Interesting and thanks for the info.

Much can change over the course of a year and judging by comments made this year after certain losses and similar periods of non-competitive and skill-less football as last year, Roos and co have surely come to the understanding that the list still needs a lot of work. In all areas.

Looking closely at the six players that have already been moved on, it would be fair to say that Jamar, Bail, McKenzie, Riley and Fitzpatrick offered us very little in the way of 'depth'. One of many problems with our list is that not only do we not have quality depth, we don't even have decent depth. Clearly this was evidenced by Roos' desire to play underdeveloped first year players off the back of very limited pre-seasons in ANB, Stretch and Vandenberg, and a refusal to play those aforementioned, much older and more experienced names.

In knowing that, is it not obvious as to why we'd be trying to target out-of-form but talented players like Melksham? Or do posters still struggle to recognise this?

Again, I'll remind you that Melksham's 2013 season shits all over anything that Bail, McKenzie and Riley have produced throughout their careers and he possess a skill-set that is greater than theirs.

List management and changes at a club like ours is clearly a more difficult process than at most other clubs. We have to target depth, talent, senior leadership, role-playing and drafting correctly. Targeting depth players like Melksham with the scope for improvement is nothing short of a necessity for the MFC.

After this time next year and if all goes to plan, list changes won't anywhere near as drastic as what we've witnessed over the past few years. Get our depth right, develop our kids right and keep nailing the draft, bring in a couple more older and more experienced heads to continue to help nurture and bring in at least on A grader into the midfield, (hopefully two) and we'll continue to rise.

Short reply to a lengthy post STMJ, but I'm coming around to the value of Melksham as depth. It probably comes back to what ludicrous offer Essendon requires and I could see the trade being stalled because of it.

I think that the Club should be able, one way or the other, to handle Melksham's exit from Essendon without to much ado...

I think that the Club should be able, one way or the other, to handle Melksham's exit from Essendon without to much ado...

PSD is still there waiting to be relevant.

PSD is still there waiting to be relevant.

Would we get him there? I can't even remember how it works.

I am coming around to this need for culture change. The new players still have a burning hunger to succeed, whereas the older players could well be burnt out by constant failure. Anyway we will have changed 75% of the list by December.

75 % is a start

I have said it over last 3 years

All of those players back to Dunn need be exocised. Finally we are doing it. Grimes Garland probably even Jones eventually

All have been completely ruined by bad culture and acceptance of loss

PSD is still there waiting to be relevant.

or PTSD - negligence in regard to their duty of care.

Interesting watching the Brownlow coverage last night. They interviewed a bunch of people including Nat Fyfe's neighbour growing up - Cale Morton. What stood out is that they singled out Fyfe's competitiveness. Morton was the more highly touted junior, but arguably Fyfe was the kid prepared to crawl over broken glass to taste success. Fyfe has a Brownlow and Morton is no longer on an AFL list. I think the club is now onto this.

Absolutely spot on grazman - you can put Watts into this bucket of highly rated juniors without the mettle or appetite for the contest. Imagine the Dees with Nic Nat rucking to Fyfe? I can't say for sure that we'd be playing this weekend but gee we'd be a lot closer to the ultimate

What about Harmes? I'd be staggered if at least 2/3 out of Howe, Garland, Grimes, Toumpas, Jones and Terlich aren't moved on.

I didn't say Harmes wouldn't be elevated. From memory we need to go to the draft with three live selections. I'm not sure if a promoted rookie counts - if so, Harmes may still get promoted this draft. Ideally we keep him on the RL, but if we can't, then I too would be staggered if he wasn't elevated.

With regards to the names you mentioned, you can tell our list is in a much better state, especially if Grimes and Toumpas are in the "bottom" group of depth players. Grimes in particular is generally reliable (kicking not so much), but you know he puts in 100% when he gets the opportunity. If he's one of the weaker players on our list, that's when we're starting to get "better" depth. If the likes of he, Toumpas, MJones and Terlich don't step up next year, they will go. All of a sudden, our "bottom" depth will be the likes of Newton, Michie, JKH, even potentially Melksham. Given those four I just named have shown ability at senior level, if they are all of a sudden the weakest links, we're well on track. Just need to develop those "mid-range" kids (Stretch, ANB, White, Vanders, etc), so that they don't become our bottom depth.

I know it's a Captain Obvious call, but our success will rely on Viney, Brayshaw, Tyson, Petracca and Salem becoming high quality players (better than Vince in 2015 and Jones in 2014). If that happens, and the Stretch/ANB/White/Vanders group become solid, best 22 players, that's when we will be a serious chance.

It's exciting, but we've been here before so I'm not reaching for the tissues, yet...!!!

Absolutely spot on grazman - you can put Watts into this bucket of highly rated juniors without the mettle or appetite for the contest. Imagine the Dees with Nic Nat rucking to Fyfe? I can't say for sure that we'd be playing this weekend but gee we'd be a lot closer to the ultimate

It's possible that Fyfe would turn it over because of the heavy tackle that Trengove put on him, which spilt it out to Toumpas, who put it down Watts' throat, who went back and kicked his 150th for the year, giving Freo their first flag.

Moral - it's just as effing irrelevant.

Interesting watching the Brownlow coverage last night. They interviewed a bunch of people including Nat Fyfe's neighbour growing up - Cale Morton. What stood out is that they singled out Fyfe's competitiveness. Morton was the more highly touted junior, but arguably Fyfe was the kid prepared to crawl over broken glass to taste success. Fyfe has a Brownlow and Morton is no longer on an AFL list. I think the club is now onto this.

That's what I love about Jack Viney.

Interesting and thanks for the info.

Much can change over the course of a year and judging by comments made this year after certain losses and similar periods of non-competitive and skill-less football as last year, Roos and co have surely come to the understanding that the list still needs a lot of work. In all areas.

Looking closely at the six players that have already been moved on, it would be fair to say that Jamar, Bail, McKenzie, Riley and Fitzpatrick offered us very little in the way of 'depth'. One of many problems with our list is that not only do we not have quality depth, we don't even have decent depth. Clearly this was evidenced by Roos' desire to play underdeveloped first year players off the back of very limited pre-seasons in ANB, Stretch and Vandenberg, and a refusal to play those aforementioned, much older and more experienced names.

In knowing that, is it not obvious as to why we'd be trying to target out-of-form but talented players like Melksham? Or do posters still struggle to recognise this?

Again, I'll remind you that Melksham's 2013 season shits all over anything that Bail, McKenzie and Riley have produced throughout their careers and he possess a skill-set that is greater than theirs.

List management and changes at a club like ours is clearly a more difficult process than at most other clubs. We have to target depth, talent, senior leadership, role-playing and drafting correctly. Targeting depth players like Melksham with the scope for improvement is nothing short of a necessity for the MFC.

After this time next year and if all goes to plan, list changes won't be anywhere near as drastic as what we've witnessed over the past few years. Get our depth right, develop our kids right and keep nailing the draft, bring in a couple more older and more experienced heads to continue to help nurture and bring in at least on A grader into the midfield, (hopefully two) and we'll continue to rise.

I've kind of covered it in an earlier post, STMJ, but it's quite possible that by the end of 2016, ANB, Stretch, Vanders, Harmes and White could become our "bottom" depth. And before any of you jump up and down, these are basically 2nd year players, it's totally acceptable that they haven't consolidated their spot in the best 22 - that's what happens to most young players at the good clubs!

It's possible that Fyfe would turn it over because of the heavy tackle that Trengove put on him, which spilt it out to Toumpas, who put it down Watts' throat, who went back and kicked his 150th for the year, giving Freo their first flag.

Moral - it's just as effing irrelevant.

Obviously it's not as simple as that but the fact remains we had 4 chances to pick Fyfe which makes my blood boil. These recruiters need to be held accountable for the crucial decisions they make

That's totally illogical, and every AFL coach would tell you how hard it is to win a final. They'd also tell you that you need to be consistently playing in finals to eventually achieve your goal of ultimate success. North learnt from last year, and played at a higher level in the finals this year.

Playing in finals would give players an idea of how the pressure is different and how certain rules are relaxed or in the case of last weeks games overruled. But just because your playing in a final doesn't necessarily mean you will learn.

In your opinion what have North and Richmond learnt over the past couple of seasons.

Some of our players are so stupid they obviously thought that by Roos coaching that it would translate in automatic wins, they forgot the part that they have to learn, evolve as players and sadly in some cases try.

Obviously it's not as simple as that but the fact remains we had 4 chances to pick Fyfe which makes my blood boil. These recruiters need to be held accountable for the crucial decisions they make

Like the other 19 opportunities presented to other clubs that didn't take him?

Not saying you didn't see the talent in him prior to the draft, but a lot of it is revisionism at its finest, and like the Wines/Toumpas argument, and many other similar ones, it gives me the shits.

I've kind of covered it in an earlier post, STMJ, but it's quite possible that by the end of 2016, ANB, Stretch, Vanders, Harmes and White could become our "bottom" depth. And before any of you jump up and down, these are basically 2nd year players, it's totally acceptable that they haven't consolidated their spot in the best 22 - that's what happens to most young players at the good clubs!

The problem is the 6-10 players that you're considering as best 22, are either performing poorly or make little impact. Watts, Garland, Lumumba, Howe, Dawes, Grimes and Jetta are all in that age bracket where you expect them to make an impact on the result of the game. Rarely did any of these players make an impact this year. Vanders was far more impactful, and is nowhere near "bottom depth" as you say.

Edited September 29, 20159 yr by mo64

Interesting watching the Brownlow coverage last night. They interviewed a bunch of people including Nat Fyfe's neighbour growing up - Cale Morton. What stood out is that they singled out Fyfe's competitiveness. Morton was the more highly touted junior, but arguably Fyfe was the kid prepared to crawl over broken glass to taste success. Fyfe has a Brownlow and Morton is no longer on an AFL list. I think the club is now onto this.

1 - must be a natural competitor

2 - elite skills

3 - footy smarts

Not being smart but the successful clubs have been drafting kids with those traits for years.

Playing in finals would give players an idea of how the pressure is different and how certain rules are relaxed or in the case of last weeks games overruled. But just because your playing in a final doesn't necessarily mean you will learn.

In your opinion what have North and Richmond learnt over the past couple of seasons.

Some of our players are so stupid they obviously thought that by Roos coaching that it would translate in automatic wins, they forgot the part that they have to learn, evolve as players and sadly in some cases try.

I'm talking about the club, not the players. They went out and got 2 free agents for nothing, both of whom made an impact in the finals. Richmond on the other hand, hardly changed their list, and learnt nothing from the previous year.

Interesting watching the Brownlow coverage last night. They interviewed a bunch of people including Nat Fyfe's neighbour growing up - Cale Morton. What stood out is that they singled out Fyfe's competitiveness. Morton was the more highly touted junior, but arguably Fyfe was the kid prepared to crawl over broken glass to taste success. Fyfe has a Brownlow and Morton is no longer on an AFL list. I think the club is now onto this.

Thats why Watts is a dud it's amazing when you look at the 09 draft Martin wants it , JT unfortunately injured Scully B grade player, Gysberts Tapscott not good enough Nat taken in the pick 20 range it's what you do when you enter the door and guys like Watts can't do it.How many votes did as Scully get last night he was meant to be the next Judd.

That's what I love about Jack Viney.

I also love that Jack Viney is not Cale Morton

The problem is the 6-10 players that you're considering as best 22, are either performing poorly or make little impact. Watts, Garland, Lumumba, Howe, Dawes, Grimes and Jetta are all in that age bracket where you expect them to make an impact on the result of the game. Rarely did any of these players make an impact this year. Vanders was far more impactful, and is nowhere near "bottom depth" as you say.

Let's see Vanders make an impact in 2016, and ensure he's not depth by the end of the season. (Nb. I actually said he could be depth this time next year).

Reality is, most of those players you mentioned are depth as well, although I would argue that Jetta is by far our best small defender. But you are proving my point - when players like Watts, Howe, Lumumba and Grimes are our depth players, mainly because players like Vanders have gone ahead of them, we are starting to get decent depth. If we Vanders is playing poor and we can replace him with Lumumba, then we should see a more consistent team performance.

I'm talking about the club, not the players. They went out and got 2 free agents for nothing, both of whom made an impact in the finals. Richmond on the other hand, hardly changed their list, and learnt nothing from the previous year.

With regards to trading/free agency it's all about who's available. I'm surprised Richmond didn't chase Garlett. I think part of them not chasing was they were setting themselves for Treloar this year.

For each club learning is different. Richmond still managed to beat Freo/Hawthorn/Sydney. They were in their final for the first 3/4. I don't think it was personnel issues for them as much as it was mental. That's three first round exits in a row. Should they make finals again next year, regardless of who they bring in this year the pressure on them to win a final will be enormous.

I spoke with someone in our FD before the start of this season, and one thing he pointed out was that 2015 would be a bit rocky, mainly because the team had played bugger all footy together. However, he did say that 2016 was going to be the start of the exciting times for us (implying the team will know each other better after 12 months with each other).

Keeping that in mind, and the fact that we've had 6 players gone already, I'd be surprised if there will be too many more list changes, unless the "deal of a lifetime" comes up.

While we still need to remove a number of players to improve, we also need stability. The upside of keeping the likes of Matt Jones and Dean Terlich around for another season is that they will play a lot of footy at Casey in 2016, but if needed in the seniors, they will know the role they need to play, and will know the players around them. That's not to say they'll play that role well, but there were games this year where M Jones wasn't a liability.

Doing this will then see us needing to move only a handful on at the end of next season, giving all players the opportunity to develop as a team.

With AVB being upgraded, we have 5 spots on the list. I'd imagine we will be trying to get two players during the Trade/FA period that will be starting 18, leaving 3 spots to take to the draft. If we find other "starting 18" players wanting to join us, then the likes of MJones/Terlich will be pushed out, otherwise, they'll be with us in 2016.

Appreciate the info but you did say that was pre season. Fast forward 8 months and after insipid performances against Essendon and Carlton and I would be very surprised if another 6 aren't moved on. I agree about the stability and players being familiar which each but there's still 6-7 players who need to be removed in a hurry.

Obviously it's not as simple as that but the fact remains we had 4 chances to pick Fyfe which makes my blood boil. These recruiters need to be held accountable for the crucial decisions they make

Isn't losing your job was being held accountable?

It can you the shits all you like but that 09 is the reason the club failed yeah the first 2 for sure but the other 2 are laughable BP couldn't pick a colt from a filly.

Have a look at the players picked in 2009 from 1-20;

Scully - was always going to be pick 1

Trengove - barely been on the park

Martin - star

Morabito - unknown

Cunnington - starting to show good form

Rohan - not in Sydney's Top 10

Shepphard - solid without shining

Butcher - minimal impact

Moore - struggles to hold his spot

Melksham - good but not great

Gysberts - no comment

Lucas - bust

Talia - star

Jetta - inconsistent

Howard - delisted

Pittard - solid contributor

Menzel - could be anything

Tapscott - no comment

Griffiths - can't crack it consistently

Fyfe - star

Not many stars amongst them, a couple of unknowns due to injury (of which you have to include Trengove in that category).

A number of clubs had a bust in that first round, it's just a shame we had 2 outstanding duds. (I don't call Scully a dud - he'd be handy in our team at the moment, but not as handy as what we got for him).

Let's not also forget that BP picked up Gawn in the same draft, and Fitzy (not saying he was a star, but he was terribly managed in his time at the club).

Every time I open this thread I'm hoping to read news of another NQR having left the building.