POST MATCH DISCUSSION - Round 10

[old dee 23,792]

That's not the only recurring theme around here.

Yes we didn't win but as many posters who are not entirely addicted to seeing the glass half-empty have pointed out there were lots of promising things and we were not far off despite Cloak kicking straight for the first time in aeons.

Sue the glass has been half empty for the best part of a decade and no amount of saying it is half full will win games.

In the end you win games or you don't we consistently don't and there is always a bloody excuse.

Like Cloke kicking straight for the first time in aeons

It is equally true that we gifted him two goals.

We lost this game because of poor performance by a number of players and that is a recurring theme.

We are 3 and 6 about the same as last year at this point.

[Straight Sets Simon 23,113]

Sue the glass has been half empty for the best part of a decade and no amount of saying it is half full will win games.

In the end you win games or you don't we consistently don't and there is always a bloody excuse.

Like Cloke kicking straight for the first time in aeons

It is equally true that we gifted him two goals.

We lost this game because of poor performance by a number of players and that is a recurring theme.

We are 3 and 6 about the same as last year at this point.

I think we are much better than last year.

[What 18,810]

Any word on Jack Vineys scans?

[ChaserJ 5,096]

A couple of the hot potato handballs were poor, but most were good. He plays on a wing, his opponent is going to get some ball the other way.

Sure he should've picked up Fasolo on the highlight shown on one of the TV shows but I significantly doubt Fasolo was his man. He needs more game awareness to make those decisions but the reality is he was likely working hard to get back and help the defenders and Fasolo was just as likely one of their men.

First year Toump couldn't mark, couldn't tackle, wouldn't win a contested ground ball and was completely lost.

He's now much stronger with contested ball and an acceptable tackler. Still can't really mark. But he is starting to think and work his way through scenarios and his work rate is a step above any other options we have in what's probably our weakest position.

He's far from perfect but I think it's very myopic not to see the positives in his game today and not to recognise signs of improvement. To suggest he be dropped is massively undervaluing what he can bring and massively overrating what little we have at Casey by way of hard running wingmen.

Toumpas is still a developing player, but he is starting to show some of the things in game that stood out when he was a junior, primarily his hard running and neat foot skills. His contested work is improving, which has to be noted, this was definitely not a strength when he was drafted. I think the majority of his possessions were contested on Monday.

Also his composure under pressure was an issue at times as a junior, and is clearly something he needs to continue to work on. Defensive running and positioning is generally an area all draftees need to improve on.

Jimmy’s virtually a second year player after numerous injuries, but I’m satisfied that we are seeing some of his strong points coming out in games. I can see the development in his game. He will make errors, but I believe that the best place for him to learn is on the field. He certainly should have learned plenty from yesterday’s game.

[Curry & Beer 5,444]

I think we are much better than last year.

we clearly are

[Young Dee 1,303]

Toumpas is still a developing player, but he is starting to show some of the things in game that stood out when he was a junior, primarily his hard running and neat foot skills. His contested work is improving, which has to be noted, this was definitely not a strength when he was drafted. I think the majority of his possessions were contested on Monday.

Also his composure under pressure was an issue at times as a junior, and is clearly something he needs to continue to work on. Defensive running and positioning is generally an area all draftees need to improve on.

Jimmy’s virtually a second year player after numerous injuries, but I’m satisfied that we are seeing some of his strong points coming out in games. I can see the development in his game. He will make errors, but I believe that the best place for him to learn is on the field. He certainly should have learned plenty from yesterday’s game.

Will be interesting to see how he plays against a team like St Kilda because I think since he has come in he has played strong contested teams.

[old dee 23,792]

I agree sue. I walked away from the game disappointed that I didn't the shot of euphoria I'd have gotten from a win, but otherwise I thought it was an entertaining game.

I really think that Eeyore pic someone posted the other day really does suit old dee.

I am really sorry if my preoccupation with winning as against losing is annoying you guys.

Sorry for wanting to win.

I get so bloody tired of gee we played a lot better today but we lost never mind we are better.

[old dee 23,792]

I think we are much better than last year.

I agree with that CB but the score board says we still don't win.

[beelzebub 23,379]

I think we are much better than last year.

I agree we are..but then the ladder suggests we're not. The ladder is the ultimate arbiter in all of this. Thats just a reality, like it or not

[drdrake 3,178]

Will be interesting to see how he plays against a team like St Kilda because I think since he has come in he has played strong contested teams.

This is a big for the whole team, St Kilda is a game we should win, we need to win. We lost yesterday, panicked in the first 30 min that is what cost us. It wasn't just one player the whole team panicked under the pressure. We settled controlled the match but panicked when they came back.

St Kilda is a bottom 4 team, we need to beat them it is unacceptable not to win this week.

[sue 9,107]

I agree with that CB but the score board says we still don't win.

I'm pleased to hear you say we are better than last year despite your focus on the win-loss ratio.

Unlike you I don't get 'so bloody tired of gee we played a lot better today but we lost never mind we are better' because in recent years we haven't been able to say that often enough to get tired of it.

Of course ultimately where we are on the ladder is the main thing. But when a team has been as bad as ours, we need to get to the 'main thing' by steps. And I for one am pleased to take comfort when I see those steps being taken. Let's just hope we don't go backwards in the rest of the year.

[Little Richard 6,264]

I agree we are..but then the ladder suggests we're not. The ladder is the ultimate arbiter in all of this. Thats just a reality, like it or not

Very true, that's where it matters.

We could lose to every side by a point and our percentage would be nice, we'd have probably played well during the year but... we'd be dead last on 0 points.

[praha 11,240]

I am not at all confident that we'll beat St. Kilda.

If we don't, it'll be very hard to demonstrate that we've improved this year beyond normalised expectations of improvement.

We've failed to turn the corner after every opportunity so far this year. It is a must-win in terms of the team's development, in terms of doing something that the club has been incapable of doing for a decade (win at Etihad, beat the Saints).

A loss would be disastrous imo.

[demon-4-life 467]

Not sure, but I actually left the game in an ok mood.

Sure we lost, but here's the positive spin.

Collingwood scored 13 goals from our turnovers.

We scored 4 goals from theirs.

In a quick analysis of the game:

• Cloke kicked 7 straight. That never has happened, and he's rarely ever going to be that accurate. Especially the one from the boundary line.
• Jamie Elliot kicked an absolute beauty from the boundary line as well.
• Fasolo got an easy lead up mark which shouldn't have happened.
• As a whole Melbourne was the better side on the day IMO. We made/lost the play as opposed to being completely outplayed.

In the long term, if we:

• Clean up our major turnovers, ie (Fitzy's brain fade, Dunn's kick out, Viney's direct turnover)
• Kick straight (Pederson, Howe)
• Get our overall turnovers down to around 5-6 goals a game
• Get some more experience into a group of players including: Brayshaw, Petracca, ANB, Viney, Hogan, Stretch, Tyson
• Draft another gem next year (given Roos hit rate so far, I'm quite confident with this)

We'll be fine. The future is looking brighter than it did a while ago that is for sure.

[beelzebub 23,379]

I am not at all confident that we'll beat St. Kilda.

nor am I but we might

[old dee 23,792]

I'm pleased to hear you say we are better than last year despite your focus on the win-loss ratio.

Unlike you I don't get 'so bloody tired of gee we played a lot better today but we lost never mind we are better' because in recent years we haven't been able to say that often enough to get tired of it.

Of course ultimately where we are on the ladder is the main thing. But when a team has been as bad as ours, we need to get to the 'main thing' by steps. And I for one am pleased to take comfort when I see those steps being taken. Let's just hope we don't go backwards in the rest of the year.

Sue I get so frustrated with the MFC supporters being satisfied with good performances but not winning.

You are correct this year is way better than 2012/3 in appears our list is improving however he have been saying similar things for 45 of the last 51 years.

When we start snatching victory from the jaws of defeat I will be happy until then I am going to remain unhappy at losing.

If it helps I will try to not be as demonstrative about it.

How is that?

[rpfc 28,482]

I am really sorry if my preoccupation with winning as against losing is annoying you guys.

Sorry for wanting to win.

I get so bloody tired of gee we played a lot better today but we lost never mind we are better.

How are you fatigued with this - it's not like we have had a great many games in the last few years where we could say that.

Honestly, you yourself expected no more than where we are.

I was appalled at qtr time and thought here we go again...

And then the next two quarters had some of the most enterprising, exciting footy I have seen since 2010 - destroying a good team that was, minutes earlier, destroying us.

We all want to win, you don't have to 'apologise' for that, as we don't have to 'apologise' for seeing the progress and pointing it out.

[beelzebub 23,379]

It strikes me as almost funny that supposedly Roos isnt a fan of the 'spray" That apparently is seen as non helpful in this century

And yet the single theme that runs through his pressers is that the players arent listening. Well Id be giving them the spray of sprays at 3/4 time if they werent listening. Id leave them in no doubt what so ever as to what they are supposed to be doing and what the consequences are if they dont.

I dont quite understand how one of the great 'communicators' of modern footy cant get his ideas and instructions understood .

I know ...a little last century perhaps.... btw ...when did we win our last Premiership ??

[iv'a worn smith 1,979]

I am really sorry if my preoccupation with winning as against losing is annoying you guys.

Sorry for wanting to win.

I get so bloody tired of gee we played a lot better today but we lost never mind we are better.

Completely understood OD. But we simply are still a ways off. I was heartened by the performance of a number of the young guys. Bradshaw will be an absolute gun and shows maturity beyond his years. He sticks tackles now, imagine how he will be with a bigger, stronger body. I thought Toumpas played well and although hesitant at times, I reckon the game will do wonders for his confidence. I love Viney's aggression and hope he can work on his disposal. Keeping in mind that Jesse was well held yesterday, while at the other end, Cloke chose to have his day out against us, I was rapt that the boys had a red hot go. Yes, I know, no win. But I thought there was some steel and resilience, against a side which clearly had the edge in terms of experience and size.

What struck me most - and this is what the game is about - is just how quickly you need to make decisions in the AFL. The pace yesterday was frenetic, but to me the major difference was that they were much cleaner in the clinches, generally, than what we were. That shows the difference in class. A split second handball that regularly found its target, as opposed to a fumbled possession, errant handball, a poor short pass to a target.

I'm tired of waiting too OD, but things looked a lot better yesterday and I don't think the future - this time around - will be full of false promise.

[jazza 1,323]

I think we are much better than last year.

we clearly are

Agree,but now waiting for somebody to post then 600 word graph and explain why we are not.

[Adam The God 30,266]

First game I've seen live in ages and I'm glad I did. What I noticed is that when we made errors was that it was it was amazingly obvious that it was going to happen, as there were no options upfield, and the close options were closed up, forcing us in to either a very difficult kick or a handball to someone stationary. I thought we lost today not due to poor skills but because we don't instinctively mobilise for attack when we cause turnovers. When we went long, 43 for Collingwood (Oxley?) picked us off. That makes the skills look poor but I think its more of an effect than the cause. Jimmy T is the biggest victim of this.

Thought Aidan Riley was good. Don't know how much of the ball he saw but he was clean with it and menacing without.

Thought Benny Newton added nothing. Riley and Matt Jones are both ahead of him for mine.

That Fitzy throw was the most amazing thing I have ever seen in a footy game. WTAF? Was clearly a panicked action, but, wow.

Travis Cloke is a way better player than I thought. We had no answer.

The Collingwood supporters around me don't know the rules (calling "ball" on literally every single tackle) and the MFC supporters around me aren't up with the nuances of the modern game, with their "just kick it" calls and muttering whenever a chain of handballs started; even though they generally lead to something good.

I think that's more anxiety from our supporters. We've been burned so many times in the past by over use and staticness that the reflex response is to yell "just kick it". To be fair over use may have got us out of defence a couple of times yesterday, but it also hurt us a number of times too.

[old dee 23,792]

It strikes me as almost funny that supposedly Roos isnt a fan of the 'spray" That apparently is seen as non helpful in this century

And yet the single theme that runs through his pressers is that the players arent listening. Well Id be giving them the spray of sprays at 3/4 time if they werent listening. Id leave them in no doubt what so ever as to what they are supposed to be doing and what the consequences are if they dont.

I dont quite understand how one of the great 'communicators' of modern footy cant get his ideas and instructions understood .

I know ...a little last century perhaps.... btw ...when did we win our last Premiership ??

Umm half a century ago.

[beelzebub 23,379]

Agree,but now waiting for somebody to post then 600 word graph and explain why we are not.

Ill make easy for ya farmer boy

2014 round 10 melbourne 3 and 7

2015 round 10 melbourne 3 and 7

atm our improvement in terms that matter...i.e the ladder....zilch

[ChaserJ 5,096]

I am not at all confident that we'll beat St. Kilda.

If we don't, it'll be very hard to demonstrate that we've improved this year beyond normalised expectations of improvement.

We've failed to turn the corner after every opportunity so far this year. It is a must-win in terms of the team's development, in terms of doing something that the club has been incapable of doing for a decade (win at Etihad, beat the Saints).

A loss would be disastrous imo.

Agree on most points. It's felt a little like two steps forward one back so far this year. I can see progress, but then we turn it up for half a game and familiar softness reappears.

Both teams will approach this as one that they expect to win. Historically we haven't gone real well in those types of games, with the opponent often looking like they want it that little bit more.

We need to bring the effort from Monday in, but the way the Saints have been playing, any drop off from our end will see us get pantsed.

This is far from a gimme game.

[praha 11,240]

Not sure, but I actually left the game in an ok mood.

Sure we lost, but here's the positive spin.

Collingwood scored 13 goals from our turnovers.

We scored 4 goals from theirs.

In a quick analysis of the game:

• Cloke kicked 7 straight. That never has happened, and he's rarely ever going to be that accurate. Especially the one from the boundary line.
• Jamie Elliot kicked an absolute beauty from the boundary line as well.
• Fasolo got an easy lead up mark which shouldn't have happened.
• As a whole Melbourne was the better side on the day IMO. We made/lost the play as opposed to being completely outplayed.

In the long term, if we:

• Clean up our major turnovers, ie (Fitzy's brain fade, Dunn's kick out, Viney's direct turnover)
• Kick straight (Pederson, Howe)
• Get our overall turnovers down to around 5-6 goals a game
• Get some more experience into a group of players including: Brayshaw, Petracca, ANB, Viney, Hogan, Stretch, Tyson
• Draft another gem next year (given Roos hit rate so far, I'm quite confident with this)

We'll be fine. The future is looking brighter than it did a while ago that is for sure.

We were definitely the better team I thought but as usual, we capitulate in patches and no team allows the opposition to score as quickly. Collingwood is actually a close second in that regard and we've seen that a few times this year. They'll come undone against top teams.

I thought that when we went on a run, we looked more dangerous and had more control over the game than they did.

When they had control, it was due to our breakdowns. We went from top 4 side to a bottom 4 side in a matter of minutes. Astonishing.

Granted, their pressure was good, but our forwards also let them get out with ease.

Roos was completely right in that Oxley was given far too many easy contests. I counted probably 4 or 5 times when a huge pack went up, but Oxley got a clean mark. Our forwards kept spoiling one another. That's not a coaching issue.

To be frank I think our momentum yesterday was our own worst enemy. Whenever we got a run on, we seemed to get increasingly erratic, kind of like a little kid on a sugar rush. Then they'd throw Oxley back and our forwards suddenly became a dysfunctional mess, while our backline suddenly became indecisive.

I walked away disappointed we lost but happy with the match overall. As a neutral fan it surely must have been fun to watch.

If we play like that on a consistent basis, I think we're a season away from winning games like that by 10 goals. When we were on, we looked far better than Collingwood did at any point during the match.

But consistency now is the issue. Our good is good enough to win us games. But our worst is enough to lose us a match, irrespective of how well we play in patches. That was evident yesterday: our good was very good, but our bad cost us the game. For good teams, it's the other way around: their good is good enough to win them a match, irrespective of how bad their bad patches in a match are.

Edited June 9, 2015 by praha