Post match Discussion "Fire away"

[Gator 17,481]

7 minutes ago, chook fowler said:

It's not a matter of liking, but respect. I don't think a lot of players liked Matthews or many of the other great coaches because they often have to be told what they don't want to hear. Stuff them they are highly paid professionals and should start to act as such.

If you don't like someone I'm not sure you have a tonne of respect. 

There's usually a reason a collective group doesn't like someone. 

The Bulldogs players didn't like McCartney.  How do you think they're responding to Beveridge, who they do like ?

[dee-luded 2,959]

12 hours ago, Redleg said:

Don't let him off so easily. Unless he was injured and he did go back into the rooms at quarter time, he was pathetic today, in all facets of the game of football.

He has immense talent, but today showed no effort.

Hogan has been 'off' the whole pre-season so far. he is distracted shown by his lacking confidence & his stutter run-up showing itself in the form of nerves.  His is not a mind that is focused 100% on the games.

 

Poor kid has too big an issue in front of him & is probably tearing him in half inside.    

Not good for such a young kid to have that pressure.

 

12 hours ago, monoccular said:

I must say I am very [censored] off by Roos' presser.  Reminded me of the Neeld "didn't see it coming" ones.

"Roos said a number of young Demons, including Jack Viney, Angus Brayshaw, Jesse Hogan and Clayton Oliver, looked tired throughout the day, but said there was another batch of players he thought probably underestimated the Dons."

Well, didums.  Some of our guys were tired in round 2!  Less tired than dad's army who had a truncated preseason and a bunch of recruits?  Well, Paul, maybe they need to be managed better!  Tired at round 2!!  FCS how will they be, presuming MFC is still in existence, by round 22?

And as for the batch who underestimated the opposition - well name them, shame them, and send them to Casey for a month.  Unacceptable.  

You and your team have betrayed the trust of the supporter base, and it will be extraordinarily hard to regain it in your final year.  It would takes some extraordinary surprise performances against the likes of Hawthorn, Geelong, West Coast and Freo, but how about starting with bloody Norf next week.

 

Roosy's trying to let us know that the lead group probably played their game during the week in their heads,  & so are mentally & emotionally spent from this.  Leaders trying to force things mentally to happen during the week will tire them. 

Others just too inexperienced to know how to prepare properly  & not get sucked in to being overly optimistic.

[Samael 560]

17 hours ago, Diamond said:

Hogan's mind is clearly elsewhere. Maybe he's thinking of the millions he'll earn back home in the west. Reminds me of Scully, Howe, Frawley and their efforts in their last years with us. Pathetic. Nobody wants to stay with our hopeless team.

Hogan has serious issues in discipline. He is like the 5 year old that does not get his way chucks the toys out of the sandpit and fumes. I would not pick him this week for discipline and let him know that is why. In a NAB cup game he missed a mark and instead of chasing he sat on the ground thumping his fist into it whilst the opposition player took it away. He should have been dragged then but he was left on the ground. Poor coaching in my opinion.

[Adam The God 30,430]

2 hours ago, Redleg said:

BTW, did anyone else notice that a number of times Bugg or Jetta were one out against Daniher and the obvious happened.

Garland or T Mac went forward with the flow of the ball, while Daniher would go into the middle and then be picked up by a mid and would then run back into the forward line, with a mid or Jetta or Bugg on him. You could see it happening. 

The two loose players on the wing, unmanned the whole day started the rot.

I'll say it again, the Coaching box was worse than the players yesterday.

It's not like McDonald or Garland provided anything up the ground either. Pretty much no rebound, so why the hell were they playing off Daniher? Ineffective and unaccountable. That's just unacceptable any way you spin it.

[doc roet 1,289]

1 minute ago, Samael said:

Hogan has serious issues in discipline. He is like the 5 year old that does not get his way chucks the toys out of the sandpit and fumes. I would not pick him this week for discipline and let him know that is why. In a NAB cup game he missed a mark and instead of chasing he sat on the ground thumping his fist into it whilst the opposition player took it away. He should have been dragged then but he was left on the ground. Poor coaching in my opinion.

And Roos smirking in the box.

[Forest Demon 4,681]

I don't think it is an exaggeration that today was the worst loss of the last decade.

186 was against a dominant side, and we were a rabble, both as a team and as a club.

Today, we were all under the impression we had turned a corner, we went in a big favourites, a chance to go 2 and 0, against a cobbled together team of misfits and kids. We thought we had a team of "competitors" and we were playing a "fast brand of footy". Yesterday was a stark realisation that we are far from out of the woods yet.

[Slartibartfast 17,635]

16 hours ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Nothing but smartass comment as usual.

Add something worthy to the discussion for once 'Baghdad Bob'

Not in the [censored] mood to put up with your rubbish

I think the discussion on what went wrong yesterday is largely on the wrong track.  We have some very good players but yesterday most of them didn't play well.  Vince, Jones, Kennedy, Tyson and if you're to believe Roosy Lumumba probably got a pass mark.  So what went wrong?  Why would 17 or so players play so far below their best and all do it on the one day?

I watched yesterday as Essendon beat us to the ball and beat us in the spread.  Countless times you'd see them with the ball on one side of the ground and from a switch you'd see a line of them lining up to take the ball along the fat side.  We were zoning down the thin sided nowhere to be .  And it happened all day. You could call it well before it happened.

Many here are suggesting that Roos' game plan is inadequate and we need to go back to Goodwin's plan.  Frankly I think it's preposterous to suggest that Roos has reverted to his game plan.  The game plan hasn't changed from preseason but our ability to implement it has.  Or perhaps we just don't understand it, perhaps we can't do it or perhaps it's no good. Or perhaps the messenger has changed and that has an impact.  I suggested during preseason that the messanger shouldn't change and got not one dot of support but interestingly now many are suggesting it should.  Frankly I'm not even sure that's the problem and unless you are inside the club it's not possible to know.  But it should be looked at.

You'd also need to look at training.  To suggest our players looked tired was correct but why would that be so?  Bar Brayshaw I think all had a week off before the first game.  How could they be tired?  Did the FD stuff up their training before the first game and then again midweek so they were spent on Saturday before they started.  What did the coaching staff do to prepare them for the match?  All those things come into it.  Why does Roos say we focused on fitness and then go and play AVB who hadn't trained fully until the last session before the GWS match after being injured in the NAB Footscray match?  How was he fitter than others?  How does Grimes not get a look in but Lumumba does when Grimes is fit and frankly makes far less mistakes than H and is twice as brave.  

Hogan and Watts were disappointing but I suspect Watts was hampered by his cork from last week and Hogan has an ankle that stopped him running hard.  He was in the rooms for sometime after the quarter time break and was probably getting a jab.

The trouble is we can't answer most of these questions so it's easier to blame the players because they are the ones we can see.  When we played GWS we had a handful of players that didn't perform, that's pretty normal in any team.  Yesterday we had about 17.  Not only that we didn't seem to know what to do or how to play.  We've stopped switching, we've stopped running and we lack confidence.  How does that happen after a full preseason and a successful series of games to date.

I don't know but the buck stops with Roos and he needs to find the answers.  Mike Sheehan stepped in for Robbo on 360 last year and when talking to Roos asked why our starts were so poor and the players so unprepared to "go" from the bounce.  Roos sat silent for about 5 seconds with no answer until Buckley got him out of a hole.  He hasn't found the answer over the off season.

I think it's possible Jackson and Mahoney have a problem.  We live in interesting times. 

[dee-luded 2,959]

1 hour ago, Nasher said:

The problem is there's no point asking Roos the hard questions because he can't really be put under any pressure. His role all along has been quality builder  and heat taker. The problem we have now is we're ready to take the next step with our new coach, but for this season we've still got the coach whose brief basically allows him to ignore or shrug off poor performances. 

Goodwin should be in command of the side, but he's not so I think we're just going to have to live with it.

..... disagree,  we have rebuilt the list mostly,  but that does not mean we are ready to take Ninthmonds position on the ladder.

It just means we can start to slowly form the regular group of players this first half of season who can become the framework on our team going ahead from the start of this season.  In 5 or 6 weeks will will have our best potential side in. 

When this occurs we will start to learn how to apply our learned team plan skills in form, out on the arenas.   But this transition will take time to become intuitive across the whole side.  Especially to the the older heads who have seen half a dozen different coaches & assistants in their short time at this club.   =   confusion of methods.

 

Roosy's tenure is to fix the culture,  the list,  & the football minds,  of those who remain,  from the time he started. 

 

Goody's not ready to take over headless chooks just yet....  he'll inherit a healthy club,  which isn't there yet.

[Adam The God 30,430]

1 hour ago, DeeMfc said:

Roos wanted an arm wrestle with his old nemesis Worsfold. He lost. We saw no change up in the last quarter as we did last week. In fact changes should have been made from quarter time. It was a battle of egos.....

Add that to the above post by chook fowler and we have a recipe for disaster. 

Even though they were coached and played better the fact is we should have still won that game. Thank [censored] we scraped in last week or we'd be 0-2. 

This is exactly what I think happened.

[Gator 17,481]

7 minutes ago, Baghdad Bob said:

I suggested during preseason that the messanger shouldn't change and got not one dot of support but interestingly now many are suggesting it should. 

I thought I agreed...

Very incisive post, as usual. 

Edited April 3, 2016 by ProDee

[Samael 560]

58 minutes ago, ENYAW said:

As I have said before,you cannot judge how a team is giong to preform in the "real" season based on NAB up matches,yet some people including Roos swear by it. Based on our pathetic loss it is about time the coach stops telling everyone we had one bad week but prior to that we had four good weeks. No premiership points for NAB cup matches or have I been misinformed !!!!! 

You are dead right. I am watching the Bulldogs  game and thinking back to the NAB cup game. We would not have gotten within 5 goals of them if the Bulldogs team of last night were playing in the NAB game. We got sucked in by the results and did not give those game their true weight. Practice matches only. 

[Adam The God 30,430]

57 minutes ago, ProDee said:

Look, I've heard enough to know that the players (in the main) don't like Roos, but love Goodwin.

How much difference does this make on GameDay and, more generally, 2016 ?  I have no idea.  

But I suspect it makes "some" difference. 

I said it earlier in this thread. I suspect they like Goodwin because he treats them as mates and they dislike Roos because he tells them some hard truths. I'm concerned by some of these murmurings. It could spell trouble for Goodwin's reign.

[Barney Rubble 1,576]

Roos is a premiership coach, because he had Leo Barry.

Otherwise he would have been another coodabeen

[Slartibartfast 17,635]

5 minutes ago, Barney Rubble said:

Roos is a premiership coach, because he had Leo Barry.

Otherwise he would have been another coodabeen

Roos is a premiership coach because the tribunal let Barry Hall off.  He may well have been a double premiership coach had WCE not been running on ice in 2006.

[Adam The God 30,430]

52 minutes ago, Mickey 'O' said:

While I understand that the majority of the talk will be about essendon's win, does anyone else think that the club and coaches are getting off easily when it comes to the media? I really want them to come out and absolutely blast us, but they just don't care. 

Would it make any difference?

We still don't have the respect of the footballing community. As far as they're concerned this is just another typical Melbourne capitulation. And they'd be right.

[Slartibartfast 17,635]

13 minutes ago, ProDee said:

I thought I agreed...

Very incisive post, as usual. 

Yes, you did.  Should have mentioned it.

[Optimus D 283]

Another missed opportunity by the MFC and the list of concerns grows.

Have we got a sulking prima donna in Hogan? When he kicked his goal in the last quarter the attitude was ho um thanks for kicking it to me boys. Whilst down the other end Daniher slots one and shows excitement and revs ups his team. Also has  he got a roving commission to wander all over the ground, forward to back at his own liking? He is paid to kick goals not seek possession in the back half.

Demonland should start a book on Tom Mac Donald for the season as to how many goals he is going to contribute to the opposition for 2016. His lack of awareness around he ball is appalling and is inconsistent in his decision making particular when he has time to think.

Why were the bummers backs allowed to switch the ball with such ease and let their players run in to form with hard running and easy possession. Coaching response poor, maybe they were tired like their players.

Its going to be an interesting response next week against North

 

 

[dee-luded 2,959]

1 hour ago, Deecisive said:

People seem to be inferring that under Roos we play one style and under Goodwin another, I really doubt that is the case. The change in play instituted by Goodwin would be continued under Roos, they are a coaching group that work together to decide. To pin this all on roos and declare it would have been different under Goodwin seems surreal given the pathetic football the players played. Again the game is won on the ground that's where players skill, or lack thereof, players mistakes and heroics occur. we had a lot of the former and non of the latter. That is where the game was lost. The blame should sit squarely on the 22 players on the field who were not accountable for their man or do their job. How many coaching careers has Melbourne destroyed because the players are not up to it. Now everyone is looking for Roos head, then when Goodwin our next saviour is unable to deliver because of the same players who do we blame then, but the coach. Even the best coaches in the world cannot turn a team into winners unless the team is committed to becoming winners and has the talent to support it.

 

 

 

..  actually destroyed coaches & players,  & its not even the young players faults.  if you want the chicken or egg debate. 

It comes back to that ingrained club culture. 

The young players enter a club with a soft avoidance culture,  & they quickly adopt that culture not understanding it,  for what it truly means to them in the long run.  'soooffft'

Its incredibly difficult to remove this culture,  because it infects all at the club,  in its active time....

 

This clubs troubles start with continually undervaluing the dirty work done by hard grafting workers at the bottom of packs,  or minding opponents,   who underpin the whole team.  So every kid wants to be flashy star.   They're the ones who receive the accolades etc.   The squeaky clean flashy types.   & as leaders they never win flags, theses types.

 

We need to diversify and grow our outer fan base to counter that attitude of desiring 'at least one',  who can run rings around his opponent.   Particularly on the members wing.

 

We have to become a broader based club,  with more diverse views & attitudes,  to change this culture that has become so inbred now  it is causing decline,  'in this beast'  we like to call  'the Demons'.

We continue to get petals.

 

This current group of players is on the correct pathway,  but we need to maintain people who understand the culture angles & how to sort them out.

[Gator 17,481]

I appreciate that the modern game is all about rolling structures and that player's roles change within games, however, did anyone hear Tom McDonald's recent interview on the club website ?

He spoke of not being the only player taking Daniher and that other players would have their turns manning him up, including Nev Jetta.

In what world does a defence or gameplan allow your smallest back to take the opposition's tallest ?  I haven't seen the game and maybe Jetta never had that turn and perhaps McDonald was just deflecting the question, but I thought it a strange response.  Especially when the player in question was pivotal to the result a year earlier. 

[Cheesy D. Pun 1,765]

Chin up fellas. She'll be right.

[waynewussell 6,242]

well, I like to read these threads after a win or a loss. I like to get the view from other perspectives. Quite often I am staggered by how far removed from reality some 'supporters' find themselves after an upset. This chatter about Roos and Goodwin having different game plans is hilarious! The suggestion that Roos only won a premiership at Sydney because of one mark is very similar in tone to the description of Hogan's dummy-spit when things don't go his way. The reality is, we didn't play well in a game we were expected to win. That's it! That's all of it! We were, however, ahead and looking likely to win half way through the final stanza. The analysis of why we struggled and why Essendon prevailed is enlightening. The Bombers got up for a game that was earmarked as a line in the sand moment. Our blokes couldn't counter the wave of emotion and intent. Viney doesn't suddenly become a lesser Viney! Oliver doesn't suddenly become an unworthy Rising Star! Gawn doesn't suddenly return to the VFL scrap heap! Roos doesn't suddenly become Mark Neeld! After a fine start to the 2016 season we got set back on our heels. The way we respond will tell us something of our future direction.

[dee-luded 2,959]

45 minutes ago, ProDee said:

If you don't like someone I'm not sure you have a tonne of respect. 

There's usually a reason a collective group doesn't like someone. 

The Bulldogs players didn't like McCartney.  How do you think they're responding to Beveridge, who they do like ?

how do you think they became good footballers at this level,  they were taught by someone renowned for this.   Like him or not,  he would have influenced them a hell of a lot. 

Beveridge is reaping rewards from work done by people like McCartney;  & before him Eade.  Who had many years working on the old soft Bulldog culture & its players. 

Finally the Bulldogs board & admin started to get things right under Eade's time,  & all this builds towards where the bulldogs find themselves now.  Add some quality father sons & draft picks,  & away they go.

....  so , do not underestimate a coach,  especially if he's not liked by some.   see 'slug' Jordan...   he didn't mince words & he made several players into men,  & hardened competitors.

[dazzledavey36 55,365]

11 minutes ago, ProDee said:

I appreciate that the modern game is all about rolling structures and that player's roles change within games, however, did anyone hear Tom McDonald's recent interview on the club website ?

He spoke of not being the only player taking Daniher and that other players would have their turns manning him up, including Nev Jetta.

In what world does a defence or gameplan allow your smallest back to take the opposition's tallest ?  I haven't seen the game and maybe Jetta never had that turn and perhaps McDonald was just deflecting the question, but I thought it a strange response.  Especially when the player in question was pivotal to the result a year earlier. 

I did and shook my head completely. It was cringeworthy.

Even in country footy we dont get away with that [censored].

Whats worse is that at one stage Bugg was manning Daniher while McDonald was guarding space up the field. McDonald paid no respect to Daniher at all throughout the day. 

Down the other end the experience Gwilt kept Hogan under his glove and took him right out the game. 

 

Edited April 3, 2016 by dazzledavey36

[rjay 25,094]

18 hours ago, Rusty Nails said:

We need elite runners off HB who can ALSO hit targets up the field consistently. I'm afraid at present we have none of those. TMac started that rot today with his horrible attempt to switch kick after playing on that didn't make the distance, went straight to the opposition for their first and there was the confidence booster.

The other was Matty's horrible decision to short pass out of the back pocket instead of up the line (after taking his usual Fricken MATTY time to assess that there was nothing on offer to pass too!). After all that time assessing the only percentage play was long up the line but nah. Matty tries the hero kick inside and guess wat. Instead of possibly going into half time with a 2 - 3 goal lead, we go in trailing and Essendrug go in on a high with confidence brewing!

Both NQR players whose decision making/disposal skills are shown up under "regular" match day conditions.

The poor decision was the one to him in the first place...not sure of the player but Tyson was also free inside and he should have been the option.

If we weren't already done by then we were heading that way, we played safe, they played to win...

 

[rjay 25,094]

11 minutes ago, ProDee said:

I appreciate that the modern game is all about rolling structures and that player's roles change within games, however, did anyone hear Tom McDonald's recent interview on the club website ?

He spoke of not being the only player taking Daniher and that other players would have their turns manning him up, including Nev Jetta.

In what world does a defence or gameplan allow your smallest back to take the opposition's tallest ?  I haven't seen the game and maybe Jetta never had that turn and perhaps McDonald was just deflecting the question, but I thought it a strange response.  Especially when the player in question was pivotal to the result a year earlier. 

At one point it was Daniher up against Matt Jones....

Amazingly Matt brought the ball to ground, I think Daniher fluffed the opportunity because he couldn't quite believe the match up.