So when I go to the doctor for my flu shot and he gives me something else it's my fault?

I don't see it your way. People rely on professional, the young footballers relied on professionals. They were duped.

So was the 16 year old Bulgarian weightlifter.

Did she deserve the gold medal more than the one who came second in competition and was clean?

i thought the professional advice (Doctor) at essendon was against the "pharmacological experiment"

And he should never set foot in a medical surgery again. I might add, that's the view of many many medical professionals as well.

What is irrational about punishing a person who takes illegal drugs in sport and blames it on another's poor advice or judgment?

I don't want more punishment I want clean sport.

IMO that day has gone Redleg.

The best we can hope for is to stop / catch as many as possible.

The financial rewards are such now that people will attempt to gain advantage from Drugs and there will be plenty who will aid them for the same reasons.

The genie is out of the bottle.

So was the 16 year old Bulgarian weightlifter.

Did she deserve the gold medal more than the one who came second in competition and was clean?

Jack it's sad you equate this to winning and losing. It's about peoples health and it's about their reliance on professional advice in a professional environment in a group situation.

I'm surprised you can't see the difference but we can just differ. I don't think like you.

Well others can rejoice in the punishment of players if it happens and when the first one is diagnosed with cancer they can say "at least he was punished before he went".

Dramatic but that is potentially what people are arguing. It's sick. If it was your son Redleg, how would you feel if he'd been poisoned by these dopes and then was punished.

Buger the law.

If it was my son as you ponder, I would be raising hell in the media, the Courts, wherever, I wouldn't be protecting his club. I might also drop a few people.

Don't assume because I am arguing an issue with you, that I don't have the same sympathy for the players, I do, maybe more.

I have attacked Essendon supporters over the disgusting way their club has treated its players and not once referred to punishment. I am not concerned with punishment per se, but stopping drugs in sport.

My overwhelming concern has always been with the player's health and even that of their unborn children. This was a disgusting episode of total lack of care for the players all to win more games of football.

The argument we are having is about controlling drugs in sport, not the victimisation of a group of Essendon players.

What I am saying is that if you can blame another for your drug use, everyone will do it and how do you then have clean competition? A rational answer to that will happily have me agreeing to letting the Bomber players off.

And he should never set foot in a medical surgery again. I might add, that's the view of many many medical professionals as well.

maybe, but it does weaken the player's claim of accepting "professional" advice when their own doctor was against it

we are led to believe that not one player sought any outside independent advice and they even signed a waiver....quite an amazing display of innocence

contrary to what some posters say at least quite a few of these players would have been very knowledgeable about wada/asada protocols

....and a lot of these players were not "kids".

david zaharakis says hi

david zaharakis says hi

didn't he claim the only reason he didn't partake was a fear of needles?

what is your point?

As Zaharakis' manager, former Essendon player Scott Lucas, confirmed that his client baulked at receiving regular injections because "he doesn't like needles", Ings dissected the development from a strict anti-doping view.

Ings said Zaharakis' position would have been of great interest to ASADA as it investigated the Bombers, adding that it was revealing culturally.

Ex-Bomber Mark McVeigh has said as many as four Essendon players did not take part in the routine injecting. Fairfax Media understands there were three, including 2011 club champion Zaharakis.

McVeigh said the players did not take part because of their fear of needles, rather than any objection to the program.

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/zaharakis-refusal-may-sting-players-20130801-2r2bc.html#ixzz2vcT1jPDO

What I am saying is that if you can blame another for your drug use, everyone will do it and how do you then have clean competition? A rational answer to that will happily have me agreeing to letting the Bomber players off.

Punishing innocent victims will never solve the issue of drugs in sport, you need to punish those that made concious decisions to take banned drugs or cause others to take banned drugs.

IMO, and it's just that, the Essendon players were innocent of knowingly taking banned drugs and when they asked trusted professional people in a professional environment (or one they should have been able to trust) they were told there was "no problem". I know the mother of one of the players. He was duped.

Anyway I've made my point. Cheers

my point is that for whatever reason david zaharakis refused to be in the program.
He had final say in what was injected or not injected into his body.

He took responsibility for it.

It is no defence to the AFL, ASADA or WADA codes for the player to be ignorant of the fact that the substance or treatment used was prohibited. If it can be shown within the scope of the burdon of proof (which is between reasonable doubt and the balance of probabilities) that the players took or intended to take banned substances then they are gone, as are the officials under rule 8.

The waivers rather than being an excuse are proof of negligence.

BB you express sympathy for the players and many of us share and understand that concern. But the result of not penalising them is that future drug cheating will be encouraged and other players will be sucked into drug cheating/experimentation. They don't have names yet, but they deserve your sympathy too. And there would be many more of them.

Jack it's sad you equate this to winning and losing. It's about peoples health and it's about their reliance on professional advice in a professional environment in a group situation.

I'm surprised you can't see the difference but we can just differ. I don't think like you.

This thread is several months old and covers nearly 150 pages in which I have dealt many times with the issue of the health of the players and their reliance on "professional" advice which needs to take into account that these players signed waiver agreements that mentioned the taking of drugs that were, with a few exceptions, not vitamin supplements. That issue is certainly an important one in the context of the debate and one which raises obvious concern for the participants (willing or unwilling, informed or uninformed) but it does not absolve the players from responsibility and sanction which is what I've been addressing in the posts immediately above and which you think is "sad".

It was you who stated in your first post today that you "hope the players get off". I believe that would achieve exactly what the spin doctors operating on Essendon's behalf are seeking to achieve by playing the sympathy card and they've managed to get a lot of people, including yourself, hook line and sinker.

That's sad.

It was you who stated in your first post today that you "hope the players get off". I believe that would achieve exactly what the spin doctors operating on Essendon's behalf are seeking to achieve by playing the sympathy card and they've managed to get a lot of people, including yourself, hook line and sinker.

So the clean athletes will suffer.

I have a friend who supports the Blues (yes I know ). He remembers them giving Essendon hell on two occasions in 2011 only to find when they played them the following year the Bombers had all put on bulk and weight far beyond what would normally be expected by a clean programme involving weights only.

That's 2012. The players didn't know the drugs on the waiver form were making them bigger than everyone else and they were all so very innocent?

my point is that for whatever reason david zaharakis refused to be in the program.

He had final say in what was injected or not injected into his body.

He took responsibility for it.

Just waiting for a photo of him at the blood bank giving blood to blow the scared of needles story out of the water

Only if the answer is no case to answer R and B

Not so sure, OD. If there is a case to answer the legal wranglings alone will drag on for years ...

essendon should be relocated lock stock and barrel to the big river in north africa

I think it is the opposite, DC -- they need someone to lead them as far away as possible from denial (although not necessarily into a wilderness for forty years).

Not so sure, OD. If there is a case to answer the legal wranglings alone will drag on for years ...

That is true but if there is no case to answer the howls will go on for years.

Most on here want blood and lots of it.

"We want the good stuff, we are playing Carlton this weekend" James Hird

Yeah, they have been treated unfairly. ha.

Those who might think Im playing heavy handed might just want to consider the actual actions of essendon

They set out deliberately to EXPERIMENT with drugs more commonly used on non humans and known to be banned for human use ( whether they cop to acknowledging it or not )

They didnt and still dont know what outcomes good or bad or what longer term harm , indeed danger players given into their care may incur.

Thats heinous. Its actually beyond comprehension in this day and age in these circumstances that they could set out on this course.

To say they didnt set out to harm is somewhat incredulous Im afraid for they had no idea of outcomes so they were /are in no position to guarantee anyones safety or health. That is grossly negligent. I would imagine that its only a mm away from actually being criminal.

These people ought to be in jail...not just slapped on the wrists or banned from sport.

Human experimentation in the post WW2 era is just beyond belief -- properly conducted medical research trials are exhaustively vetted by hospital ethics committees and scrupulously recorded, so bear no resemblance to these cavalier experiments by those who just wanted to gain unfair advantage.

Interesting talking to an Essendon supporter yesterday spinning the story that ASADA have stuffed up etc. his point was that even a murder trial doesn't run this long. My point was that it's not a trial, it's an investigation and some murder investigations last many years.

Too many people, including Essendon supporting journo's have some fixation on the time the investigation is taking. I know it would be good to have everything wrapped up so we can get on with the new season but life doesn't work that way. Not everything can be packaged up neatly.

Exactly

i thought the professional advice (Doctor) at essendon was against the "pharmacological experiment"

IF Doc Reid had said to the players "this substance is approved for human use and/or is WADA approved" then the players may have a defence, of sorts. But there is no suggestion at all that he did. Had he done so he would be pilloried, rightly, by AHPRA and I suspect be guilty of criminal negligence.

Good point Mono. Concernining Dr. Reid.

He was there. He could have easily had one on ones with each player.

Would not have taken long. Unless Dank was cutting him out.

Yep ol Doc Reid was/is so disgusted by it all he now works for.........................

People rely on professional, the young footballers relied on professionals.

The young footballers ARE professionals.

Why do they look like they are singing from the same Hymn book?

Robbo has been cheerleading for the bombers but after naming the 12 essendon players in the HUN Robbo was given a bit of a whack. He did bite back saying he couldn't understand why some are angry at Journo's,ASADA and the AFL but the people who injected essendon players with whatever they took are not being scowled at. Robbo might have seen the light.

Good point Mono. Concernining Dr. Reid.

He was there. He could have easily had one on ones with each player.

Would not have taken long. Unless Dank was cutting him out.

How come Doc Reid didn't get the stuff checked out?

How come Doc Reid did not demand to be informed of everything to do with the whole prgram? Oh thats right, Its Hird again. The messiah.

Reid should have gone and the ONLY reason he didn't go is that he was prepared to go to trial and Demetriou would have been sunk....