning around the mindset of the group and coaching us to be better. We've improved from the talent we've added, not (enough) from the coaching.

 

[Cheap Seats 3,310]

3 minutes ago, stuie said:

My problem though is that IS where the improvement has come from. It's come from the kids, from the extra talent we've added in, not from Roos turning around the mindset of the group and coaching us to be better. We've improved from the talent we've added, not (enough) from the coaching.

 

I am not quite sure I agree with you there.

I think you're just pointing out how bad our list was.... Who exactly should have played that would have changed the result yesterday?

We needed pace and class yesterday, stretch is the only one I can think of off the top of my head who wasn't playing that offers that. The rest are slow or old or both.

 

 

[ArtificialWisdom 4,045]

3 minutes ago, Unleash Hell said:

If we were good enough to pull off a few close calls

Norf, Crows and Bombers (I know it wasn't close but we should have knocked them over)... We'd be all really happy right now (well probably not as we'd be more upset in losing to the Aints again).

Could argue Hawthorn is in that bracket to was a good effort that game too given they are the best side of the era. Close calls are frustrating but they show improvement. I dont remeber the last time i went home from a hawthorn game and thought to myself "If we did a few more things right we could have won that" Usually it is more like "If we did a few more things right we could have kept it under 10 goals". Close calls mean we are getting better whether people want to believe it or not. In 2/3 years time a close call isnt going to be acceptable but right now its enough to provide hope for the future.

[stuie 7,374]

1 minute ago, Unleash Hell said:

I am not quite sure I agree with you there.

I think you're just pointing out how bad our list was.... Who exactly should have played that would have changed the result yesterday?

We needed pace and class yesterday, stretch is the only one I can think of off the top of my head who wasn't playing that offers that. The rest are slow or old or both.

I've done the whole changes/fresh legs thing about yesterday's game to death in other threads, so I won't start it all again.

All I'll say is we would have been far better off playing less talented players who had fresh legs and the hunger to compete thean players who weren't fit and players who were too tired to execute properly.