Some serious questions need to be asked about our supporters and the media

[TGR 1,367]

First point is that progress in the AFL is rarely linear. My prediction of very mild improvement for this year (2015), might be replaced by a prediction of rapid improvement for 2016.

For the dumb SEN blokey football media and football supporters, that can't understand why we can beat Geelong, Collingwood, and Richmond; yet be pulvarised by the Saints, Bulldogs & Carlton, don't really have a deep understanding of football at all. Garry Lyon included.

As I have said here for over 2 months, ignoring the best 2-3 teams in the competition, speed kills us. The bulldog massacre on the quick deck at Etihad just epitomised it. We want to think it is about effort and intensity, but you have to be able to get to an opponent to actually tackle them. Just think about our reliable, mature ball-winners. Jones aint fast. Tyson aint fast. Cross aint fast. Vince aint fast. Gawn as a ruck aint Stef Martin or Nick-Nat. Viney aint slow, but he has been wisely put into a defensive-first gig at this early stage in his career. On the fringes, Toumpas, Trengove etc... aint fast either. To be blunt, we have a serious deficiency of speed where it matters. To highlight a deficiency of effort over this is too easy, too lazy and really doesn't get to the crux of what our problems are.

The other issue is the introversion. I understand why Roos can see the "veil of negativity" throughout the club. But I don't think this is entirely accurate. Any negativity is actually the product of introverts everywhere. Since I have posted on ology from the early 2000s, my mantra has been to the club and its supporters, that ego is not such a bad thing. An ego or a strut, with a little bit behind it, can actually lift many around you, and can blowtorch any "veil of negativity". Look at the story of a young Luke Hodge. With Hawthorn as cellar-dwellers, and Brisbane at or just off the peak of its powers, Jonathon Brown recalls a young Luke Hodge sledging the likes of Brown, Voss, Black and Lappin. The Melbourne Football Club, for whatever reason, has recruited/attracted/retained a plethora of introverts. We had no choice but to choose one as captain for goodness sakes. But not only have are we a collective of introverts, we have actually play like introverts. Go have a look at our run and carry and bouncing stats before this season, and you will find it at Tackers level on a wet boggy day. I applaud the club for getting Garlett and Lumumba as it addresses this in some small way.

All the MFC needs is a bit of speed and a bit of strut. As Lethal says, things aren't as bad as you think. Roos and Co. can talk about culture, and defense first, and consistency. TGR will talk about speed and strut.

The next captain needs to have self-belief. Since the Grimes/Trengove experiment, we have been scared of appointing youth. While I love how Roos has taken the microscope off the next young saviour of the MFC; the leadership needs to exude confidence.

As for speed, why the hell is Billy Stretch in and out of the side? I realise games should be earned, but what is wrong with getting games into players that we urgently need.

As for us supporters, we do need to realise where we have come from. The gold that we have let slip and the trash (recycled short-term players) we have bought in, especially in the Neeld era. For a rudderless on-field club to let two AFL captains go (Wines & Rockliff), and a multi-dimensional mobile tall in Martin can't be erased from thought.

Us supporters think in a dichotomy of black and white. Either Roos is a messiah, or he is yesterday's man. Not too many of us think deep and grey. Lets not forget that Robert Walls called for the head of Paul Roos in June 2005. Three months later, he became a premiership coach; and this goes back to my non-linear argument in relation to progress.

The other thing that us supporters do, is have a crack at journalists that critique the club and/or its coaching. The irony is that those that have had a critical point of view of the MFC for the last 15 years, have been closer to the mark, than those of us inside the club, and those that support the club. It is about time, we objectively take on the critique, than typically playing the man and having a go at Caro and Lloyd etc...

I am sure you over-celebrated the Geelong/Collingwood wins; and I am sure you over-grieved the Carlton loss. Just suck it up, think deep and grey, and as Matthews says, all is not as bad as it seems.

Purest TGR

[Young Blood 2,620]

I agree with parts of this but the most important being that the degree of negativity around this club is increased (especially during weeks like this) by the supporters and the media.

Can I ask what it does for those negative supporters ridicule your club so severely? I was at the game on Saturday and I understand in the moment the high amount of abuse players like Jones was getting was in the heat of the moment. I don't like it but I understand. It is incredibly frustrating to see a team get beaten like that after all this time.

However to continue to put your club down week in and week out on forums like this and emails to our Coach I have to ask purely out of interest. Does it help you blow off steam? Does it make it easier? Do you feel better for it?

Also for those who have no faith in the club and constantly put everyone involved down. Have you thought about joining another club? One that doesn't mean you have to abuse people?

Edited August 25, 2015 by mongrel

[Straight Sets Simon 23,113]

I think that's all fair and reasonable argument, in particular the introvert comment which is why the likes of Garland, Grimes and Howe fill me with little confidence.

The speed is a worry, but good teams can still play quickly without leg speed, however I would hope we are doing everything can to trade for Harley Bennell.

[13thFlagIsComing 542]

The important thing in any organization is the creation of a soul which is based on pride.
George S Patton

[Jesse Christ 2,884]

I miss Kent, there's your pace and swagger right there. We also miss Frost and will be better for the continued development of Vanders and Stretch. I can't wait to see what Petracca has to offer as his break-away pace looks good, plus the swagger.

If we can have a good run with injuries we might improve out of sight next year, thought the same img at the beginning of this year though so won't be holding my breath lol

[TGR 1,367]

I miss Kent, there's your pace and swagger right there. We also miss Frost and will be better for the continued development of Vanders and Stretch. I can't wait to see what Petracca has to offer as his break-away pace looks good, plus the swagger.

If we can have a good run with injuries we might improve out of sight next year, thought the same img at the beginning of this year though so won't be holding my breath lol

Spot on. Great post.

Kent is like a train. Speed plus hitting power and I dare say it potential swagger. Petracca ditto. Frost is that mobile multi-dimensional quick big we need.

[old dee 23,791]

The important thing in any organization is the creation of a soul which is based on pride.

George S Patton

He was known by his men as "Old Blood and Guts"

Our blood and his guts.

[Spirit of 26 261]

I wasn't around (much) during our last successful period of the 50s/early 60s.

My comments refer to the period from late 60s to now.

The MFC has always been a soft option club. We are a nice club. Our supporters are nice (generally), our players are nice. We rarely rock the boat. We follow the trend.

We have a messiah complex. Weather it's bringing Barassi back, or being saved by Gutnick's millions, or being saved by a recent premiership coach.

In the 90's we decided that merging would solve all our problems.

An integrated training, social and administration complex located near the MCG? No way. Can't be done. Merge.

Our blueprint for the future? Merger.

In the early 80's we tried to but a premiership with Moore and Templeton. Unsuccesful.

In the late 00's we thought tanking for priority picks was the way to get success. Win matches? No way. Play to lose - it's the way forward. We'll be playing finals in 3 years.

We went for the assistant coach at a successful club to lead us forward.

We did however, buck the trend on occasion. Northey's "us verses them" mentality that galvanised a young team with talent was a refreshing change. As was Daniher's early tenure as coach.

But through all this we lurched from one administration to another. With little or no succession plan and outrageous strategies that just created white noise and distraction i.e Team Melbourne (anyone remember this fiasco?) and our fascination with China being some sort of panacea to our problems.

We are seen as an establishment club, a club with a proud history but little recent success. A club whose supporters go to the snow and clap politely and say "Go Dees".

Well, so what. I like being associated with a club with nice supporters. I like our heritage. Lets embrace who we are and start to be masters of our own destiny. Stop following what everyone else is doing and start doing what will work for us, on and off the field. By following what is being done today means we will never catch up tomorrow. Everyone else will have moved on.

Stop taking the soft option and stop being followers.

[Young Blood 2,620]

Amen!

[TGR 1,367]

I wasn't around (much) during our last successful period of the 50s/early 60s.

My comments refer to the period from late 60s to now.

The MFC has always been a soft option club. We are a nice club. Our supporters are nice (generally), our players are nice. We rarely rock the boat. We follow the trend.

We have a messiah complex. Weather it's bringing Barassi back, or being saved by Gutnick's millions, or being saved by a recent premiership coach.

In the 90's we decided that merging would solve all our problems.

An integrated training, social and administration complex located near the MCG? No way. Can't be done. Merge.

Our blueprint for the future? Merger.

In the early 80's we tried to but a premiership with Moore and Templeton. Unsuccesful.

In the late 00's we thought tanking for priority picks was the way to get success. Win matches? No way. Play to lose - it's the way forward. We'll be playing finals in 3 years.

We went for the assistant coach at a successful club to lead us forward.

We did however, buck the trend on occasion. Northey's "us verses them" mentality that galvanised a young team with talent was a refreshing change. As was Daniher's early tenure as coach.

But through all this we lurched from one administration to another. With little or no succession plan and outrageous strategies that just created white noise and distraction i.e Team Melbourne (anyone remember this fiasco?) and our fascination with China being some sort of panacea to our problems.

We are seen as an establishment club, a club with a proud history but little recent success. A club whose supporters go to the snow and clap politely and say "Go Dees".

Well, so what. I like being associated with a club with nice supporters. I like our heritage. Lets embrace who we are and start to be masters of our own destiny. Stop following what everyone else is doing and start doing what will work for us, on and off the field. By following what is being done today means we will never catch up tomorrow. Everyone else will have moved on.

Stop taking the soft option and stop being followers.

Love it.

I loved Peter Moore as well. Thought it was bold; but see what you say.

What I love most is "stop taking the soft option".

[rpfc 28,431]

When you say 'Introverts' I think of inertia.

When you say 'ego and strut' I think of confidence and boldness with the footy.

I think it is more important than this lack of speed that we have.

As for the need to think in the Grey - I couldn't agree more.

At one point this season there were people who thought we could win 9 of our last 10 games, and now we have people who would like to remove the coach a year early.

Hopping from one extreme to the other based on the performance of 22 evidently emotionally challenged individuals is ignoring the grey truth.

[old dee 23,791]

I wasn't around (much) during our last successful period of the 50s/early 60s.

My comments refer to the period from late 60s to now.

The MFC has always been a soft option club. We are a nice club. Our supporters are nice (generally), our players are nice. We rarely rock the boat. We follow the trend.

We have a messiah complex. Weather it's bringing Barassi back, or being saved by Gutnick's millions, or being saved by a recent premiership coach.

In the 90's we decided that merging would solve all our problems.

An integrated training, social and administration complex located near the MCG? No way. Can't be done. Merge.

Our blueprint for the future? Merger.

In the early 80's we tried to but a premiership with Moore and Templeton. Unsuccesful.

In the late 00's we thought tanking for priority picks was the way to get success. Win matches? No way. Play to lose - it's the way forward. We'll be playing finals in 3 years.

We went for the assistant coach at a successful club to lead us forward.

We did however, buck the trend on occasion. Northey's "us verses them" mentality that galvanised a young team with talent was a refreshing change. As was Daniher's early tenure as coach.

But through all this we lurched from one administration to another. With little or no succession plan and outrageous strategies that just created white noise and distraction i.e Team Melbourne (anyone remember this fiasco?) and our fascination with China being some sort of panacea to our problems.

We are seen as an establishment club, a club with a proud history but little recent success. A club whose supporters go to the snow and clap politely and say "Go Dees".

Well, so what. I like being associated with a club with nice supporters. I like our heritage. Lets embrace who we are and start to be masters of our own destiny. Stop following what everyone else is doing and start doing what will work for us, on and off the field. By following what is being done today means we will never catch up tomorrow. Everyone else will have moved on.

Stop taking the soft option and stop being followers.

Not sure what you are trying to tell me Spirit?

Are you telling me I should accept the status quo or complain loudly about our current situation?

Edited August 25, 2015 by old dee

[old dee 23,791]

When you say 'Introverts' I think of inertia.

When you say 'ego and strut' I think of confidence and boldness with the footy.

I think it is more important than this lack of speed that we have.

As for the need to think in the Grey - I couldn't agree more.

At one point this season there were people who thought we could win 9 of our last 10 games, and now we have people who would like to remove the coach a year early.

Hopping from one extreme to the other based on the performance of 22 evidently emotionally challenged individuals is ignoring the grey truth.

I think that applies to a small minority rpfc.

I don't think ( I hope not ) that you are suggesting that line belongs to the majority of supporters and defines the club.

Or are you?

[rpfc 28,431]

Not sure what you are trying to say Spirit?

Are you saying we should accept the status quo or [censored] like all hell about our current situation?

I think he is saying we should stop saying "If we were Collingwood, we would do ...." and just do our own thing and forge our own path.

I don't know whether that would mean a change of course for the current direction though...

[old dee 23,791]

I think he is saying we should stop saying "If we were Collingwood, we would do ...." and just do our own thing and forge our own path.

I don't know whether that would mean a change of course for the current direction though...

Thank god I was beginning to think I had missed something.

[rpfc 28,431]

I think that applies to a small minority rpfc.

I don't think ( I hope not ) that you are suggesting that line belongs to the majority of supporters and defines the club.

Or are you?

No, I am using those as extremes to prove a point - but the delusionally positive and the overtly negative are usually (I said usually) off the mark, and that if you change your mind based on the result of the past weekend(s) then you are going to make bad decisions.

And I don't want to labour the point because us fans are not the reason the club makes bad decisions but a certain pressure is brought to bare as we all know.

You, yourself have maintained that 2015 would look like what it has looked like with heights and lows smattered throughout. I hope the club has a similar outlook on the year as frustrating as it has been.

[Mach5 4,767]

Good OP.

I was going to start my own thread along similar lines, titled simply "Defeatism" but haven't found the time.

Not much need now.

As a supporter base, we need to harden the f**k up and stop using every loss as an excuse to wallow in our own ineptitude.

Stay the course, recognise what's happening, be critical where it is warranted, and have a bit of c**t about you instead of folding like a deck of cards every 2nd week.

[Chris 2,892]

I have been commenting here for 6 months or so after lurking for a year or more and have some worries about my fellow members, they include;

- Posters with an unnatural interest in flogging themselves

- Posters with an unnatural interest in other members flogging themselves

- Posters who appear to have connections with every organisation under the sun

- Posters who only comment on loses and are overly negative

- Posters who only comment on wins and can see no negatives at the club

- Poster who seem to enjoy whisky with an almost disturbing enthusiasm.

- People who want to trade N. Jones, not M. Jones.

- Far too few people talking about the snow (this is the dees after all)

- Many posters with seemingly fantastic long term memories (can tell you all about 87') but horrible short term memories (have forgotten how bad we were in 13')

If Roos is right, which I think he is, and we are part of the problem as we are constantly negative and joking about how bad the club is, then maybe it is us we should be looking at along with the players and coaches?

Many of the comments above are jovial in intent however a few are pointing to the problem Roos has called out. Maybe we should start to be more balanced in our appraisal, stop this Jeckyll and Hyde persona and actually provide meaningful comment and a balanced view to the progress of the team.

In short, are we actually the problem?

[Chris 2,892]

It seems there are some members who don't proof read their own topic titles as well!

[Sir Why You Little 37,038]

Pretty hard to "stay the course" when the players dish up a first half like last sunday.

That is inexcusable on any level

The players have to be prepared to get dirty and spill some blood.

For yhat they are well paid and respected

I do agree. We must forge our own path

[Gorgoroth 12,954]

I reserve the right to flip flop like a fish out of water with my emotions, thoughts, love/hate etc etc

I just wish I had the memory of a goldfish when it came to the last ten years.

[loges 6,767]

It seems there are some members who don't proof read their own topic titles as well!

Place yourself under point no. 1

[old dee 23,791]

I have been commenting here for 6 months or so after lurking for a year or more and have some worries about my fellow members, they include;

- Posters with an unnatural interest in flogging themselves

- Posters with an unnatural interest in other members flogging themselves

- Posters who appear to have connections with every organisation under the sun

- Posters who only comment on loses and are overly negative

- Posters who only comment on wins and can see no negatives at the club

- Poster who seem to enjoy whisky with an almost disturbing enthusiasm.

- People who want to trade N. Jones, not M. Jones.

- Far too few people talking about the snow (this is the dees after all)

- Many posters with seemingly fantastic long term memories (can tell you all about 87') but horrible short term memories (have forgotten how bad we were in 13')

If Roos is right, which I think he is, and we are part of the problem as we are constantly negative and joking about how bad the club is, then maybe it is us we should be looking at along with the players and coaches?

Many of the comments above are jovial in intent however a few are pointing to the problem Roos has called out. Maybe we should start to be more balanced in our appraisal, stop this Jeckyll and Hyde persona and actually provide meaningful comment and a balanced view to the progress of the team.

In short, are we actually the problem?

Hell No! it ain't us that runs out each week.

And can you tell me what is wrong with Point 6 please?

Edited August 25, 2015 by old dee

[Little Goffy 14,546]

The important thing in any organization is the creation of a soul which is based on pride.

George S Patton

He was known by his men as "Old Blood and Guts"

Our blood and his guts.

Indeed. Pattton was quite the moron.

His Lunatic ego-driven advances around the sparesely defended wide sides of Sicily completely ignored the strategic situation, and even the pre-agreed Allied plans.

While the British/Allied forces ground along against hard defences up the short east coast, Patton's arrogance saw Allied supplies and forces diverted to the terrific mission of successfully shepherding German/Italian forces back to the North-East corner, allowing them to make a protected, organised evacuation to mainland Italy, instead of being cut off and annihilated.

In that particular case, misplaced speed and 'swagger' likely extended the Italian campaign duration by months and cost tens of thousands of lives.

The essence of his 'boldness' was that he was convinced he was a great general, never really believed anything going wrong was his fault, and he never saw any need to improve or change, and only ever cared about his own objectives. Here's another Patton quote, if we're going that way -

"I believe that a good deal of my success and a great deal of my unpopularity is due to the fact that I fought every order to take troops away from me, and frequently succeeded in holding on to them or in getting others to replace them. "

Patton never sacrificed his own resources or glory for the sake of the overall objectives. As for the Melbourne Football Club, I'd prefer a great big dose of humility and resilience over some posturing 'look at me' types. They actually need to grasp they they are not such a big deal individually. They only matter as part of a team.

[Gorgoroth 12,954]

I agree with Kent about the pace and swagger.

Hogan def has the swagger.

Stay the course... The course is nine fuckin years long! We have stuck the course better than any other supporter group pretty much.

It's past time we supporters stay the course and about bloody time the club got its arse into gear and got on the freakin course.

Whilst I agree with a lot said, it's time the club knew that our patience is very very thin and we won't put up with crud the players have gotten away with for faaaaaar too long.