On 13/05/2015 at 12:24, Macca said:

The issue the AFL have got is they probably have to wait until all this is over (unless they do opt out or restructure their current agreement with WADA in the meantime)

But if we assume they wait until all this is over, much will depend on whether there is a guilty or not guilty verdict anyway.

And then there's the penalties involved if there is a guilty verdict. And what if the public sentiment sways away from where it sits currently (if the details of the case paints the Essendon players in a different light)

There's still a lot to be played out yet. The AFL are almost duty bound to stay with the current agreement for the foreseeable future (in my opinion)

I do hope you are right.

I have lost respect for the AFL administration over its handling of the Essendon FC drug case. As it appears to me as if the AFL just wanted the issue to go away and is not that concerned about the possibility of illegal substances being used by club sanctioned supplement programs.

  On 11/05/2015 at 23:46, Dr. Gonzo said:

He was quoted as saying they didn't plan for this "what if" scenario as they thought it was over. What sort of governance is that! Bunch of arrogant idiots I really hope they get smashed the only worry is how long this will take to play out - another season with no result.

That's no worry, mate. Hope it lasts another two seasons. May as well shut the club down now. Fold.

  On 13/05/2015 at 11:24, Chris said:

Not sure WADA could rule on charges that have not been laid and been subject to the required process.

I think they can. Just because ASADA didn't run with AOD9604 and other drugs taken doesn't mean that WADA can't charge the players after investigating themselves. You could be right I am just surmising....

  On 13/05/2015 at 12:36, DemonFrog said:

I do hope you are right.

I have lost respect for the AFL administration over its handling of the Essendon FC drug case. As it appears to me as if the AFL just wanted the issue to go away and is not that concerned about the possibility of illegal substances being used by club sanctioned supplement programs.

you just worked that out, froggy?

  On 13/05/2015 at 11:43, Lucifer said:

An interesting update on the appeal:

-David Grace, QC...is required to recuse himself from the formal proceedings under Court of Arbitration for Sport rules.

-WADA has eight more days to submit its brief to the players’ lawyers, who will then have 20 days to respond.

-It emerged on Wednesday that any player wanting to end the saga and do a deal with ASADA had missed their opportunity.

-The saga is now tipped to drag on into 2016, overshadowing a fourth AFL season.

-Several other Australian CAS arbitrators have had involvement in the Essendon saga, likely ruling them out them from sitting in judgment on the matter. Malcolm Holmes, QC, Neil Young, QC, Hayden Opie,Brian Collis, QC.

-...CAS official Katy Hogg told the Herald Sun CAS can subpoena witnesses but warned of more local court action.

“If they refuse to collaborate, the CAS, like any arbitral tribunal in the world, would be obliged to seek the assistance of the competent state courts to have them testify,” Hogg said.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/david-grace-qc-unable-to-represent-essendon-players-against-world-anti-doping-agency/story-fni5f6kv-1227353891389

Better order heaps of that popcorn BB, it is going to be a long wait.

I never realised Neil had so many hidden talents!!! Go you crazy horse!.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRGbTIiOqNM

As I have said before on DL. Neil young is the perfect person to be involved. He's seen the needle and the damage done

Does anyone know who decides the penalty if they are found guilty. Is it CAS or would it revert back to the AFL Penalty hearing. Hope it's CAS

Surprisingly anti-Essendon article from a Fox affiliate!

http://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/robert-craddock-says-the-truth-of-the-essendon-doping-scandal-is-yet-to-be-uncovered/story-e6frf33l-1227352669865

Good read though, and gets to the crux of the issue. Just because we're sick of this scandal, doesn't mean it should just "go away" like the AFL/Essendon want it to. It needs a conclusion and there needs to be justice. Most of all, we need answers.

  On 13/05/2015 at 14:10, It said:

Does anyone know who decides the penalty if they are found guilty. Is it CAS or would it revert back to the AFL Penalty hearing. Hope it's CAS

CAS sentence the players, could be anything from 2 year bans to the whole team being banned.

CAS sentence the players, could be anything from 2 year bans to the whole team being banned.

And another interesting article from an unexpected source, Chip in The Australian:

WADA's appeal to place more faith in Dank's word

  Quote

"If a tribunal cannot be satisfied that someone who admits to taking Hexarelin from a vial marked Hexarelin after being told by a sports scientist it is Hexarelin has indeed taken Hexarelin, the task confronting anti-doping investigators verges on the impossible.  The standard of proof required for an anti-doping offence is comfortable satisfaction. WADA believes the AFL tribunal demanded way too much satisfaction. A brief statement posted on the Court of Arbitration for Sport website makes this clear: WADA requests that the CAS issue a new decision based on an appropriate burden of proof and evidentiary standards.

  On 13/05/2015 at 12:36, DemonFrog said:

I do hope you are right.

I have lost respect for the AFL administration over its handling of the Essendon FC drug case. As it appears to me as if the AFL just wanted the issue to go away and is not that concerned about the possibility of illegal substances being used by club sanctioned supplement programs.

Correct DF the day Andy left and Gil the Dill took over it has been a case of get the lowest possible sanctions.

The AFL is horribly conflicted and should never have been part of the judgment process.

Gil was stating their innocence before the decision was handed drown.

"Justice must not only be done but appear to be done"

Gil failed miserably on both counts.

WADA appeal against Essendon a 'witch hunt', claims lawyer

Graham Smith, a Melbourne lawyer believes that by exercising its lawful right to appeal the AFL Tribunal's decision in the case of the Essendon 34, WADA is engaging in a 'witch hunt'.

My response to that is that, just as there is "good" thymosin and "bad" thymosin, there are "good" witches and "bad" witches and if WADA is hunting for the "bad" guys in a quest to uncover the truth, then it's fulfilling its charter for the benefit of world sport and I'm all in favour.

  On 13/05/2015 at 16:06, bing181 said:

And another interesting article from an unexpected source, Chip in The Australian:WADA's appeal to place more faith in Dank's word

This goes to the heart of the reason for the appeal and it's a pity Chip used the example of Hexarelin rather than TB4 but, in any event, it should be clear that there is a strongly arguable case that the AFL Tribunal demanded the far stricter standard of proof being beyond reasonable doubt rather than that of comfortable satisfaction as required for an anti-doping offence even though it said it applied the latter standard. This is why Smith's comments on WADA's appeal are ludicrous.

Desperate stuff now from the golden boy.
Going with the old "Dog ate my homework" excuse.

  On 13/05/2015 at 14:10, It said:

Does anyone know who decides the penalty if they are found guilty. Is it CAS or would it revert back to the AFL Penalty hearing. Hope it's CAS

CAS will decide and be based upon WADA guidelines.

AFL has nothing to do with it now.......hallelujah

  On 13/05/2015 at 21:41, Fork said:

Desperate stuff now from the golden boy.

Going with the old "Dog ate my homework" excuse.

Then it will be......wasn't our dog.....we had a cat.......called Rover !!!

  On 13/05/2015 at 21:56, beelzebub said:

Then it will be......wasn't our dog.....we had a cat.......called Rover !!!

But surely then Tania would have taken notes ...

Is it possible ASADA didn't use all the evidence they had because they got an inclination they wouldn't get a fair trial and saved a trump card for wada?

  On 13/05/2015 at 22:18, Red and Bluebeard said:

But surely then Tania would have taken notes ...

....but wasn't smart enough to advise Jimmy to make a back up of everything that was handed over? I know she may not be the sharpest tool in the shed, but seriously could anyone be that stupid?

Bomber Thompson on AFL360 said he saw the Thymomodulin spread sheet. "On A3 paper the big one, an excel spreadsheet."

So in order to print an excel spreadsheet first it needs to be on a computer. If it was on a computer there should be copies.

Delloittes did a forensic search and collected copies of everything. Everything collected would have been documented.

My guess is that the "Hird dog ate my lunch document" was collected and exists. Also it is inconsequential to the case in that it was a draft cover up document or related to other supplements. Either way it is another red herring..

Edit: Or the EFC destroyed it. Which if it could prove their innocence would be ironic.

  On 13/05/2015 at 14:33, Lamashtu said:

Surprisingly anti-Essendon article from a Fox affiliate!

http://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/robert-craddock-says-the-truth-of-the-essendon-doping-scandal-is-yet-to-be-uncovered/story-e6frf33l-1227352669865

Good read though, and gets to the crux of the issue. Just because we're sick of this scandal, doesn't mean it should just "go away" like the AFL/Essendon want it to. It needs a conclusion and there needs to be justice. Most of all, we need answers.

CAS sentence the players, could be anything from 2 year bans to the whole team being banned.

WOW !!! where did that reasonable and honest appraisal come from. ??

It really shows up what a collaboration between the AFL and the EFC it has been to date to try to manage--the-damage !! Has been nothing about truth ,about responsibilities or even taking ownership of events. All about deflection and cover-up and BULLSHlT !!!

I sense another section of the media, having now smelled a good story, will start feeding out similar efforts. Then watch the public's tolerance for the Hird-Brigade wash down the drain. Whilst I note the general Aussie population has a capacity to back the 'under-dog" ( and by crikey these lots are dogs !! ) that teh public will side with some tilting at windmills, that theres a general distrust of authority ( well founded for mine ..lol ) that even with al of this there is no appetite in this country for CHEATS, LiARS and CHARLETONS. Oz loves a TAll Poppy to cut back down to size and little ol Golden Boy ( and mates ) have made themselves bigger than Ben Hur.

The Axe is coming !!!!

  On 13/05/2015 at 13:12, daisycutter said:

you just worked that out, froggy?

I am just a simple country Frog DC.

  On 13/05/2015 at 22:20, Sir Paul Roos said:

Is it possible ASADA didn't use all the evidence they had because they got an inclination they wouldn't get a fair trial and saved a trump card for wada?

More likely they were prevented from presented al lof what they had in a meaningful ( i.e was going to be listened to ) way !!!

Wouldn't it be funny if Essendon were innocent.

They had a program that may have been at the cutting edge but legal, after the AD tip-off they employed people to come in at midnight and destroy all the records.

Now they can't defend themselves. hahahahahhahahhahahahhh. I think that is better than if they did cheat. The players will be OK and the club cops it. Love it.

  On 13/05/2015 at 22:30, ManDee said:

Bomber Thompson on AFL360 said he saw the Thymomodulin spread sheet. "On A3 paper the big one, an excel spreadsheet."

So in order to print an excel spreadsheet first it needs to be on a computer. If it was on a computer there should be copies.

Delloittes did a forensic search and collected copies of everything. Everything collected would have been documented.

My guess is that the "Hird dog ate my lunch document" was collected and exists. Also it is inconsequential to the case in that it was a draft cover up document or related to other supplements. Either way it is another red herring..

Edit: Or the EFC destroyed it. Which if it could prove their innocence would be ironic.

Ive often thought this "spreadsheet" crap is/was just a ruse to deflect and provide quasi plausible deniability... Create a phantom, get people to buy into it, then have it unobtainable. Something akin to being told something then instructed to dismiss it. It cant be unheard.. Nor can this lot of cods-wallop be un-Hird !!

Any sensible person ( rule out about 90% involved in this ) would have used a record sheet with generics representing the different "good stuffs" . Then again Donk and Dummer thought they were all too clever. ALl that a spreadsheet could infer is some for of recording was used. WOW !! theres a paradigm shift in scientific procedure.. "Notes!!!"

What theyve cunningly tried to suggest is that if such a regime existed then we'd have records for it. i.e no records no regime. The logic doesnt hold for you could have done something and no notes, or you could have done another thing with or with out notes. I.e theres nothing about any of this records that is absolute...of itself

I brief sidestep into History... Who doubts the Pyramids exist ??? Show me the records and plans by which they were built ? My point being...you can not erase a value of what remains simply for the lack of something which doesnt. Does having no records , to show, mean nothing happened, or happen as one thinks in preference to another ?

The whole records business is for mine, a blind. Its classic smoke and mirrors stuff, bang-puff....look over here.....ahh but its really all happening over there etc

Time and time again I revert to my ol' mate Sherlock's reasoning "Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth"

Here we go to the notion...can they show they sought/supplied/used Thymodulin ? I would say NO. All roads lead to gaining access to THymosin. Its not that hard ......really !!!

This is a great article from journalist Sandra Olle (someone I haven't come across before at 'Foxtel'); http://www.theroar.com.au/2015/05/14/wadadya-think-going-happen-time-frame-essendon-saga-properly/

Extract:

- And with the introduction of WADA to the fray, the framing of the issue has once again changed. It’s now a David and Goliath battle as a team from Australia takes on a body that was founded in Lausanne, Switzerland, but now officially presides in Montreal, Canada.

Australia versus the world. No, Essendon versus the world. No, it’s got to be Hird versus the world.

I love the David and Goliath metaphor...hope Hird has his slingshot ready but alas medieval toys won't cut it!

Yes, Hird versus the world. Has a nice ring to it! All his media mates, stand-over men, lies and back room manipulations/intimidations can't help him now.

Despite my dark glee at Hird squirming, its time to get back to the really important and serious issue in this: I believe the players were naive, stupid and maybe a little complicit. But there is no way on God's earth that they deserve or should endure what is about to unfold. Sadly, they have no choice but to accept they have been mere pawns in a high-stakes power game. They will be the only real losers. Hard to imagine those young men are not feeling shattered. I wish them well in coping with what is about to unfold.