I'm not so sure. I think they should all get very serious punishments and so do most people I speak with. But that doesn't equate to "Intentional cheating".

I think history will remember them as "the players caught up in the Essendon supplements scandal" target than put them in the Justin Charles drug cheat category.

Justin Charles wanted to spill the beans way back when and the AFL didn't want to know about it. Similar story with Dale Lewis.

Is it possible to calculate the costs of the courts and lawyers involved so far?

Hird unlikely to win appeal.

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/james-hird-unlikely-to-win-but-players-will-be-cleared-says-david-galbally-20150120-12ua9u.html

Players of clubs talk to each other and several have mates and relatives at other clubs. Did not one Essendon player mention he was being asked to have 52 injections in his stomach to a player from another club? If not why not? Did not one player mention it to a parent/wife/girlfriend etc? If not why not?

surely one of them has a wife/girlfriend in the same mould of Tania Hird, who took lots of notes...

surely one of them has a wife/girlfriend in the same mould of Tania Hird, who took lots of notes...

Hopefully that mold was broken immediately the mistake was noticed.

Love the article in The Age today quoting Galbally saying the players get off for the same reason Lynch did in the 90's. Completely different situations, I don't think any Essendon players suffered Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and also weren't acting on doctors advice.

Love the article in The Age today quoting Galbally saying the players get off for the same reason Lynch did in the 90's. Completely different situations, I don't think any Essendon players suffered Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and also weren't acting on doctors advice.

I was thinking this exact thing while reading the particle. Shocked that the author didn't point out the massive difference in these two scenarios.

I found this part pretty interesting;

If there are mass suspensions, including about 20 current Essendon players, the AFL is likely to enact a doomsday scenario and allow the club to sign state-league talent.

"Ignorance is no excuse"

First rule of law

If and when found Guilty The Essendon Football Club and the 34 players will be remembered as Drug Cheats

They knew what was going on. All of them

Don't let bias media and fatigue of the story change your mind

Remember the Physical size of the essendon list in early 2012

They all knew....

"Mens rea" is another rule, meaning "guilty mind". Whether that concept is relevant to these proceedings like I understand it is for criminal matters, I'm not sure. If so, the question would have to be whether the Essendon players knew, or should have been expected to know, that what they were involved in might have been dodgy.

"Mens rea" is another rule, meaning "guilty mind". Whether that concept is relevant to these proceedings like I understand it is for criminal matters, I'm not sure. If so, the question would have to be whether the Essendon players knew, or should have been expected to know, that what they were involved in might have been dodgy.

Of course they would be expected to know... isn't awareness of what goes into their bodies a part of their induction training?

Of course they would be expected to know... isn't awareness of what goes into their bodies a part of their induction training?

Wholly agree with one proviso. What if they were told what was going into them via injection was "wholly legal beneficial vitamin which they confirmed with Doc Reid and ASADA" when in fact it was "Illegal dodgy factor X"?

Wholly agree with one proviso. What if they were told what was going into them via injection was "wholly legal beneficial vitamin which they confirmed with Doc Reid and ASADA" when in fact it was "Illegal dodgy factor X"?

Right, so Doc Reid should be deregistered.

Right, so Doc Reid should be deregistered.

Wow. That's a quantum leap.

If my doctor says I need an injection of cortisone and the nurse deliberately injects me with antibiotics instead, you think the doctor should be guilty?

Wholly agree with one proviso. What if they were told what was going into them via injection was "wholly legal beneficial vitamin which they confirmed with Doc Reid and ASADA" when in fact it was "Illegal dodgy factor X"?

This is what Galbally seems to be assuming. A fair bit might turn on it in relation to penalties, but I doubt that it's going to be enough to make the Lynch case the sort of precedent he's suggesting might influence the guilt/innocence question.

Love the article in The Age today quoting Galbally saying the players get off for the same reason Lynch did in the 90's. Completely different situations, I don't think any Essendon players suffered Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and also weren't acting on doctors advice.

How would Alistair have fared under the WADA code . . couple of years I suspect!!

My understanding is that in the ASADA interviews the players were asked what they were injected with etc. and if they recall certain substances being mentioned etc.

I suspect that ASADA has most of the pastures on record saying "thymosin sounds familiar" (or similar) and "no I'm not sure which type of thymosin" and "no I've never heard of thymoddulin" etc.

The player interviews will be used I bet.

Dodging penalties by saying "But I was told it was OK by our doctor" is a recipe for rampant drug cheating. Sadly for the naive, deaf or inattentive, it can't be used as an excuse. It can be used to hang the doctor however.

Love the article in The Age today quoting Galbally saying the players get off for the same reason Lynch did in the 90's. Completely different situations, I don't think any Essendon players suffered Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and also weren't acting on doctors advice.

Completely different anti doping rules in place, different burden of proof. Surprised Galbally would offer such an opinion in those circumstances.

Surely, he's aware of the WADA Code and the AFL's anti doping policy?

No?

Love the article in The Age today quoting Galbally saying the players get off for the same reason Lynch did in the 90's. Completely different situations, I don't think any Essendon players suffered Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and also weren't acting on doctors advice.

So do self interested player agents and lawyers like Galbally. Eventually this facade will be exposed. To compare the Lynch situation to the systematic doping at ESSENDON across a whole team over many months is ludicrous. It may well be that the AFL Tribunal gives out no penalties to players, but this will only ensure the penalties handed out by CAS after the WADA appeal will be all the more severe.

Still let them live in their self delusion. I'm sure it gives them comfort until the bomb goes off!

Completely different anti doping rules in place, different burden of proof. Surprised Galbally would offer such an opinion in those circumstances.

Surely, he's aware of the WADA Code and the AFL's anti doping policy?

No?

You would certainly think so WJ. Maybe he is just milking it for all it's worth. I know the people I know at the Victorian bar who don't have a slice of the Hird/EFC/Little/AFL gravy train are seriously [censored] off. Maybe he is just wanting to milk it just a little longer, or he is just an attention getter. Either way, it makes no difference.

Galbally "quote"

What Holmes will be able to prove is the purchase by [compound pharmacist Nima] Alavi of thymosin beta-4 and maybe the purchase by Dank of thymosin beta-4. But whether they can take it to the next step of showing whether it has gone to Essendon and then gone to the players, is another thing. That ultimately is the question. That is the evidentiary problem I see ASADA have got."

I am I wrong.?

ASADA doesn't have to prove the players took the injection of Thymosin - Beta 4. The Players have to prove they didn't by association.

My understanding is that in the ASADA interviews the players were asked what they were injected with etc. and if they recall certain substances being mentioned etc.

I suspect that ASADA has most of the pastures on record saying "thymosin sounds familiar" (or similar) and "no I'm not sure which type of thymosin" and "no I've never heard of thymoddulin" etc.

The player interviews will be used I bet.

If Asada can demonstrate that TB4 made its way to the club and the players signed consent forms listing Thymosin I would think the onus would be on the players to prove that TB4 was not used, e.g. Disprove its supply or prove that it was destroyed.

How would Alistair have fared under the WADA code . . couple of years I suspect!!

Yep that's of course the other variable. WADA code not adopted til 2006.

Wow. That's a quantum leap.

If my doctor says I need an injection of cortisone and the nurse deliberately injects me with antibiotics instead, you think the doctor should be guilty?

When running a programme as 'cutting edge' as this he should have been all over it. Instead he says he wrote a memo that was never received (dog ate my homework) and thousands of injections were carried out at a clinic across the road supposedly under his watch.

Yeah I reckon he should be deregistered..

Wholly agree with one proviso. What if they were told what was going into them via injection was "wholly legal beneficial vitamin which they confirmed with Doc Reid and ASADA" when in fact it was "Illegal dodgy factor X"?

IIRC "The Doctor was not in" and had questioned the Coach (via a handy letter/email). http://www.afl.com.au/news/2013-08-21/full-text-of-dr-bruce-reids-letter

Doc Reid may still have to answer for something regardless of his legal play stop the AFL action early in the piece. As club doctor if the players go down it looks pretty bad for him regardless of whether he wrote to Hird questioning him about off site injections and the questionable substances being used or not. He could of (and should have) advised the players not to take anything from the start.

In relation to any deals it may be a too Little too late. The Infraction Notices are out after being reviewed by all and sundry and I reckon they have a mounted a pretty good case. funny how the case is being heard and players now want to cut deals. What substantial assistance would ASADA need for them to consider reduction in penalty? If I was ASADA I would offer no deals as the time for deals was when you were investigating. It would have to be something mighty incriminating against their former team mates to warrant reduction.

Finally if you make a conscious choice to inject sunstances into your body without questioning any thing were you Duped or are you just not that bright? Players can only argue no fault only if they were unconcious or a substance was put in against thier will. Signing a waiver to be injected with a substance for a period of weeks away from the club smacks of complicincy more then anything else.

Give them 2 years already so we can get to all of the appeals.