I see your point. Space and Sal cap. But I think in tappies case why not keep him if trade interest is poor to see if he can finally come on.

I think any strategy of a club pushing out quality older players on the assumption that their younger players will come on or that they will draft well (saints, Geelong) has the potential to go the way of the Dees circa 07-13 if they don't nail it. Have always preferred the idea of making younger players break into quality sides myself.

What's the point in pushing for trades for Jamar and tappscott if they are given away for unders? Or little interest?

There was pretty much no interest in either, so it was a futile exercise trying to get a trade. All this speculation on who will pick at 9? Freeman and that's it, end of conversation...unless of course he is picked beforehand.

The reason they are so strong is because of their culture and players moving on at the right time. Ottens, Harley, Scarlett, Ling, Mooney ect all knew when it was there time. Yes Chapman played well in the finals but he struggled all year to play. Cats have some good kids who were in and out of the side this year. If they are forced to wait another year for regular opportunitys they might look to get a game elsewhere. Which ever Scott brother is coaching the cats said before he got the job he intended to turn the list over on a regular basis to remain competitive. On the flipside look at Malthouse....

There was pretty much no interest in either, so it was a futile exercise trying to get a trade. All this speculation on who will pick at 9? Freeman and that's it, end of conversation...unless of course he is picked beforehand.

Hence the conversation continuing...

Hence the conversation continuing...

Yeah I agonised befoe adding that last phrase!

I think regardless, the Saints have had a fair trade period, 3 top 20 picks, out with McEvoy and Dal Santo, in with Savage, Delaney, Longer...

McEvoy apparently has the worst tap to advantage record in the AFL, and Hickey is probably their number 1 ruck, so getting Longer isn't a bad move by any stretch.

Surely no ones tap to advantage record could be worse than Jamar's? He get leather poisoning to the left hand, yet none of our midfielders around him do.

They predicted Zak Jones to go Geelong with pick 16. Is he that good?

He'll slide we'll past 40 now that his drinking and gambling habits have come to light.

Surely no ones tap to advantage record could be worse than Jamar's? He get leather poisoning to the left hand, yet none of our midfielders around him do.

Correct Moon (first time ever). In his All Aus year he managed to hit Moloney regularly. However, all he has done since is hit to his toes. It's quite amazing really because he can do some great body work to get the tap but then, it is simply wasted.

Let's move forward with Spencer and Gawn.

I see Colin Sylvia’s exit as a loss and consider him worth circa pick 15 in this draft. The Bernie Vince exchange is a slight loss for the Dees IMO.

I don't see how any lucid thinker can argue Sylvia is better than Vince.

Vince is clearly a more natural and better mid, whereas Sylvia is a more damaging high half-forward with the occasional run on the ball.

Vince has won a B&F in a side that finished 5th and Sylvia's best finish is 5th in a side that is regarded as having one of the worst midfields in the history of the game and finished 17th.

Over their careers Vince has averaged 21 disposals and Vince 17. Sylvia has kicked more goals due to positioning.

Vince is a better decision maker and a better kick.

Vince isn't a high accumulator and nor is Sylvia.

In what world do we "slightly lose" ?

Edited October 28, 201311 yr by Ben-Hur

Surely no ones tap to advantage record could be worse than Jamar's? He get leather poisoning to the left hand, yet none of our midfielders around him do.

That was not so with Maloney. They were universally regarded as the best clearance combination in the AFL, and were directly responsible for Jamar winning All Australian selection.

It is also a bit mystifying why Brisbane don't recruit Jamar to re-ignite that combination

In what world do we "slightly lose" ?

In the world where Sylvia is one pre-season away from a brownlow and he's still going to turn out like Mark Ricciuto.

Salary cap/list space. Jamar has a two years to run on his deal which is another Neeld blunder.

Neeld may have or have not been many things but I dont think he oversaw contracts

I don't see how any lucid thinker can argue Sylvia is better than Vince.

Vince is clearly a more natural and better mid, whereas Sylvia is a more damaging high half-forward with the occasional run on the ball.

Vince has won a B&F in a side that finished 5th and Sylvia's best finish is 5th in a side that is regarded as having one of the worst midfields in the history of the game and finished 17th.

Over their careers Vince has averaged 21 disposals and Vince 17. Sylvia has kicked more goals due to positioning.

Vince is a better decision maker and a better kick.

In what world do we "slightly lose" ?

Actually Ben I believe 2014 was the year where Col would have had opportunity to shine. You're right his best pos is high half forward. Unfortunately we expected/ needed him to be a key forward in the past. With the arrival of Hogan, and if our other big forwards are fit, I could picture Col doing serious damage as either a leading forward, a crumbing forward or simply someone who knows how to kick a goal while drawing the fourth defender.

I regretted him going for "what might have been". Of course it is, sadly, only speculation

Vince isn't a high accumulator and nor is Sylvia.

That was not so with Maloney. They were universally regarded as the best clearance combination in the AFL, and were directly responsible for Jamar winning All Australian selection.

It is also a bit mystifying why Brisbane don't recruit Jamar to re-ignite that combination

No they weren't.

I can't remember Colin ever being played as a key forward.

Next year has been Sylvias best year for the past 8 years. Good to see that the tradition continues.

That was not so with Maloney. They were universally regarded as the best clearance combination in the AFL, and were directly responsible for Jamar winning All Australian selection.

It is also a bit mystifying why Brisbane don't recruit Jamar to re-ignite that combination

Possibly D2014, but IIRC that was one short lived season, and mostly against similar or lower placed sides. I don't believe MOloney scored well in the Brownlow against top 6 sides that year. Flat track bully? And Jamar has had one year out of 10 where he's performed as we would expect from the 1st ruck. They should have been our 'Cox and Kerr combo' by now.

Possibly D2014, but IIRC that was one short lived season, and mostly against similar or lower placed sides. I don't believe MOloney scored well in the Brownlow against top 6 sides that year. Flat track bully? And Jamar has had one year out of 10 where he's performed as we would expect from the 1st ruck. They should have been our 'Cox and Kerr combo' by now.

I did not suggest that WE should recruit them - simply thatbinwas surprised that the Lions didn't show any interest given their current challenges.

The reason they are so strong is because of their culture and players moving on at the right time. Ottens, Harley, Scarlett, Ling, Mooney ect all knew when it was there time. Yes Chapman played well in the finals but he struggled all year to play. Cats have some good kids who were in and out of the side this year. If they are forced to wait another year for regular opportunitys they might look to get a game elsewhere. Which ever Scott brother is coaching the cats said before he got the job he intended to turn the list over on a regular basis to remain competitive. On the flipside look at Malthouse....

On the flip side when Dean Bailey felt that Junior McDonald should be moved on at the age of 33 and with hamstring issues, certain people pilloried the club and condemned the administration for doing so. Meanwhile, nobody over at the Western Bulldogs said "boo" when the Bulldogs moved Daniel Cross on at 30.

I don't see how any lucid thinker can argue Sylvia is better than Vince.

Vince is clearly a more natural and better mid, whereas Sylvia is a more damaging high half-forward with the occasional run on the ball.

Vince has won a B&F in a side that finished 5th and Sylvia's best finish is 5th in a side that is regarded as having one of the worst midfields in the history of the game and finished 17th.

Over their careers Vince has averaged 21 disposals and Vince 17. Sylvia has kicked more goals due to positioning.

Vince is a better decision maker and a better kick.

Vince isn't a high accumulator and nor is Sylvia.

In what world do we "slightly lose" ?

IMO you underestimate how difficult it is to play in a diabolical side, particularly at half forward. Sylvia will be a star at Freo because the ball will be in their forward half more than 25-30% of the time.

Judging the two on average Supercoach points per year, which IMO is a very good objective measure, shows the two are close, with Sylvia having a slight edge.

http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/pu-melbourne-demons--colin-sylvia

http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/pu-adelaide-crows--bernie-vince

It will be interesting to see how Vince goes in a poor side and I hope you are right.

On the flip side when Dean Bailey felt that Junior McDonald should be moved on at the age of 33 and with hamstring issues, certain people pilloried the club and condemned the administration for doing so. Meanwhile, nobody over at the Western Bulldogs said "boo" when the Bulldogs moved Daniel Cross on at 30.

Remember the majority of the condemnation occurred in hindsight. Most others didn't mind too much and I was one of them. I had faith in Bruce, Green, Moloney, Davey and Sylvia though.

I really thought Green would prove handy at half forward with spurts on the wing. Moloney and Davey would continue the thunder and lightning set up they had where Moloney won the clearances and Davey carved teams up with ball use. Both were 25 possession a game mids in 2010. Plus McKenzie, Morton, Trengove, Scully had great promise and Sylvia looked like the wheel was turning. Bruce led the backline and along with Grimes, Rivers, Joel Mac, Frawley and Garland looked like a reliable back 6 with plenty of young talent in the wings. The forward line was the biggest shambles of the lot.

Either way with Cross gone the dogs rely on Cooney, Griffen, Murphy, Minson, Boyd and Morris. That's probably more solid than the experience we left behind.

What the administration should've noticed was that the older players they were leaving in the post Junior period were the same guys as young players who took a team with some quality talent (Neitz, White, Yze, Robbo, Trap, Brock McLean) and couldn't propel it any better than 1 finals win. Plus those guys they learnt from like Yze, Trav Johnstone, Robbo were very talented and worked very hard no doubt but never reached the level I think some of them could've. Jeff White and Trav Johnstone and 2 guys who could've been superstars of the game or the club at least. Instead they'll go down as decent contributers but that's about it.

IMO you underestimate how difficult it is to play in a diabolical side, particularly at half forward. Sylvia will be a star at Freo because the ball will be in their forward half more than 25-30% of the time.

Judging the two on Supercoach points, which IMO is a very good objective measure, shows the two are close, with Sylvia having a slight edge.

It will be interesting to see how Vince goes in a poor side and I hope you are right.

Sylvia will be a better player at Freo than here that's for sure. But I agree he's a half forward. And a nice half forward is a handy player to have but what we need right now are midfielders.

For a guy who has the build and physical tools Sylvia was dead hopeless at clearances. This year he's learnt how to tackle and opponent but is still second to the ball. Vince isn't a clearance specialist but can provide something there. I'll also back Vince to accumulate more quality possessions through the back half and middle of the ground. Not to mention he'll kick to forwards much better. Sylvia was great if the ball was 90 out and you wanted a long bomb to your key forward. Went pretty well if 60 out and a goal on the run was needed. He burnt off 2 defenders and kicked a left foot goal this year that was amazingly good. But the opportunity wasn't there for that this year too often.

Sylvia's best games, often against a young inexperienced Richmond team involved him looping in to the midfield then getting possessions and heading toward 50. We dont need that player right now. We need the guy who will run in the midfield, win some clearances, gather the ball on the wing and move the ball maintaining possession and work to defense to help clear the ball out. That's Vince >>> Sylvia any day.

On the flip side when Dean Bailey felt that Junior McDonald should be moved on at the age of 33 and with hamstring issues, certain people pilloried the club and condemned the administration for doing so. Meanwhile, nobody over at the Western Bulldogs said "boo" when the Bulldogs moved Daniel Cross on at 30.

Different story; the doggies have another couple of 30+'s in Boyd and Gia, in the end they couldn't justify another one in Cross unless they were a contender next year. Even the Cats who are contenders have had to make room on their list or would have lost a couple of good kids like Smedts and Horlin-Smith.

On the flip side when Dean Bailey felt that Junior McDonald should be moved on at the age of 33 and with hamstring issues, certain people pilloried the club and condemned the administration for doing so. Meanwhile, nobody over at the Western Bulldogs said "boo" when the Bulldogs moved Daniel Cross on at 30.

That's what happens when you lose - anybody can look back at the past and choose anything they like and say it was a mistake

Remember the majority of the condemnation occurred in hindsight. Most others didn't mind too much and I was one of them. I had faith in Bruce, Green, Moloney, Davey and Sylvia though.

I really thought Green would prove handy at half forward with spurts on the wing. Moloney and Davey would continue the thunder and lightning set up they had where Moloney won the clearances and Davey carved teams up with ball use. Both were 25 possession a game mids in 2010. Plus McKenzie, Morton, Trengove, Scully had great promise and Sylvia looked like the wheel was turning. Bruce led the backline and along with Grimes, Rivers, Joel Mac, Frawley and Garland looked like a reliable back 6 with plenty of young talent in the wings. The forward line was the biggest shambles of the lot.

Either way with Cross gone the dogs rely on Cooney, Griffen, Murphy, Minson, Boyd and Morris. That's probably more solid than the experience we left behind.

What the administration should've noticed was that the older players they were leaving in the post Junior period were the same guys as young players who took a team with some quality talent (Neitz, White, Yze, Robbo, Trap, Brock McLean) and couldn't propel it any better than 1 finals win. Plus those guys they learnt from like Yze, Trav Johnstone, Robbo were very talented and worked very hard no doubt but never reached the level I think some of them could've. Jeff White and Trav Johnstone and 2 guys who could've been superstars of the game or the club at least. Instead they'll go down as decent contributers but that's about it.

one finals win?

I think the thing people need to remember about Junior being axed and the angst that ensued is that we wouldn't have Tom McDonald if he'd stayed. Yes, it was handled very badly and led to a great deal of bad blood between the senior players and the management, but he was 33, he looked to be breaking down and we needed to clear space on the list for some young players. His spot was taken by our last live draft pick in Tom McDonald, who could be on his way to being an AA CHB. I still think it was the right call to make. It could have been done a lot better simply through better communication from all parties, but it was still the best call for the team.