Post Match Discussion - Round 15

[The Song Formerly Known As 6,479]

A lot of 7.18 being thrown around, please don't let it become the new 186

[Curry & Beer 5,444]

A lot of 7.18 being thrown around, please don't let it become the new 186

well no you're about 30 goals off there

[Dr. Gonzo 24,231]

What does come to play mean??...they come to play every week, the problem is they get the confidence knocked out of them because there is no plan B on game day and they look lost and uninterested!

Come to play means putting in 100% effort 100% of the game and playing cohesively. When players are constantly behind their opponents and refuse to run hard both ways, refuse to run hard to create options and spread from a contest, that is "not coming to play".

[Dr. Gonzo 24,231]

There is no plan...if the opposition run out different to the team lineup published in the paper on Friday morning we are stuffed....and don't tell me our spare man in defence works when the opposition throws one back...come on, man on man, beat your direct opponent and if everyone does that you win! It's not rocket science, is football!

Richmond played a spare man in defence against us the whole game and we beat them.

[rjay 24,951]

Richmond played a spare man in defence against us the whole game and we beat them.

Also interesting to hear Buckley talking about Broadbent as the Port spare last game and howe they tried to take him out of the game. It wasn't by putting another player down forward it was using the players they had. Luck and checking (sometimes illegal as Collingwood did) meant they weren't successful.

There are many reasons why you just don't man up the spare, the game has changed.

[old dee 23,799]

Also interesting to hear Buckley talking about Broadbent as the Port spare last game and howe they tried to take him out of the game. It wasn't by putting another player down forward it was using the players they had. Luck and checking (sometimes illegal as Collingwood did) meant they weren't successful.

There are many reasons why you just don't man up the spare, the game has changed.

Re your last line rjay

Sadly in a lot of areas.

[Adam The God 30,273]

There have been plenty of excellent comments made on this thread, including those that have pointed at our failings and those that have highlighted our improvement.

The comments I don't agree with however are those criticising Roos. I think he has been fantastic for this footy club in helping to stabilise the decline, correct the culture, make the club more attractive and, in terms of on-field work, instil a much harder and competitive style of footy and improve effort levels dramatically. Yes there have been games and patches in games where our effort has been down, but from where we were at in 2013 it's a huge improvement.

Nevertheless, the two areas I think are really hurting us and were the reasons why I feared the Essendon game (and why we ultimately lost) are our mental fragility and overall lack of class.

On the first point, this is not something new with the MFC, and there have been plenty of comments in here about how for years we have lost the 'unloseable' games. What really frustrates me however is just the inability of our players to learn.

Now I know many of them weren't out there in previous years where we've lost such games, but many of them were there in the NAB Challenge where, in remarkably similar circumstances, we got done by Essendon's VFL team. Surely, after that, the players would have approached Saturday's game fully aware of the possibility of losing unless we were on top of our game. Yet despite this we came out just expecting it to happen, thinking we could work half as hard as we did against Geelong and get the points. What on earth is going through our players' heads that results in them coming out with that mindset? It is just mind-boggling that a team that has been as bad as ours for so long can think they can just rock up and get the win against another AFL team. I could understand the Hawks or Swans falling into this trap, but not us.

There was a period in the second term where we had Essendon on the ropes. A good side would have just finished them off then and there. However, we continually fail to take these opportunities to put sides away and then, slowly, they start to gain confidence and grow into the game and run over the top of us.

We will not get anywhere as a team until we can develop a mindset where we can approach a game versus a bottom side with the same intensity and desire as a game against a top team.

On the second point, I think a key reason why we keep dropping these games is our overall lack of class. We don't get reward for dominant periods of play the way the good sides do. We were all over Essendon in the second and fourth quarters but just struggled to convert that on the scoreboard. Obviously the poor inside 50s and the woeful kicking for goal affects that, but we just don't have enough class in our side to capitalise on our dominance. This is also the main reason why we fall short against the top teams. Under Roos we have become a side that can scrap it out and be really competitive on the inside, but we just get destroyed on the outside by the quicker, slicker opposition.

The same thing happened against Brisbane last year. We were on top in general play for three quarters but just could not put them away. Then they stormed home and beat us. Also in Round 1 last year against the Saints where we were the better side but just could not convert on that dominance and they beat us with one big surge in the third quarter. Until we can add that class to our mix (which thankfully some of our youngsters have) we will continue to struggle to put away lowly sides.

So forget about blaming Roos and coaching tactics. At the end of the day it shouldn't really come down to little things like tactics. A mentally stronger Melbourne side with some more class would have easily accounted for Essendon yesterday irrespective of things like a loose man in defence. This is what we need to focus on.

Great post.

We won't get anywhere until we start playing 'as a team' consistently, for four quarters. That includes shepherding, gut-running, talking, gang tackling etc.

Certainly agree about the lack of class. Brayshaw has it. Hogan has it. Hoping Petracca has it and maybe Bernie Vince. No one else really. Not consistently anyway.

[Devil is in the Detail 883]

Great post.

We won't get anywhere until we start playing 'as a team' consistently, for four quarters. That includes shepherding, gut-running, talking, gang tackling etc.

Certainly agree about the lack of class. Brayshaw has it. Hogan has it. Hoping Petracca has it and maybe Bernie Vince. No one else really. Not consistently anyway.

Salem and Watts

[Adam The God 30,273]

Salem and Watts

True. Should have included those two guys too. Six guys. Hmmm.

[Devil is in the Detail 883]

True. Should have included those two guys too. Six guys. Hmmm.

I reckon the Toump as well, once Picket Fence gets off his back.

[GoDees! 3]

Richmond played a spare man in defence against us the whole game and we beat them.

Oh come on, who was the spare Richmond player...and at the time they were nearly as disenchanted as Melbourne are now??

[Bobby McKenzie 2,385]

Great post.

We won't get anywhere until we start playing 'as a team' consistently, for four quarters. That includes shepherding, gut-running, talking, gang tackling etc.

Certainly agree about the lack of class. Brayshaw has it. Hogan has it. Hoping Petracca has it and maybe Bernie Vince. No one else really. Not consistently anyway.

No maybe about Bernie Vince. He is all class! Watts and Salem too and you would have to include our bonus recruit, Jeff Garlett.

[Little Richard 6,265]

Jones definitely has class. Is one of the best kicks in the team and despite his chunky appearance regularly dances out of packs.

He makes things happen.

[What 18,810]

27 pages, says a lot about how much this loss made supporters angry and disillusioned.

Whats really sad is if we had kicked a still miserable 9.16, we would have won by a point.

Anyways, bring on the Lions.

[GoDees! 3]

Come to play means putting in 100% effort 100% of the game and playing cohesively. When players are constantly behind their opponents and refuse to run hard both ways, refuse to run hard to create options and spread from a contest, that is "not coming to play".

You can only give 100% and play cohesively when you know what you are expected to do.

When the opposition step outside the 'expected norm' the Melbourne guys don't know what to do or how to react as they are too scared to step outside the Thursday night game plan, which looked great on paper!

That's why on 'game day' Melbourne are out coached more weeks than not! All an opposition coach has to do to gain the ascendancy over Melbourne is...throw one behind the ball, pressure their half backs/mid field, force them to bomb it inside 50 and your spares sitting back will clear it and transition the ball from half back to half forward without any pressure to a forward leading up at the ball!

[dpositive 1,665]

Well Ive dabbled around the site and still noone has told me to stop Thanks OD for the invite to continue

So where was I??

Oh yes

How did we manage to beat Bulldogs and Geelong and look so good doing it?

WE do have a squad of players and a squad of skill sets. They are not in any way all equal which is a feature of our game. But this does not distinguish us from any other club. Hawthorn has a mix Collingwood have a mix, Geelong have a mix etc.

Perhaps we matched up well our mix of skills against their mix of skills, tall for tall small for small and gave players the assignment to beat their opponent and this helped us be more competitive.

We need to pick from the squad a team which will match against the opposition. We seem forced to play our limited "best" 22 unless affected by injury.

Sometimes especially the young need to be rested or need to go back a grade to rebuild their confidence and refresh their skills. There should be no disgrace or concern with this.

Certainly young players need exposure to the faster pace and increased pressure of a higher level but sometimes a player can be rested.This is done in most country leagues if there are numbers available, you dont throw your best young player into the cauldron week after week and just expect him to thrive. You know he will need to be managed.

Our squad does need to to have players putting pressure on those in the fixed 22 but sometimes this pressure can also be important just to provide a cut out.

Perhaps T Mac instead of being moved to the forward line should go back to Casey and rebuild his confidence after being thrashed by Cloke. He was certainly just starting to build up a head of steam as an AA CHB.

Performance management does seem an abstract concept to these players. I constantly ask if they are comparing their game to others in the league. We seem to be remote from their performance standards

Apparently Brayshaw yelled at Jones to take the first option.

Watts always had problems taking the first instinctive option as no one around him was ready for it. He now seems to be more at ease and I am not sure if it is because of a confidence in himself or confidence in the players he is giving to.

Taking the first option requires your teammates to expect it and know what your capability is. Our players do not seem to have this knowledge. Did anyone else know that T MAc was a poor kick and unlikely to score? why wasnt there someone there to take the kick. Do they know that if Dawes has two on him someone is free? who is that? Where are they?

dothey expect Viney to always take on the tackle lose the ball and kick poorly? What are they doing about it? do they provide space for him? or a target for him?

Our disposal is poor because we are always under pressure.

Players do not make space and do not move or kick to space.

Players give to players under pressure and rarely shepherd off.

Players do not pressure the opposition, this allows them to dispose accurately

OUr players often seem to fly against each other

Dont they know that Hogan will ALWAYS contest? make room for him and provide a target.

Dont they know Howe is a one trick pony but is guaranteed to jump over most players . Let HIm . Protect him and give him a target.

This is now me just starting to rant incoherently

Our coaches should know all this and more

I have my faith in Roos still as I can see that there has been improvement but I guess there are many aspects of the game that I see other clubs doing regularly and I see my club doing inconsistently. I see other sports performing at better levels more consistently

.

The Orica Greenedge team have performed on the international stage with improving and elite success they won the time trial last year with record time and won stages in the Giro. BUT then this year they got belted with injury., it is a team structure, tactic, thing where the components of the squad are picked for various events and various attributes. I guess it doesnt always work but as with Mathews battling on with cracked ribs they do always seem to give their all. I am wondering if they will pick up Porte to have a real crack at GC as he would seem to add to the total team performance

I will always support the Dees, always praise my teams players. But Crikey it makes it hard when they fail to run, fail to chase, fail to give their all. I do expect them to come off the field exhuasted.

Thanks for the space sorry to bore you perhaps but I feel better now. The, why did you support Demons, thread has been fantastic and I recommend it to you rather than the sad blatherings of a demented soul.

[old dee 23,799]

No maybe about Bernie Vince. He is all class! Watts and Salem too and you would have to include our bonus recruit, Jeff Garlett.

I am no big fan of Garlett he is a one quarter a game player a worthwhile pick up but

Rioli he ain't

[old dee 23,799]

Jones definitely has class. Is one of the best kicks in the team and despite his chunky appearance regularly dances out of packs.

He makes things happen.

I agree Django and do not take this the wrong way but that is no big recommendation at the MFC.

[Bobby McKenzie 2,385]

I am no big fan of Garlett he is a one quarter a game player a worthwhile pick up but

Rioli he ain't

Rioli sets a pretty high benchmark old dee. Garlett, I believe, has all the skills needed to have class. As far as being a one quarter player he is consistently each quarter harassing defenders and putting on great pressure with his many chases and tackles. I do however fully respect your opinion.

Edited July 14, 2015 by Bobby McKenzie

[What 18,810]

I am no big fan of Garlett he is a one quarter a game player a worthwhile pick up but

Rioli he ain't

lets not forget where we were at for years OD, we had no small forward to speak of and zero forward pressure...

Garlett is a breath of fresh air, lets not take it for granted!

[old dee 23,799]

lets not forget where we were at for years OD, we had no small forward to speak of and zero forward pressure...

Garlett is a breath of fresh air, lets not take it for granted!

Don't disagree h_h and I am happy we picked him but seriously doubt he will every kick a bag.

A couple of goals every now and then looks his ability.

No one was queing up for his services when we got him so he is probably fairly cheap.

He is better at his caper then anyone else we have at present.

[John Crow Batty 8,871]

This is a team game and Garlett is finisher at the pointy end that takes advantage of good play upfield. If we were a better side he would be doubling his productivity. Our gelling as a team still sucks at the moment and has for years. We got to get that right first. We had a hint of how it should be against Geelong.

Edited July 14, 2015 by america de cali

[Bobby McKenzie 2,385]

Don't disagree h_h and I am happy we picked him but seriously doubt he will every kick a bag.

A couple of goals every now and then looks his ability.

No one was queing up for his services when we got him so he is probably fairly cheap.

He is better at his caper then anyone else we have at present.

I think that 27 goals in 14 games is a bit better than 'a couple of goals every now and then' old dee. He is averaging just under two a game. Cheers.

[Willmoy1947 4,099]

Does anyone remember whether or not our fitness level in comparison to other better teams is supposed to be built up to around 80% from 2014 into 2015

If this was what was mentioned by Misson and Co last year surely that could be a factor in a lot of our game implementation.

[titan_uranus 25,020]

I am no big fan of Garlett he is a one quarter a game player a worthwhile pick up but

Rioli he ain't

Don't disagree h_h and I am happy we picked him but seriously doubt he will every kick a bag.

A couple of goals every now and then looks his ability.

No one was queing up for his services when we got him so he is probably fairly cheap.

He is better at his caper then anyone else we have at present.

You're allowed to be pessimistic and critical but at least direct it in the right places.

Garlett this year is averaging 1.8 goals per game. Rioli is averaging 1.5. Garlett's also averaging 4.8 tackles per game to Rioli's 4.2. I'm not saying Garlett is better than Rioli but why does he have to be?

As for 'a couple of goals a game', he kicked 4 against Geelong and 3 against Hawthorn and Fremantle - he's capable of hitting the scoreboard. His forward pressure is fantastic (it's not his fault the majority of the rest of our forward line is no good at it). He consistently puts himself in the right places (whether it's front and centre of marking contests, where for the last 5 years we've had no one, or out the back of packs ready to use his pace).

IMO, he's actually one of the few players who regularly puts in four quarters, even when the team isn't - you might not notice him during those kinds of games, but that's often because when the team is down a small forward doesn't get a lot of the ball. And at least the last fortnight, during which time the team has been disappointing, he's been leading the way with defensive pressure - 19 tackles in the last two weeks.