Bombers scandal: charged, <redacted> and <infracted>

[Whispering_Jack 28,118]

The basic concern of the ACC is the importation of prohibited substances into the country, the control and sale of them once they enter and the influence of criminal elements in corrupting society. Match fixing is one of the areas under close observation. In the course of it all, the link was found to two of our major codes and there's a common denominator there with one person who has yet to be interviewed by ASADA. Stephen Dank's evidence, if he ever gives it should be illuminating.

[Dees2014 2,377]

And your source is?

WADA, and their local associates operate that way worldwide - it is a thorough and diligent process, and WADA has successfully appealed against local rulings by the local bodies more than a dozen times world-wide. It was set up that way to prevent local corruption. There is nowhere for the bombers to hide.

My source is reading the extensive material now available and reading between the lines of the WADA/ASADA releases. I also have a friend who is a QC who has operated in this area in the past. He has no doubt the Bombers are in for heavy penalties from ASADA/WADA, and can't see how they can possibility escape penalties given what is already on the public record. He said from his legal sources, the view is that the infraction notices will be lodged before Xmas.

Nothing is guaranteed, but based on past events and what is already on the public record it is very likely in my view. The bit about the litigation to follow is what usually happens in these cases, and there is rarely such a blatant example of negligence of a sporting body to its players as in the Essendon case, although clearly Essendon will fight that every step of the way.. You would be staggered if at least some did not take legal action, and if some do then most probably they all would do together.

It is also a reason why the MFC should not deal with Essendon until this becomes a lot clearer. The last thing we should do is sign a contract with an ex Essendon player which will be binding on the MFC, for either picks or players (or both), and then have someone on our books who is suspended for between 2 & 4 years. We will not be able to replace them. It would be very very costly for us.

[sue 8,592]

WADA, and their local associates operate that way worldwide - it is a thorough and diligent process, and WADA has successfully appealed against local rulings by the local

It is also a reason why the MFC should not deal with Essendon until this becomes a lot clearer. The last thing we should do is sign a contract with an ex Essendon player which will be binding on the MFC, for either picks or players (or both), and then have someone on our books who is suspended for between 2 & 4 years. We will not be able to replace them. It would be very very costly for us.

Which makes me suspect that the AFL is underwriting Essendon trades in some way - eg. if you take a player who is subsequently banned we'll give you a PP in 2014. But if the AFL has said that privately to clubs, it is surprising that it has not leaked out. I've not followed trading closely - has Essendon made any yet?

[Dees2014 2,377]

All speculation at this stage. Hopefully it means we are not involved. Wonder if, given Neil Craig's inside knowledge of the dees list, if he will make a play for any now that he is Don's assistant coach. I'd be surprised if he didn't.

If you were him, who would you target? Fitz is the obvious one I bet. He will know how incredibly hard he trains, how quick he is for someone 6'6", and his history of illness (now over thank god).

It is a classic inside trade. I really hope we don't fall for it!

Edited October 12, 2013 by Dees2014

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

My source is reading the extensive material now available and reading between the lines of the WADA/ASADA releases. I also have a friend who is a QC who has operated in this area in the past. He has no doubt the Bombers are in for heavy penalties from ASADA/WADA, and can't see how they can possibility escape penalties given what is already on the public record. He said from his legal sources, the view is that the infraction notices will be lodged before Xmas.

Nothing is guaranteed, but based on past events and what is already on the public record it is very likely in my view.

So your source does not actually have any inside information but is reading between the lines and the "extensive material" available (where on the public record?). And there is not enough public evidence atm to tie unequivocally that the certain players took certain substances. This saga has had a lot of smoke but we are still waiting for the fire.

And its does not get past the big issue that unless ASADA can on the evidence they have collected tie the supplements to injection records (that dont see to exist) and/or reliable and knowledgeable statements (that seem to be in short supply), I am not sure anyone can make statements for certain as to whether infraction notices will be issued.

I would have thought that issuing infraction notices without strong evidence will result in such notices being thrashed in Court. And your QC mate's opinion does not validate anything here.

He like any of us have no idea of the situation at the moment and its purely speculative to cast firm judgments on what will happen.

All speculation at this stage.

That I agree with.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Wonder if, given Neil Craig's inside knowledge of the dees list, if he will make a play for any now that he is Don's assistant coach. I'd be surprised if he didn't.

If you were him, who would you target? Fitz is the obvious one I bet. He will know how incredibly hard he trains, how quick he is for someone 6'6", and his history of illness (now over thank god).

It is a classic inside trade. I really hope we don't fall for it!

I'd be more surprised if he did.

Given Essendon have a bevy of talls to the extent they would be possibly off loading rather recruiting.

No Name Games Age Date of Birth Height Weight Origin Position 19 Hille, David 197 32yr 4mth 2 Jun 1981 202cm 108kg Dandenong Stingrays Forward

Ruck 2 Bellchambers, Tom 61 24yr 3mth 9 Jul 1989 202cm 110kg Tassie Mariners Ruck 6 Daniher, Joe 5 19yr 7mth 4 Mar 1994 201cm 94kg Calder Cannons Forward 22 Carlisle, Jake 49 22yr 1 Oct 1991 200cm 98kg Calder Cannons Defender 31 Fletcher, Dustin 378 38yr 5mth 7 May 1975 198cm 93kg Western Jets Defender 30 Ryder, Patrick 149 25yr 6mth 14 Mar 1988 197cm 94kg East Fremantle Forward

Ruck 26 Hooker, Cale 88 24yr 11mth 13 Oct 1988 197cm 98kg East Fremantle Defender 3 Gumbleton, Scott 35 25yr 2mth 3 Aug 1988 197cm 99kg Peel Forward 37 Gregory, Sean 0 19yr 8mth 20 Jan 1994 196cm 76kg Calder Cannons Defender 18 Hurley, Michael 79 23yr 4mth 1 Jun 1990 195cm 97kg Northern Knights Forward

While Hille will retire, they have Gumbleton that surplus and then have to work out how they play Ryder, Bellechambers, Hurley and Daniher in the one team.

No room for Fitzpatrick there.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Which makes me suspect that the AFL is underwriting Essendon trades in some way - eg. if you take a player who is subsequently banned we'll give you a PP in 2014. But if the AFL has said that privately to clubs, it is surprising that it has not leaked out. I've not followed trading closely - has Essendon made any yet?

Maybe because there is no truth in it Sue.

[sue 8,592]

Maybe because there is no truth in it Sue.

Probably not. But do you know if Essendon has made any trades yet? If they had I'd be a little more inclined to believe it because I can't see any other club touching them with a 10 foot pole otherwise. (Unless they had knowledge of what ASADA may/can do.)

[Dees2014 2,377]

So your source does not actually have any inside information but is reading between the lines and the "extensive material" available (where on the public record?). And there is not enough public evidence atm to tie unequivocally that the certain players took certain substances. This saga has had a lot of smoke but we are still waiting for the fire.

And its does not get past the big issue that unless ASADA can on the evidence they have collected tie the supplements to injection records (that dont see to exist) and/or reliable and knowledgeable statements (that seem to be in short supply), I am not sure anyone can make statements for certain as to whether infraction notices will be issued.

I would have thought that issuing infraction notices without strong evidence will result in such notices being thrashed in Court. And your QC mate's opinion does not validate anything here.

He like any of us have no idea of the situation at the moment and its purely speculative to cast firm judgments on what will happen.

That I agree with.

Well let's see, given past practices there is more than enough evidence. There have been infraction notices issues on a lot less evidence than has come out at Essendon, let alone what was gathered by the ACCC which has never been made public and is available to ASADA and WADA, which is rumoured in legal circles to be very damning.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Probably not. But do you know if Essendon has made any trades yet? If they had I'd be a little more inclined to believe it because I can't see any other club touching them with a 10 foot pole otherwise. (Unless they had knowledge of what ASADA may/can do.)

I think the air of uncertainty and the absence of their main coach is a powerful disincentive for either EFC or another club to enter a trade.

There was a discussion about Crameri to WB at one stage.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Well let's see, given past practices there is more than enough evidence. There have been infraction notices issues on a lot less evidence than has come out at Essendon, let alone what was gathered by the ACCC which has never been made public and is available to ASADA and WADA, which is rumoured in legal circles to be very damning.

Now you are speculating again about the level of evidence.

And its not clear as to the availability of ACC (ACCC looks at business competition regulation!) evidence to ASADA, the quality of it and its applicability to individual EFC players. As Jack pointed out above.....

The basic concern of the ACC is the importation of prohibited substances into the country, the control and sale of them once they enter and the influence of criminal elements in corrupting society. Match fixing is one of the areas under close observation. In the course of it all, the link was found to two of our major codes and there's a common denominator there with one person who has yet to be interviewed by ASADA. Stephen Dank's evidence, if he ever gives it should be illuminating.

If the ASADA with help from ACC is likely to bust anyone chops its likely to be Stephen Danks.

And I would not rely on the so called "rumours" in legal circles. They are no more believable than the rumours on the Demonland trading forum.

I still dont understand why you were so absolute in your claims in Post # 1626 as you have provided little but hearsay and rumour to substantiate.

The future may prove you right but at this stage its clear you dont know whats going to happen. I dont know and the vast majority of footy world does not either.

And FWIW, I have been amazed at the lack of leaks from ASADA over the course of this long investigation.

They have been under soooo much scrutiny so far and whatever their decisions they will be under heavy judgment and criticism.

[jnrmac 19,480]

And FWIW, I have been amazed at the lack of leaks from ASADA over the course of this long investigation.

They have been under soooo much scrutiny so far and whatever their decisions they will be under heavy judgment and criticism.

Maybe you are calibrating your expectations on the AFLs behaviour

I'd suggest ASADA and WADA run tighter ships.

[Whispering_Jack 28,118]

Now you are speculating again about the level of evidence.

And its not clear as to the availability of ACC (ACCC looks at business competition regulation!) evidence to ASADA, the quality of it and its applicability to individual EFC players. As Jack pointed out above.....

If the ASADA with help from ACC is likely to bust anyone chops its likely to be Stephen Danks.

And I would not rely on the so called "rumours" in legal circles. They are no more believable than the rumours on the Demonland trading forum.

I still dont understand why you were so absolute in your claims in Post # 1626 as you have provided little but hearsay and rumour to substantiate.

The future may prove you right but at this stage its clear you dont know whats going to happen. I dont know and the vast majority of footy world does not either.

And FWIW, I have been amazed at the lack of leaks from ASADA over the course of this long investigation.

They have been under soooo much scrutiny so far and whatever their decisions they will be under heavy judgment and criticism.

I checked Post # 1626 and I wasn't the author but I do agree with the view that there's a strong possibility of multiple infraction notices issuing to both NRL and AFL players over the supplements scandal.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Jack I quoted you to highlight the role of the ACC relative to ASADA.

My discussion was with Dees2014.

There is no doubt a possibility based on what is public that infraction notice could be issued. But its not the certainty that Dees2014 has stated in post #1626. And his basis of making that statement is all rumour

I'd suggest ASADA and WADA run tighter ships.

Ahhh, thats my point......

[Whispering_Jack 28,118]

And so it goes ... on and on.

No room for Dank to take a breath just yet

[Crompton's the man 635]

And so it goes ... on and on.No room for Dank to take a breath just yet

....... but they don't interview him and baulk at laying charges?

[beelzebub 22,703]

....... but they don't interview him and baulk at laying charges?

It's odd isnt it !! What is it thats stopping ASADA. The intrigue is huge. Something very peculiar about all this.

Something or rather someone seems (must be) conflicted.

[Whispering_Jack 28,118]

It's odd isnt it !! What is it thats stopping ASADA. The intrigue is huge. Something very peculiar about all this.

Something or rather someone seems (must be) conflicted.

The article ends this way:

Punishment of Sharks officials under the NRL doping code, mirroring AFL action against Essendon, is a possibility. NRL boss Dave Smith will not rule this out, confirming his integrity unit has gathered evidence. As for infraction notices against players, former ASADA chief Richard Ings tweeted: ''It's not a case of if, it's a question of when and how many.''

Not much doubt in Ings' mind.

[beelzebub 22,703]

As they say...Christmas is coming !!!

[DemonFrog 1,347]

As they say...Christmas is coming !!!

ROFL too much information!

One of my best mates surname is Christmas LOL

[hardtack 10,186]

ROFL too much information!

One of my best mates surname is Christmas LOL

First name Lloyd?

[M_9 1,823]

On Wed Sept 25th I was in Spain reading the HUN on-line. It was about 4pm local time - midnight in Oz.

There was a front-page article saying that four Essendon 'officials' (Hird, Corcoran, Dank, Robinson) would get a life ban from all sports for trafficking, and 12 players would be served infraction notices.

Some hours later all record of the article had been removed.

Similarly, on the 3AW website there was the text of Caroline Wilson's comments on the same topic, basically saying the same thing. She may well have been parroting the HUN article. That item was similarly removed a few days later.

Both items may have been removed following a statement by WADA head John Fahey, along the lines, I think, that it was a case of journos speculating.

[Deeman 1,426]

On Wed Sept 25th I was in Spain reading the HUN on-line. It was about 4pm local time - midnight in Oz.

There was a front-page article saying that four Essendon 'officials' (Hird, Corcoran, Dank, Robinson) would get a life ban from all sports for trafficking, and 12 players would be served infraction notices.

Some hours later all record of the article had been removed.

Similarly, on the 3AW website there was the text of Caroline Wilson's comments on the same topic, basically saying the same thing. She may well have been parroting the HUN article. That item was similarly removed a few days later.

Both items may have been removed following a statement by WADA head John Fahey, along the lines, I think, that it was a case of journos speculating.

You had me then till I reached the part about a Wilson article being withdrawn.

Does she ever admit to being wrong about anything?

[Dees2014 2,377]

It's odd isnt it !! What is it thats stopping ASADA. The intrigue is huge. Something very peculiar about all this.

Something or rather someone seems (must be) conflicted.

There is nothing unusual about this. It took 3 years for USADA(the US equivalent) to land Armstrong. It takes time to gather foolproof evidence, particularly in the face of an uncooperative foe such as Armstrong and Essendon.

This of course bit Armstrong in the bum in terms of his penalty, as it will do with Essendon. The only way they can have their minimum sentences reduced is to show full cooperation. They are the opposite of this, and with minimum standard penalties about to go from 2 to 4 years, and eventually for life, the longer they fight it, the more likely they are to get harsher penalties.

We should not touch Essendon player with a barge pole. it is simply too risky.

[bing181 8,355]

There is nothing unusual about this. It took 3 years for USADA(the US equivalent) to land Armstrong.

Another good example is Jan Ulrich. Stopped from riding (withdrawn from TDF) in July 2005, but wasn't charged until 2012.

Big wheel keeps on turning ....