Cloke and Collingwood - to part or not to part?

[hardtack 10,537]

Cloke and Clark will be our Buddy and Roughhead (of old) - add to that the support of Howe, Cook, Sylvia, Garland (assuming he stays forward), Watts after he has completed his apprenticeship down back, et al, and you have a pretty formidable forward half.

[cowboy_from_hell 2,390]

If getting cloke keeps watts down back then I'm happy. Sorry I just have some massive love for watts at the moment!

[Range Rover 1,935]

Cloke and Clark will be our Buddy and Roughhead (of old) - add to that the support of Howe, Cook, Sylvia, Garland (assuming he stays forward), Watts after he has completed his apprenticeship down back, et al, and you have a pretty formidable forward half.

... and let's not be forgettin' this guy

[H_T 3,047]

alot of people think that we need to spend alot on midfield but our stocks actually arnt half bad

What choo talkin' bout Willis ?

Our stocks aren't that half bad ?

I don't like to be the bearer of bad news and I wish it were different, but we have the worst performing midfield pound for pound in the league. Don't let last Saturday night fool you, it's all good and well being rewarded for some effort in those conditions. The previous 9 rounds we've been cut up. We need a star or two, pace and maturity of some current young crop to replenish and strengthen the dynamic of our midfield.

The club needs to choose wisely this draft. Prudent decisions are required.

[hardtack 10,537]

... and let's not be forgettin' this guy

Of course... a case of out of sight, out of mind (in which case I'm not sure how I managed to get Cook in there).

[rjay 24,924]

I can't believe the negative comments towards Cloke!!

Our coach spent time with him in 2 GF tilts. One being successful.

Cloke and Clark would be great.

Gotta spend $$ to win flags these days.

Train up the mids with continued youth injections.

If people do not want Cloke, who should we target? At present we struggle to kick 10 goals a game.

It's not negative comments re Cloke as such from me, it's more that I don't think it's the best use of cash.

Yes you do need to spend $$ to win flags but name the last team to win a flag with one player earning far and above what anyone else in the team were getting. It certainly wasn't Geelong, Collingwood or Hawthorn. The money has been spent on facilities, development, recruiting and the like with the salary cap being well spread among the group.

[Grandson of a gun 276]

It's no use having someone like Cloke if the ball only gets inside 50 forty times a game. When the opposition are pumping it in 70 times we will be done far more often than not. Our biggest problems are further up the field.

You can win finals and grand finals with a team full of gun midfielders. You cannot win without.

The most recent example is Geelong who won 3 with two very average key forwards.

Collingwood, Hawthorn, West Coast, Sydney, Port, Brisbane etc. All had gun midfielders that carried them to flags. Some had gun forwards too. But none had a weak midfield.

If we are going to spend big on a trade. It needs to be for midfield purposes. The only trouble with this is there is very few "gun" midfielders available. And our current plight won't be helping with the attraction.

So it might be a case of trading or recruiting via free agency for some "good-very good" needs players (like a HBF / HFF or two with elite kicking) and developing the midfield players we have further (a la Jones, Moloney, Sylvia, Morton, Couch, Gysberts, Blease, Grimes, Viney, Jones, Taggert, Tynan et al).

As has been said- this draft will also be crucial. Whether it is three first rounders before Viney, or Viney and a couple more- we do need more midfielders, goal kicking ones at that.

Edited June 6, 2012 by Grandson of a gun

[Sir Why You Little 37,035]

It's not negative comments re Cloke as such from me, it's more that I don't think it's the best use of cash.

Yes you do need to spend $$ to win flags but name the last team to win a flag with one player earning far and above what anyone else in the team were getting. It certainly wasn't Geelong, Collingwood or Hawthorn. The money has been spent on facilities, development, recruiting and the like with the salary cap being well spread among the group.

with FA i think clubs will have to spend up big in all areas...The Goal Posts move significantly from the end of season 2012

[Range Rover 1,935]

It's not negative comments re Cloke as such from me, it's more that I don't think it's the best use of cash.

Yes you do need to spend $$ to win flags but name the last team to win a flag with one player earning far and above what anyone else in the team were getting. It certainly wasn't Geelong, Collingwood or Hawthorn. The money has been spent on facilities, development, recruiting and the like with the salary cap being well spread among the group.

The more pertinent question is ... name the last premier without at least one (preferably with two) gorilla forwards in their side.

Edited June 6, 2012 by Range Rover

[dee-luded 2,959]

Perhaps he thinks he'll be reunited with Mick?!

perhaps he isn't to fussed about buckley?

[dee-luded 2,959]

It's not negative comments re Cloke as such from me, it's more that I don't think it's the best use of cash.

Yes you do need to spend $$ to win flags but name the last team to win a flag with one player earning far and above what anyone else in the team were getting. It certainly wasn't Geelong, Collingwood or Hawthorn. The money has been spent on facilities, development, recruiting and the like with the salary cap being well spread among the group.

I'm with you on this one.

I'd rather a more aggressive player with leadership qualities, even like Mooney was, rather than a prima' Cloke.

Spend the money on a topline mid. or a couple of older leaders. Sam Fisher, SAM Mitchell.

[Grandson of a gun 276]

The more pertinent question is ... name the last premier without at least one (preferably with two) gorilla forwards in their side.

Gorilla forwards. Or forwards that are any good. Geelong had two very average forwards in 2007 (Mooney and Ablett). In 2009 they had Mooney and Hawkins. Again they were hardly superstar players then either. And Hawkins played half a game in 2011. West Coast had Lynch but he was hardly a superstar.

Collingwood lost with Cloke and Dawes. St Kilda lost with Reiwoldt and Koschitzke. Port Adelaide kept getting done with Tredrea.

The pertinent question is actually whether you can name any team of the last 15 years that won a flag with anything less than an outstanding midfield unit in the premiership year.

The simple answer is that you cannot.

For the time being, Mitch Clark fulfils one of the big key forward roles. We can continue to develop Cook, McDonald, Sheahan, Fitzpatrick, Gawn, Spencer etc whilst we build midfield strenght. If they start seeing the ball 70 times a game like the Geelong, Collingwood teams of recent times, watch how good our forwards will look then!

Edited June 6, 2012 by Grandson of a gun

[Pennant St Dee 13,173]

PSD I forgot to look did you have the perfect weekend result?

Fiery encounter Old Dee the feckin Royals drew level with a kick off the ground from the goal square in the dying seconds, The Cardies were up by 40pts at half time and just ran out of legs, not quite perfect but no losses on the weekend

[Range Rover 1,935]

Gorilla forwards. Or forwards that are any good. Geelong had two very average forwards in 2007 (Mooney and Ablett). In 2009 they had Mooney and Hawkins. Again they were hardly superstar players then either. And Hawkins played half a game in 2011. West Coast had Lynch but he was hardly a superstar.

Collingwood lost with Cloke and Dawes. St Kilda lost with Reiwoldt and Koschitzke. Port Adelaide kept getting done with Tredrea.

The pertinent question is actually whether you can name any team of the last 15 years that won a flag with anything less than an outstanding midfield unit in the premiership year.

The simple answer is that you cannot.

For the time being, Mitch Clark fulfils one of the big key forward roles. We can continue to develop Cook, McDonald, Sheahan, Fitzpatrick, Gawn, Spencer etc whilst we build midfield strenght. If they start seeing the ball 70 times a game like the Geelong, Collingwood teams of recent times, watch how good our forwards will look then!

An A-grade midfield is a given ... but so is having big key forwards who can throw their weight around and give defenders the jitters.

You're wrong about Geelong - they had Ottens rotating through the goal square as well. He's a large part of the reason why they won those flags, which underlines the argument as they took the punt and shelled out to get him over from Richmond.

Collingwood lost with Cloke and Dawes?? Check the record for 2010. I think they might've won the flag.

And saying that St.Kilda and Port only just missed out still supports the pro-gorilla argument because the fact that they actually made it to the last Saturday in September shows that you need these types of players in your team.

You can develop and hope and hope and develop with young talls but the cold hard reality is that the big gun forwards are VERY difficult to come by.

They are gold. And that is why Cloke has a 5mil/5year price tag on his head.

[Grandson of a gun 276]

They lost in 2011 didnt they?

I'm not saying he isn't worth it or that they aren't gold. I am saying that midfields are more important.

Cloke and Dawes, Mooney and Hawkins, Reiwoldt and Kozi, fantastic but let's see em kick a winning score and make defenders nervous when the ball is in there only 40 times a game, and delivered poorly on many of those occasions too.

They were all supported by awesome midfields.

Even buddy and roughy were/are although buddy is an absolute freak and is one of the very few who could do it with a lesser midfield.

I'm not saying gorillas aren't valuable, but midfields are more so and we still need far more development there than anywhere else.

[rjay 24,924]

An A-grade midfield is a given ... but so is having big key forwards who can throw their weight around and give defenders the jitters.

You're wrong about Geelong - they had Ottens rotating through the goal square as well. He's a large part of the reason why they won those flags, which underlines the argument as they took the punt and shelled out to get him over from Richmond.

Collingwood lost with Cloke and Dawes?? Check the record for 2010. I think they might've won the flag.

And saying that St.Kilda and Port only just missed out still supports the pro-gorilla argument because the fact that they actually made it to the last Saturday in September shows that you need these types of players in your team.

You can develop and hope and hope and develop with young talls but the cold hard reality is that the big gun forwards are VERY difficult to come by.

They are gold. And that is why Cloke has a 5mil/5year price tag on his head.

My point is we've fired our shot with Clark, he's our Ottens if you like. Geelong then had Mooney (later Pods), a good handy player but no star and Hawkins, a kid still developing they didn't go and shell out the big bucks for Brown. Is there another Mooney or Pods out there, can Cook, Sheahan or Watts be the Hawkins.

Cloke is what 25yo now and will be 26 at the start of next season, 5 years is way to long for a player of his type. Brown is now past his best at 30, still a good player, love him but a shadow of his former self. These guys break down at a younger age because of all the bash and crash and the weight they carry (Fletcher, Bartlett, Tuck, Bradley haven't had to carry that weight around the ground that's why they lasted so long apart from being more than average players) the other side of 27 is downhill for a CHF, ask Dermie.

[Hannibal 5,814]

5 years is way to long for a player of his type.

FFS mate, not if it wins you a flag.

[Sir Why You Little 37,035]

FFS mate, not if it wins you a flag.

Agree.

[daisycutter 29,614]

Cloke would be awesome no doubt (and suck up a lot of spondulaks)

But I'd have to rate an awesome midfield as a higher priority

Of course if we could have both.....................................its nice to dream

[The Daily Magot 6]

Brilliant concept Tim and Daisycutter re A reverse Tom Scully clause for David Cloke.

Do you mind if I use it as inspiration for an article?

Happy to credit the Demonland boys.

[daisycutter 29,614]

Brilliant concept Tim and Daisycutter re A reverse Tom Scully clause for David Cloke.

Do you mind if I use it as inspiration for an article?

Happy to credit the Demonland boys.

go for it. no need for credit

always enjoy your blogs tdm

[hardtack 10,537]

Collingwood lost with Cloke and Dawes. St Kilda lost with Reiwoldt and Koschitzke. Port Adelaide kept getting done with Tredrea.

The pertinent question is actually whether you can name any team of the last 15 years that won a flag with anything less than an outstanding midfield unit in the premiership year.

Well, I doubt that the MFC are anticipating a premiership in 2013, so I would be happy for them to get Cloke while he is available and then after seeing how things look in the midfield with Viney running around and hopefully Gysberts back on track, look to bolster our midfield stocks at the end of season 2013 and beyond.

[olisik 4,060]

What choo talkin' bout Willis ?

Our stocks aren't that half bad ?

I don't like to be the bearer of bad news and I wish it were different, but we have the worst performing midfield pound for pound in the league. Don't let last Saturday night fool you, it's all good and well being rewarded for some effort in those conditions. The previous 9 rounds we've been cut up. We need a star or two, pace and maturity of some current young crop to replenish and strengthen the dynamic of our midfield.

The club needs to choose wisely this draft. Prudent decisions are required.

Our stocks arnt bad, the coaching of the midfield is whats bad in my opinion

[beelzebub 23,370]

FFS mate, not if it wins you a flag.

Anything can be justified in a hindsight methodology if a flag eminates. Problem is you cant guarantee such going forward. You need to take wise and balanced approaches to your shortcomings.. if you were to do a simple break up , forward , mid and back then the weakest link is without doubt our midfield performance. We HAVE forwards who can play. They are on a meagre rations bread and water diet currently as a result of a very ordinary and hit and miss midfield. Quite honestly anyone who thinks ours is in the top 8 of the the league is smoking something.

An in form and potent midfiled not only powers the drive in the forward 50 but it contains the pressure on our backs. A double whammy, which also has reverse effect when not working. Evidence...well just look at our performances to date..

So many want to tart up the car without giving it a really decent running mechanism....foolhardy. if the car aint got no grunt it aint going anywhere no matter how schmick it looks. Translation. We dont need more forwards......well not before the engine is attended to....then do what you like.

We currently have NO ball breaking game busting midfilelders. We have some who on their day can be adequate but hardly fuse-lighting.

Who here doesnt understand the game is won or lost in the nidfield ?

[Hannibal 5,814]

We currently have NO ball breaking game busting midfilelders. We have some who on their day can be adequate but hardly fuse-lighting.

Who here doesnt understand the game is won or lost in the nidfield ?

Despite the MFC's spectacular inability to produce elite mids it's reasonable to suggest that midfield concerns can be addressed far more easily than the ability to procure a gun key forward.

I don't overly rate Essendon, but they're top two with just two A grade mids and I'd argue that neither are "stars". West Coast are rock solid these days and sit a top the ladder; and while I acknowledge the contributions of Priddis, Kerr, Shuey, Gaff, Rosa, etc, I'd also argue that none of that group are bona fide stars. Some will put Cox in as a midfielder, which is fair enough and Kerr was once a star, but you get my drift. West Coast are an even side across the field and their game-plan is now second nature. They don't have any weak links.

I believe that when Trengove overcomes his woes, plus the addition of Grimes to the midfield, with Viney and a couple of early draft picks in the wings, along with Gysberts to come back, that we're well on the way to developing a solid midfield.

I doubt we'll get Cloke, but this club will be well on the way to being a top 4 side by 2014 if we were able to snare him. Cloke would give us the opportunity to fight for a flag within the next 5 years, but I can't say the same for the Travis Boak's of this world.