THE ESSENDON 34: ON TRIAL

[ManDee 7,091]

Yes i know the above. But again none of the above means they did not keep any records, which is the line the media and many others have been spinning. I have searched and have yet to find any official statement from ASADA, EFC or the AFL that they had no records.

From :- http://www.afl.com.a...-of-charges.pdf

By reason of the matters referred to in paragraphs (a) to (o) above:

(i) players were administered substances that were prohibited by the AFL Anti-Doping Code and the World Anti-Doping Code; alternatively

(ii) the Club is unable to determine whether players were administered substances prohibited by the AFL Anti-Doping Code and the World AntiDoping Code.

As to "Not keeping adequate records". We bought 1000 vials of Thymothingamy and gave it to.. some players. Not sure who got what.

For all intents and purposes that is no records.

[nutbean 8,837]

For all intents and purposes that is no records.

you can't argue with intensive porpoises.

[jnrmac 19,205]

For me, the intriguing part is why Dank has come out and said this now. It seems like he is just dropping Essendon in it, but there is presumably more to it than that. Nothing in the article says that he doesn't have a copy of the records kept, only that they were left at Essendon. It seems too far-fetched for me that someone like Dank would leave all that behind and not keep a copy himself. But why weigh in now? Has someone come after him asking for records?

Intriguing. Maybe he has been staying at arms length on the promise of a pay off and the faustian pact is falling apart?? Cary conspiracy theory but its all pretty weird....

[jnrmac 19,205]

Essendon have said...there are no records

Paul Little " we don't know what the players were given but we know they haven't taken ahnything illegal"

Bill Shorten " I don't know what the Prime Minister said but I agree with her"

Neither was really believable was it??

[binman 38,828]

not funny if youre lazy.just saying

Theres much out there to find...we do

my search..same paremeters...4th item

Charges AFL.com

Yes, yes i have read the charges. To be clear they do not state no records were kept, which is the line being pushed and swallowed. Perhaps some are too lazy for independent thought?

You maintain that Essendon has said they have no records. Prove it.

Edited March 2, 2015 by binman

[jnrmac 19,205]

Question. Can someone explain why any ban on Watson and Fletcher should be backdated to the International Rules game instead of the last game the EFC played. Not only were they not playing for Essendon, arguably they weren't even playing an AFL game. I just don't understand the argument.

A bit like representing your country at athletics. If you are banned from your local comp you shouldn't be able to represent your country at a meet.

(edit bad typo!)

Edited March 2, 2015 by jnrmac

[binman 38,828]

By the by. EFC dispute much of what was in the charge sheet. The EFC negotiated a penalty and the charges were never tested.

[ManDee 7,091]

Yes, yes i have read the charges. To be clear they do not state no records were kept, which is the line being pushed and swallowed. Perhaps some are too lazy for independent thought?

You maintain that Essendon has said they have no records. Prove it.

Binnie I think you are taking "no" too literally.

If a record exists that they bought Thymo????? then records exist.

The point is that the club were unable to tell what the players were given. So in effect no records if we presume a record is a medical record see :-

Wikipedia:-

The terms medical record, health record, and medical chart are used somewhat interchangeably to describe the systematic documentation of a single patient's medical history andcare across time within one particular health care provider's jurisdiction.^[1] The medical record includes a variety of types of "notes" entered over time by health care professionals, recording observations and administration of drugs and therapies, orders for the administration of drugs and therapies, test results, x-rays, reports, etc. The maintenance of complete and accurate medical records is a requirement of health care providers and is generally enforced as a licensing or certification prerequisite.

If that is a definition of a medical record it is fair to so no records.

[deefrag 277]

By the by. EFC dispute much of what was in the charge sheet. The EFC negotiated a penalty and the charges were never tested.

That is correct:

"In the Deeds of Settlement, the AFL acknowledges that neither Essendon Football Club nor any of the individuals charged set out to implement a supplements program that would result in players being administered prohibited or potentially harmful substances."

http://www.essendonfc.com.au/news/2013-08-27/statement-chairman-paul-little

[binman 38,828]

Binnie I think you are taking "no" too literally.

If a record exists that they bought Thymo????? then records exist.

The point is that the club were unable to tell what the players were given. So in effect no records if we presume a record is a medical record see :-

Wikipedia:-

The terms medical record, health record, and medical chart are used somewhat interchangeably to describe the systematic documentation of a single patient's medical history andcare across time within one particular health care provider's jurisdiction.^[1] The medical record includes a variety of types of "notes" entered over time by health care professionals, recording observations and administration of drugs and therapies, orders for the administration of drugs and therapies, test results, x-rays, reports, etc. The maintenance of complete and accurate medical records is a requirement of health care providers and is generally enforced as a licensing or certification prerequisite.

If that is a definition of a medical record it is fair to so no records.

Mandee you are probably right. I'm not arguing that their records are woeful. What i'm saying is that for months (now years?) there seems to be this general acceptance that the EFC have no records and that is the line that is being pushed. Why i ask? What is the motivation?

I suspect that as you say the records are perhaps shoddy but i very much doubt ASADA have not been able to find incriminating records and that their case includes reference to them

[Its Time for Another 4,054]

Yes, yes i have read the charges. To be clear they do not state no records were kept, which is the line being pushed and swallowed. Perhaps some are too lazy for independent thought?

You maintain that Essendon has said they have no records. Prove it.

Bin, it stands to reason that if they had records that recorded what the players were given and it proved it was legal, then they would never have had to self report and go through this whole sorry saga. Alternatively if the records showed that what they took was illegal then they would have moved straight to sanctions and would have most likely been back playing at the beginning of last season having served 6mth bans negotiated on full co operation.

The fact that neither of these has happened tends to show there were no records at all or no records that recorded what they were given.

[jnrmac 19,205]

By the by. EFC dispute much of what was in the charge sheet. The EFC negotiated a penalty and the charges were never tested.

Those charges were never for illegal drugs. They were for bad governance. I would like to know if they do get done ofr drugs whether the AFL can have another crack at them. And demand Hird was sacked, and the board etc etc...

[ManDee 7,091]

Mandee you are probably right. I'm not arguing that their records are woeful. What i'm saying is that for months (now years?) there seems to be this general acceptance that the EFC have no records and that is the line that is being pushed. Why i ask? What is the motivation?

I suspect that as you say the records are perhaps shoddy but i very much doubt ASADA have not been able to find incriminating records and that their case includes reference to them

The media tends to be expedient when it comes to language and sometimes the truth.

So, no is an expedient way of explaining insufficient or inadequate. In this case literally it could be misleading but contextually I think it is ok.

[old dee 22,951]

Those charges were never for illegal drugs. They were for bad governance. I would like to know if they do get done ofr drugs whether the AFL can have another crack at them. And demand Hird was sacked, and the board etc etc...

Don't hold your breath jnr.

The AFL will have sanctioned the Club and players.

They simply do not want to break the club it is not in their interest

[binman 38,828]

The media tends to be expedient when it comes to language and sometimes the truth.

So, no is an expedient way of explaining insufficient or inadequate. In this case literally it could be misleading but contextually I think it is ok.

Yes, good points well made. I guess i suspect the confusion has been driven by the EFC spin machine - perhaps to put the blame on the big bad Danks, something he is now pushing back on

[jnrmac 19,205]

Don't hold your breath jnr.

The AFL will have sanctioned the Club and players.

They simply do not want to break the club it is not in their interest

Sadly...

[ManDee 7,091]

Yes, good points well made. I guess i suspect the confusion has been driven by the EFC spin machine - perhaps to put the blame on the big bad Danks, something he is now pushing back on

If Danks wanted to push back he has been given plenty of opportunity. I don't think he has anything which would help his case. At this point I think he is a loose cannon. Essendon probably have a few of those roaming around, ex players, ex employees, disenfranchised current players the list goes on. Self interest is probably all that is holding the ship together at the moment, but I imagine when it starts to really go pear shaped there will be missiles from all directions.

[daisycutter 28,639]

i always thought the inference was that essendon claim they don't have the records of the supplement program because danks (dean robinson) would have had them

now danks is saying they were kept on the club's computer

suspect they are both not telling the whole truth and doing a lot of finger pointing

[binman 38,828]

i always thought the inference was that essendon claim they don't have the records of the supplement program because danks (dean robinson) would have had them

now danks is saying they were kept on the club's computer

suspect they are both not telling the whole truth and doing a lot of finger pointing

Good call DC. The simplest explanation is usually the right one

[Red and Bluebeard 2,044]

or...he does have records but they dont exonerate anyone !! He thought Tymosin was ok...remember..just saying

If his records actually highlight what was taken and they arent Kosher...well..... he continues his line of bullshlt.

Hes playing the strawmans defence !!

I think that is it, BB. If producing them proves guilt left, right and centre, well ... they tend to stay hidden.

[Red and Bluebeard 2,044]

Intriguing. Maybe he has been staying at arms length on the promise of a pay off and the faustian pact is falling apart?? Cary conspiracy theory but its all pretty weird....

I wouldn't say it is crazy, but I get the feeling there is a lot more behind the scenes, along the lines of what you said. Whether this comes out soon, or ever, is another story ...

[beelzebub 22,269]

The fact that neither of these has happened tends to show there were no records at all or no records that recorded what they were given.

or no records of anything LEGAL being given

The records that did exist dont suit the Clubs stance so therefore , amazingly, disappeared...i.e dont exist.

In plain-speak the club can not/will not produce any records of a defined program utilising legal supplements.

[Wolfmother 182]

The last few pages shows how people get so attached to their opinion that even a general question is shouted down. I don't know if it's if because people would feel silly of there opinion ibeing proven wrong but it's amazing how it occurs.

Binman it has never been stated that there is no records and I was the one that posted it 100 pages ago that there are records. The myth has been picked up by the media and now is given as fact with this information starting from the statements that essendon couldn't be sure what they gave the players. This statemt was a responsible to the question regarding the Mexican drugs injected prior to the Anzac game

Essendon have never corrected the error as it works for them otherwise they could be asked to explain what was given if it was known they had records.

The AFL charges that everyone has referenced is about governance and poor auditing, incomplete records, source locations not listed etc which means that you need to have records not to have complete ones. Here is an article that references a spreadsheet that EFC submitted as evidence so it shows the no records might be a media furphy repeated multiple times which had turned it into fact.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/sport/afl/evidence-omitted-from-asada-report-on-dons/story-fnca0u4y-1226707923613

There are records in ASADAs evidence from EFC just the quality is the issue. Although some people are asking why wouldn't this be finished if they had records essendon. EFC are arguing the thymosin listed in the records/consent forms is short for Thymodulin not thymosin beta 4, which seems to me a stretch that you would be shortening something by two letters. This is why the ASADA has been providing so much evidence regarding the supply chain for the drugs. EFC admit to taking thymosin but are claiming its not the illegal one which ASADA is demonstrating the only thymosin at EFC is TB4.

[beelzebub 22,269]

OK...lets put it nicely for you Wolfy

There are no records of anything legal being used.

[Wolfmother 182]

As you would expect from an illegal drug problem.

The fact is that records exists including the records of players receiving thymosin injections. Essendon also has records of injections of amino acids which could refer to anything and one of a number of reasons their records were deemed inadequate. If ASADA proves that the only thymosin essendon had at windy hill was TB4 it's game over

Edited March 2, 2015 by Wolfmother