Dees woes could be in their head

[chookrat 4,268]

To mix things up we should use Spencer to do the kick ins and JKH in the ruck.

[KingDingAling 3,758]

The lads are doing well - given the talent that is out there.

It isn't in their head, we just haven't go the cattle.

Matty Jones was only a solid VFL player when he came in.

His skills last year looked better than 70% of our list - it has nothing to do with mind set.

Thank god for Paul Roos, because getting players like Vince and Tyson in - has boasted our talent by 50%.

Most of our players aren't mentally stifled, they are just not that talented - and not that aggressive.

Jones will lead the way, Viney, Tyson and Hogan all have big future, that will improve the side, let the media preach that Roos improved our mindset.

Roos would know better.

[old dee 23,880]

The lads are doing well - given the talent that is out there.

It isn't in their head, we just haven't go the cattle.

Matty Jones was only a solid VFL player when he came in.

His skills last year looked better than 70% of our list - it has nothing to do with mind set.

Thank god for Paul Roos, because getting players like Vince and Tyson in - has boasted our talent by 50%.

Most of our players aren't mentally stifled, they are just not that talented - and not that aggressive.

Jones will lead the way, Viney, Tyson and Hogan all have big future, that will improve the side, let the media preach that Roos improved our mindset.

Roos would know better.

I agree 100% a list devoid of real talent is the problem.

[DeeZee 7,445]

It is in their head.

Your telling me they cant take a simple chest mark, or miss a 30 metre pass by 5 metres?

They do it at training all the time.

I saw them all pre season and their skills were fine.

Even Bernie vince commented that he was impressed and surprised at the skill and fitness level.

They showed it against richmond , and for two quarters against Geelong.

Its mental alright, and the sooner we unlock the key the better.

[Ted Lasso 19,549]

I reckon ENYAW's woes could be in his head.

[daisycutter 29,757]

I agree 100% a list devoid of real talent is the problem.

sadly it does seem that way

[old dee 23,880]

It is in their head.

Your telling me they cant take a simple chest mark, or miss a 30 metre pass by 5 metres?

They do it at training all the time.

I saw them all pre season and their skills were fine.

Even Bernie vince commented that he was impressed and surprised at the skill and fitness level.

They showed it against richmond , and for two quarters against Geelong.

Its mental alright, and the sooner we unlock the key the better.

DeeZee training is like dancing with your sister.

I have seldom watched a side anywhere that don't look good at training.

A large number don't have the required skill level required at the top level of the game.

IMO it is that simple.

[Sir Why You Little 37,195]

DeeZee training is like dancing with your sister.

I have seldom watched a side anywhere that don't look good at training.

A large number don't have the required skill level required at the top level of the game.

IMO it is that simple.

then how did they become first round draft picks?

It's all about attitude and application. Last sunday showed me that. Our list doesn't value the club when the heat is applied hard. They value a salary.

After Schwab left i was hoping this would not be an issue. It still exists.

If we get slammed by GW$ on sunday i will have lost all hope for these players (excluding new recruits) turning anything around.

Its in the head.

[DeeZee 7,445]

DeeZee training is like dancing with your sister.

I have seldom watched a side anywhere that don't look good at training.

A large number don't have the required skill level required at the top level of the game.

IMO it is that simple.

Have to disagree here, thats why i gave the examples of what Vince said and the geelong and richmond game.

If they cant hack the pressure in a "real" game, then it is because of their state of mind, mental pressure, or perceived pressure.

[old dee 23,880]

then how did they become first round draft picks?

It's all about attitude and application. Last sunday showed me that. Our list doesn't value the club when the heat is applied hard. They value a salary.

After Schwab left i was hoping this would not be an issue. It still exists.

If we get slammed by GW$ on sunday i will have lost all hope for these players (excluding new recruits) turning anything around.

Its in the head.

Lots of first round draft picks don't make it wyl

We just seem to have the happy nack of picking a higher percentage than most.

Also we have had very few seasoned players to support the kids.

When we started flinging seasoned players at the end 2007 and replacing them with kids we started down a track that has lead

Directly to the disaster that is our list.

[old dee 23,880]

Have to disagree here, thats why i gave the examples of what Vince said and the geelong and richmond game.

If they cant hack the pressure in a "real" game, then it is because of their state of mind, mental pressure, or perceived pressure.

I can see we are not going to agree on this DeeZee but lets continue.

The Richmond game was a typical practise match affair. I doubt the Tigers we geared up like us and we caught them on the hop.

Since then it has been back to the required AFL skill level.

Geelong saw that half heart would not get it done at half time and then just up the level a bit and won.

Then we saw how good we really were against the Hawks.

Repeated again on Sunday.

As soon as the other 17 sides get serious and put some pressure on our real skill level is exposed.

You cannot make silk purses out of sow's ears IMO

I would truly love your theory to be correct but I see almost no evidence to support it.

[Sir Why You Little 37,195]

Lots of first round draft picks don't make it wyl

We just seem to have the happy nack of picking a higher percentage than most.

Also we have had very few seasoned players to support the kids.

When we started flinging seasoned players at the end 2007 and replacing them with kids we started down a track that has lead

Directly to the disaster that is our list.

No. All first round draft picks can play the game.

It is how far they wish to push themselves that is the key.

Our boys are lazy. Watch Mr Watts dropped chest mark last sunday.

LAZY.

[old dee 23,880]

No. All first round draft picks can play the game.

It is how far they wish to push themselves that is the key.

Our boys are lazy. Watch Mr Watts dropped chest mark last sunday.

LAZY.

It is possible to be lazy and not good enough at the same time wyl.

I just don't see that they are good enough.

We have Been this way for now into our fourth year under three different coaches.

They are just not good enough.

[Sir Why You Little 37,195]

It is possible to be lazy and not good enough at the same time wyl.

I just don't see that they are good enough.

We have Been this way for now into our fourth year under three different coaches.

They are just not good enough.

It's too easy to be dismissive like that OD. 2-3 on our list i will agree. The rest are mentally weak who have little pride in the organization they are paid by.

[DeeZee 7,445]

I can see we are not going to agree on this DeeZee but lets continue.

The Richmond game was a typical practise match affair. I doubt the Tigers we geared up like us and we caught them on the hop.

Since then it has been back to the required AFL skill level.

Geelong saw that half heart would not get it done at half time and then just up the level a bit and won.

Then we saw how good we really were against the Hawks.

Repeated again on Sunday.

As soon as the other 17 sides get serious and put some pressure on our real skill level is exposed.

You cannot make silk purses out of sow's ears IMO

I would truly love your theory to be correct but I see almost no evidence to support it.

I dont think we will agree and thats ok.

Watts kicking was sublime against richmond and st kilda and we know someone like Toumpas has good kicking skills, as does Vince for example.

Enough evidence.

Skills ,and big game pressure by being unable to execute ,are two different things, which gets us back to the original topic, its all in the head.

I do understand what your saying though its skills under pressure and i agree, but to lack the basic skills of taking a chest mark and missing a team mate by five metres is just not on.....lets hope we get better old Dee.

Edited April 4, 2014 by DeeZee

[dpositive 1,743]

I will add to my training report and in saying i agree with deeZee thats its in the head.

How about we get a training report that says we saw the intensity of a match applied during training.

So what if we get more injuries due to hard contact, we seem to be getting them anyway.

I recall reading of comments from players trying to break into Hawthorn sides years ago that they were regularly ironed out at training by an incumbent determined to hold their spot in the team against an obvious challenger.

Execute skills at training under pressure and you are more likely to execute them under pressure in a match.

I hope Roosy is working on that head space.

[sue 9,146]

I reckon it has to be a mixture of skill and mindset. Ask most VFL level players to show the same skills as are reported as being on display at our training sessions and they will probably not do as well. There must be a basic level of skill in our players but they can't handle the pressure, both physical and mental. And once the confidence goes and players start second guessing everything they do, disaster follows.

To say Watts' dropped chest-mark is laziness is silly. How is that lazy? He got there and tried to catch the damn thing which he has done a million times. Either it was a freak accident or much more likely it was all in his mind, wondering how bad he'll look if he drops it, first chance of a goal for a team under the pump, mind in a spin, etc. Mental pressure that destroys concentration.

There are many sports where people stuff up by doing exactly what they are telling themselves to avoid doing. Coaches say concentrate on doing it, not what could go wrong, because if you do the latter, it will. Footy is no different with dropped marks, bad short passes etc.

[Sir Why You Little 37,195]

I reckon it has to be a mixture of skill and mindset. Ask most VFL level players to show the same skills as are reported as being on display at our training sessions and they will probably not do as well. There must be a basic level of skill in our players but they can't handle the pressure, both physical and mental. And once the confidence goes and players start second guessing everything they do, disaster follows.

To say Watts' dropped chest-mark is laziness is silly. How is that lazy? He got there and tried to catch the damn thing which he has done a million times. Either it was a freak accident or much more likely it was all in his mind, wondering how bad he'll look if he drops it, first chance of a goal for a team under the pump, mind in a spin, etc. Mental pressure that destroys concentration.

There are many sports where people stuff up by doing exactly what they are telling themselves to avoid doing. Coaches say concentrate on doing it, not what could go wrong, because if you do the latter, it will. Footy is no different with dropped marks, bad short passes etc.

Sue it's lazy. He had no opponent and the eyes were down.

Basic skills cannot be excused otherwise the last 7 years will just continue.

[sue 9,146]

Sue it's lazy. He had no opponent and the eyes were down.

Basic skills cannot be excused otherwise the last 7 years will just continue.

I think we have a different definition of the word 'lazy'. You seem to mix skill and laziness as if they are interchangeable.

I should have added to my earlier mail that I'm not saying that we have the skills of say Hawthorn whose kicking is scary, just that the problem of poorer skills is compounded by the mind.

[old dee 23,880]

I dont think we will agree and thats ok.

Watts kicking was sublime against richmond and st kilda and we know someone like Toumpas has good kicking skills, as does Vince for example.

Enough evidence.

Skills ,and big game pressure by being unable to execute ,are two different things, which gets us back to the original topic, its all in the head.

I do understand what your saying though its skills under pressure and i agree, but to lack the basic skills of taking a chest mark and missing a team mate by five metres is just not on.....lets hope we get better old Dee.

Re the last seven words ( I can never work out how to highlight on this bloody iPad )

Every time I say we could hardly get worse we do .

Yes I do DeeZee

[daisycutter 29,757]

i don't care whether it is in their heads or their bollocks i just want it fixed

[Return to Glory 8,448]

The Dees players could be overawed by past and current coaches Bailey was premiership player,Neeld came from a premiership team as an assistant and Roos is a premiership coach.High standards set might be too difficult to achieve.

Where do we go from hear, 800 plus disposals; 10 goals in two matches along with players unable to take simple chest marks,tackling almost non existent ,passing the ball to fellow team mates below par etc. The club could bring in

Evans,Blease and Kent .These guys haven't played senior footy this year.Why not pick Viney ( not likely to happen).Perhaps Roos will have to change the position of some players so as to minimise over use of the ball,improve defence and

forward areas and most minimise player stupid errors. For a long time I thought Watts and Pederson would step up…… nothing like wishful thinking……. wheres the SHIRAZ!!!!!

This is my radical team for this week assuming GAWN is on leave.

FF Spencer ( doesn't need to worry about passing the ball off)

FP JFH,NATHAN JONES

CHF TERLICH,DUNN,HOWE

C KENT,VINCE,TYSON

CHB GRIMES,TOM MAC,BLEASE

BP CROSS,TRENGROVE

FB FRAWLEY

RUCKS FITZY,WATTS,EVANS interchange byrnes,salem,?,? GO THE DEES

Stunning. Grandmaster at work.

[Demon Dynasty 17,109]

Lots of first round draft picks don't make it wyl

We just seem to have the happy nack of picking a higher percentage than most.

Also we have had very few seasoned players to support the kids.

When we started flinging seasoned players at the end 2007 and replacing them with kids we started down a track that has lead

Directly to the disaster that is our list.

OD i noticed that a "MACCA" has liked your post....purely coincidence i'm sure

Edited April 4, 2014 by Rusty Nails

[Demon Dynasty 17,109]

I will add to my training report and in saying i agree with deeZee thats its in the head.

How about we get a training report that says we saw the intensity of a match applied during training.

So what if we get more injuries due to hard contact, we seem to be getting them anyway.

I recall reading of comments from players trying to break into Hawthorn sides years ago that they were regularly ironed out at training by an incumbent determined to hold their spot in the team against an obvious challenger.

Execute skills at training under pressure and you are more likely to execute them under pressure in a match.

I hope Roosy is working on that head space.

There was a full hit out scratch match for over an hour at training today DP so your wish might be coming true.

[Demon Dynasty 17,109]

ENYAW i think there is much truth to this but i also think it lies somewhere "between the ears" and what OD is alluding to ie., that you can't make a silk purse etc.

Apart from their inability/lack of coolness/awareness under heat to execute under pressure, there are some major issues the bulk of our team just hasn't shown, not since at least 2006 or so anyway. There have been some minor break outs, where i've seen signs, like the first 15 minutes or so of the first quarter against the Saints this year and one other match where we almost beat the Saints going back a year or 2 (can't recall which year or round but it was under Neeld's nightmare reign).

1. We haven't been able or capable of producing the shear all out animal aggression and attack on the ball and ball carrier that we see from many of the top teams on a regular basis that pressures them into regular turnovers (this could be a youth issue but hey, i feel that's a cop out...the Saints were as inexperienced as us!).
2. This is very much linked to the above, we just don't hunt the footy or opposition in numbers like other top teams do, nor do we run in waves from the back half, nor spread quickly enough from stoppages, nor lead up and back enough to provide targets further up the field like top teams do over the course of a match for at least roughly 3 out of the 4 quarters (ie., enough of it to ensure they have a good chance of staying in a game or winning it).
3. We don't take enough risks in play generally. That is, we prefer to try and maintain possession. There's very few desperation acts ( such as punching/kicking/slapping ball forward along the ground or at a ball up contest). Nor do we run the ball (bouncing) and drawing the opposition to create the overlap all that often (the stats so far this season bear that out). Given we don't yet have the precision skills by foot when looking to break the press, this usually results in most possessions being either a switch kick to an easy free man, either sideways or backwards in the back half, or a quick panic handball (often when under little or no pressure) to basically anyone within cooee, even if he is standing still or about to be wrapped up, often resulting in a turnover and quick fast break goal/score to the opposition.
4. We seem to rarely cover the sweeper (+1) effectively in the center bounce, which usually allows that free man (should he gain first possession) an easy first disposal, which will then more often than not result in a quick pass, bomb or running play forward into our defensive 50, placing huge pressure on our defense too often when there's a center bounce. The opposition often manage to knock it towards (or we knock it towards) their sweeper. I have yet to see us effectively cover the +1 through the middle. This scenario also plays out in ball ups/stoppages around the ground at times (but not all the time, sometimes we manage the +1 or +2 and win the contests around the ground, but not very often and less so through the center bounce). Usually we just don't match up effectively at stoppages and lose the numbers game, often resulting in first clean possession/clearance by the free man or men, and hence sometimes an easy score by the opposition as they run away from stoppage. I would suspect most of goals scored against us are from center bounce clearances, and turnovers in our back half.

The mental area that concerns me is our inability (seemingly) to convert the mind. To become the HUNTER.... and not the hunted.

We have done nothing in the last 7 seasons and now 2 matches, to warrant being the hunted, so i'm not sure why they appear (at least from what i can see) to be in that mode on game day.

Maybe some of them, with the usual exceptions like the Jones Boy, just couldn't give a damn and are happy to take their pay cheque each week?

One thing i know for sure, unless we somehow mentally switch on to become the HUNTER and Roos/Jones somehow bring out the animal aggression in this mob, this team will remain at or near rock bottom.

P.S. IMO we also lack one more extractor in the stoppages to assist Jones, Cross and Vince on the rotations. Hopefully Viney can become the 4th man here. And to pull off a Geelong fast break overlap style of attack we're going to need some decent toe and passing by foot in this team. Hopefully the changes this week will help a little in that regard. Once we're playing this overlap style effectively and for approx 80% or so of game time, instead of possession style from last 2 weeks for about 80% of game time and we get a Hogan and Dawes into the mix, i believe we will start to show some major improvement on the scoreboard and might even win the odd match against lessor opponents. Maybe even one or 2 surprises later in the season against the odd middle rung team.

Edited April 4, 2014 by Rusty Nails