Toumpas v Stringer v Wines

[Dr. Mubutu 784]

This sounds pretty good... definitely addresses all the needs that melbourne need at the moment. We really need to add class around the ball.

Jake stringer is interesting... if you look at his stats in the the under 18 championships they look very very average! TAC cup is a totally different level to under 18s championships vs afl level. If he can't perform then not sure how he will go in the AFL. I rekon if gartlett can slide to pick 13 that would be a bargain... from the sounds of it he is ozzing talent and under the mark neeld era i think discipline shouldn't be an issue. With toumpas, wines, gartlett and hopefully viney with our second rounder that could be our midfield for the next 10 years!

Well, he has come back from a broken leg.......

Something this club is no stranger to, unfortunately.

[Curry & Beer 5,444]

These drafting threads are hilarrious - it's hard to imagine more lengthy and authoritative comments by a bunch of people who have absolutely no clue no what they're talking about.

All I know is this:

-in the 03/07/08/09 drafts we aqcuired Sylvia, McLean, Morton, Watts, Scully and Trengove with top 5 picks. Not a SINGLE ONE of these picks was controversial or criticised by ANYONE at the time the picks were made (with the exception of MAYBE Naitanui at 1 and Watts at 2).

-As a group of 6 players we have had a horrible, horrible return so far, which of course has brought out a host of 'monday's experts' who claim we are just plain 'bad-pickers'. The reality is that for a number of reasons, largely stemming from our poor financial status, we are no good at DEVELOPING ELITE TALENT. That is why you have to go back to Stynes/Lyon/Schwarz to find anyone in red and blue that has been well regarded in the wider football world (special mention to Neitz).

-I can only hope the club is in a stronger position now to do something about this crippling problem. Now, with great sadness, we find ourselves lining up again for draft handouts, because instead of perhaps pushing for a top4 spot like we all hoped/expected we would be by now, we have failed again and are at the head of the failure handout line. So, that is 2 more shots at top5 talent. Is there any chance we might actually capitalise on it this time? One thing is for sure, 2-3-4 years now if we have another couple of also rans there will no shortage of experts saying we 'picked the wrong blokes'.

[Dr. Mubutu 784]

Speaking of coming back from broken legs, I have noticed that many have said that Stringer would easily be top three, had his leg not been broken.

Given our recent experience in this area, could the club possibly bluff others by not taking him in the top 4, and hoping he slides to 13?

Clutching at straws I know, but given the season we're having...........

[olisik 4,060]

Who are the top 13 - 14 kids meant to be?

Who are the worst possible picks that would still be in the mix at 13?

I am really hoping we can do a good trade deal to get rid of our 3rd rounder and a player and score another 2nd round pick

[Hannibal 5,814]

These drafting threads are hilarrious - it's hard to imagine more lengthy and authoritative comments by a bunch of people who have absolutely no clue no what they're talking about.

All I know is this:

-in the 03/07/08/09 drafts we aqcuired Sylvia, McLean, Morton, Watts, Scully and Trengove with top 5 picks. Not a SINGLE ONE of these picks was controversial or criticised we are no good at DEVELOPING ELITE TALENT.

I think we've all been critical of our development and there's no doubt that we've made some poor drafting decisions, although if you look back you'll note that 2003 was a shocking draft, but I'd also contend that many genuine superstars are superstars irrespective of development. Some stars transcend development they're that good. But I don't disagree that development has never been more important at footy clubs. I just don't agree with the notion that every star has been "developed" and if it wasn't for this development they wouldn't be.

Also, we have to embrace the capacity of our new coaching and development team to get the best out of players. Some people think that one preseason is all they need, but logic tells me it will take time to see the results.

[Curry & Beer 5,444]

I think we've all been critical of our development and there's no doubt that we've made some poor drafting decisions, although if you look back you'll note that 2003 was a shocking draft, but I'd also contend that many genuine superstars are superstars irrespective of development. Some stars transcend development they're that good. But I don't disagree that development has never been more important at footy clubs. I just don't agree with the notion that every star has been "developed" and if it wasn't for this development they wouldn't be.

Also, we have to embrace the capacity of our new coaching and development team to get the best out of players. Some people think that one preseason is all they need, but logic tells me it will take time to see the results.

unfortunately there is no way of ever knowing, apart from going back in time and sending Rioli to Melbourne and Morton to Hawthorn and seeing what happens. At the moment is not too great of an exxageration to say they are close to the best and worst playersin the league and I'd wager the clubs that drafted them play a huge part in that gulf.

[Hannibal 5,814]

unfortunately there is no way of ever knowing, apart from going back in time and sending Rioli to Melbourne and Morton to Hawthorn and seeing what happens. At the moment is not too great of an exxageration to say they are close to the best and worst playersin the league and I'd wager the clubs that drafted them play a huge part in that gulf.

I understand what you're saying and I don't want to (seemingly) diminish the importance of development, but Franklin would be a star at Melbourne, so would have Judd and Lockett, etc. Leigh Matthews would have been a star, but he may not have played in a flag, which would have lessened his status. Greg Williams was a star at 3 clubs. He would have been a star anywhere.

I said on another thread that the two things Leigh Matthews looks for in a player is talent and leadership. McLean lacked talent and leadership. Sylvia lacks leadership. Morton lacks leadership and isn't top 5 talent, Trengove has talent and leadership and in time I expect him to progress to an A grader.

I hope we take into consideration talent and leadership qualities when making our top 5 picks this year. I'm not suggesting there's not room for a Garlett at pick 13. He has a tonne of talent, but we already know he lacks leadership, so development will be crucial for him. Sometimes a player has so much talent you take a punt to get the most out of him. Buddy is a case in point. He had tremendous talent, but I suspect was lower on the leadership stakes. There's no hard and fast rule I suppose. Chris Yarran has fantastic talent, but he's still inconsistent on the footy field.

Clint Bartram and Brad Miller are perfect examples of the importance of leadership. Both of these players have low end talent, but both have played over 100 games. They've done this on the back of their leadership qualities. Viney and Toumpas have talent and leadership. They're the sort of players you want to get into your footy club. They're 'culture changers'.

[ashdemons22 235]

I have watched a considerable amount of TAC and if Stringer is available grab him. He will be the one that clubs say, 'should have grabbed'. Mate in Perth says that Jack Martin is being played down as well. We already have a Toumpas in Trengove. These two guys offer a point of difference imho

I share the same view as you spot on, Stringer is true footballer having seen him just last week up in bendigo,

Also agree with you on Toumpass and Trengrove

[dee-luded 2,959]

These drafting threads are hilarrious - it's hard to imagine more lengthy and authoritative comments by a bunch of people who have absolutely no clue no what they're talking about.

All I know is this:

-in the 03/07/08/09 drafts we aqcuired Sylvia, McLean, Morton, Watts, Scully and Trengove with top 5 picks. Not a SINGLE ONE of these picks was controversial or criticised by ANYONE at the time the picks were made (with the exception of MAYBE Naitanui at 1 and Watts at 2).

-As a group of 6 players we have had a horrible, horrible return so far, which of course has brought out a host of 'monday's experts' who claim we are just plain 'bad-pickers'. The reality is that for a number of reasons, largely stemming from our poor financial status, we are no good at DEVELOPING ELITE TALENT. That is why you have to go back to Stynes/Lyon/Schwarz to find anyone in red and blue that has been well regarded in the wider football world (special mention to Neitz).

-I can only hope the club is in a stronger position now to do something about this crippling problem. Now, with great sadness, we find ourselves lining up again for draft handouts, because instead of perhaps pushing for a top4 spot like we all hoped/expected we would be by now, we have failed again and are at the head of the failure handout line. So, that is 2 more shots at top5 talent. Is there any chance we might actually capitalise on it this time? One thing is for sure, 2-3-4 years now if we have another couple of also rans there will no shortage of experts saying we 'picked the wrong blokes'.

I'm sorry mate about your thoughts about peoples insights, but not everyone can fly around the country to see all the games & all the potential draftees. Let alone to all the local Tac Cup games.

But, I can tell you, I wanted to draft Lachie Henderson @ 4 & Ebert @ 13 or 14, whatever 2nd pick we had. I had read about the knock against Morton, but I hadn't seen him play. And at that point wasn't watching junior footy. I didn't feel, or trust in my talent spotting then, and I thought others should know better than me.

I wanted to pick an aggressive CHF type that would come along over 3 or so years & turn into a Key Forward. Lachie. He's developing now. Ebert isn't too shabby.

2006 draft I was hoping for Nathan Brown > the Pies, happy with Frawls.

2007 I wanted us to ensure Pick 2, but that didn't happen,,, so with Pick 4 I wanted Henderson. & then Ebert Mid Rnd,,, & 2nd Pick I liked Tate Pears.

2008 I din't want Naitanui ( I thought too bid a risk) I wanted Watts, & I liked Daniel Rich, Vickery, Hurley-but saw him as a back, & with our 2nd Rnd pick, I liked Shoenmakers/ Blease/ & Zarharakis. Of course Schoenmakers was taken the pick before us, & we took Blease.

2009 I wanted Trengove! I wanted the tough inside players, Martin/ Cunnington, & I liked Gary Rohan, Bastinac, & Colyer. I didn't feel right about Scully. But again I thought I must be missing something as he was raved about.

2010 I'd stopped watching TAC Cup games.

I wanted us to recruit 1st Rnders, (2006 - 2009) Brown/Henderson/Watts/Trengove...

[dee-luded 2,959]

I understand what you're saying and I don't want to (seemingly) diminish the importance of development, but Franklin would be a star at Melbourne, so would have Judd and Lockett, etc. Leigh Matthews would have been a star, but he may not have played in a flag, which would have lessened his status. Greg Williams was a star at 3 clubs. He would have been a star anywhere.

I said on another thread that the two things Leigh Matthews looks for in a player is talent and leadership. McLean lacked talent and leadership. Sylvia lacks leadership. Morton lacks leadership and isn't top 5 talent, Trengove has talent and leadership and in time I expect him to progress to an A grader.

I hope we take into consideration talent and leadership qualities when making our top 5 picks this year. I'm not suggesting there's not room for a Garlett at pick 13. He has a tonne of talent, but we already know he lacks leadership, so development will be crucial for him. Sometimes a player has so much talent you take a punt to get the most out of him. Buddy is a case in point. He had tremendous talent, but I suspect was lower on the leadership stakes. There's no hard and fast rule I suppose. Chris Yarran has fantastic talent, but he's still inconsistent on the footy field.

Clint Bartram and Brad Miller are perfect examples of the importance of leadership. Both of these players have low end talent, but both have played over 100 games. They've done this on the back of their leadership qualities. Viney and Toumpas have talent and leadership. They're the sort of players you want to get into your footy club. They're 'culture changers'.

Thats right & thats why they took Roughhead before Buddy. Risk factor.

[dee-luded 2,959]

I have watched a considerable amount of TAC and if Stringer is available grab him. He will be the one that clubs say, 'should have grabbed'. Mate in Perth says that Jack Martin is being played down as well. We already have a Toumpas in Trengove. These two guys offer a point of difference imho

Toumpas sounds quicker & with more agility than Trenners. And sounds like he's more elite with his kicking off both sides.

Both seem close to the same size, & both sound like total Professionals.

Toumpas can also play from the back flank with enough speed to closedown opponents, & make correct decisions. As well as play through the middle.

I don't think we can afford to miss this guy. Unless he's already taken before us.

[Hannibal 5,814]

Jake stringer is interesting... if you look at his stats in the the under 18 championships they look very very average! TAC cup is a totally different level to under 18s championships vs afl level. If he can't perform then not sure how he will go in the AFL.

You're being far too simplistic. It's not a great formula to judge everyone purely on their form at the u18 championships. Daniel Rich had a quiet carnival, as did Trent Cotchin, who was tagged out of it and he'll be the best player in the game within a couple of years. Morton, Steven Armstrong and Watts won Larke medals and certainly the first two didn't reach great heights and many have question marks over Watts.

Stringer is clearly underdone coming back from his injury, but the raps on him prior to the injury were enormous. And I don't think he's a Tom Swift.

Edited July 20, 2012 by Ben-Hur

[furious d 448]

Tac cup future stars just did their first round mock, some interesting selections.

Their top 10 was:

1 GWS Lachie Whitfield

2 GC Jonathan O'Rourke

3 MEL Jack Viney

4 MEL Brodie Grundy

5 WB Jimmy Toumpas

6 WB Sam Mayes

7 PA Oliver Wines

8 BL Troy Menzel

9 RIC Dayle Garlett

10 FRE Lachlan Plowman

They had us taking Ben Kennedy at 13. Vlastuin slid to 19 and Stringer didn't make the first round.

Make of it what you will but it's all pretty speculative this far out in my opinion. Personally I like Toumpas, Wines and maybe Grundy with our early picks if Jack slips through. Mayes is another I like but he's not a natural accumulator of the footy and we need to use our early picks on kids who can get their hands on the footy.

We should be able to land another very good player with 13 if we don't trade it. Any or all of Colquhuon, Simpson, Kennedy, and Stringer could be available IMO.

[Guest KingDingAling]

I dont think Menzel will be a top 10.

[rjay 24,680]

Tac cup future stars just did their first round mock, some interesting selections.

Their top 10 was:

1 GWS Lachie Whitfield

2 GC Jonathan O'Rourke

3 MEL Jack Viney

4 MEL Brodie Grundy

5 WB Jimmy Toumpas

6 WB Sam Mayes

7 PA Oliver Wines

8 BL Troy Menzel

9 RIC Dayle Garlett

10 FRE Lachlan Plowman

They had us taking Ben Kennedy at 13. Vlastuin slid to 19 and Stringer didn't make the first round.

Make of it what you will but it's all pretty speculative this far out in my opinion. Personally I like Toumpas, Wines and maybe Grundy with our early picks if Jack slips through. Mayes is another I like but he's not a natural accumulator of the footy and we need to use our early picks on kids who can get their hands on the footy.

We should be able to land another very good player with 13 if we don't trade it. Any or all of Colquhuon, Simpson, Kennedy, and Stringer could be available IMO.

We won't take a ruckman at 4 no matter how good they think he is there is too much development time, if we do take him then it would be a sign to me that the club is looking to a longer rebuild. I know he is supposed to be ready made but so was Smith (good year at VFL level) who I really rate at GC and he is struggling a bit this year.

Be interested to see where Nathan Hrovat goes in the draft, looked good in the 18 carnival. It seems to me there are going to be some good pickups at least into the 2nd round so maybe it is a good draft after all and we are well placed.

[Lil_red_fire_engine 10,902]

Tac cup future stars just did their first round mock, some interesting selections.

Their top 10 was:

1 GWS Lachie Whitfield

2 GC Jonathan O'Rourke

3 MEL Jack Viney

4 MEL Brodie Grundy

5 WB Jimmy Toumpas

6 WB Sam Mayes

7 PA Oliver Wines

8 BL Troy Menzel

9 RIC Dayle Garlett

10 FRE Lachlan Plowman

They had us taking Ben Kennedy at 13. Vlastuin slid to 19 and Stringer didn't make the first round.

Make of it what you will but it's all pretty speculative this far out in my opinion. Personally I like Toumpas, Wines and maybe Grundy with our early picks if Jack slips through. Mayes is another I like but he's not a natural accumulator of the footy and we need to use our early picks on kids who can get their hands on the footy.

We should be able to land another very good player with 13 if we don't trade it. Any or all of Colquhuon, Simpson, Kennedy, and Stringer could be available IMO.

If Toumpas is available with one of our picks and we take a ruckman over him I will seriously vomit.

[GRUN DEE 69]

Pick 1 - Whitfield (GWS)

Pick 2 - ???? (GC)

Pick 3 - Grundy (If all of you who would vomit if we took him with Pick 3 or 4, I would vomit if we did'nt)

Pick 4 & player - Jack Martin U/17 (Super talent! V.good Inside/Outside & overhead. Can run & carry with pace.)

Pick 13 - Best avialble

Pick 21 - Jack Viney (We will get him here!)

[Lil_red_fire_engine 10,902]

Pick 3 - Grundy (If all of you who would vomit if we took him with Pick 3 or 4, I would vomit if we did'nt)

JD, no disrespect to Grundy as he can certainly play but if you dont understand we have a third world midfield and that needs to be the priority then something is wrong. Give me Toumpas at 3, Wines, O'Rourke, Mayes, or Martin at 4 and one of Stringer, Garlett or Kennedy at 13.

[GRUN DEE 69]

JD, no disrespect to Grundy as he can certainly play but if you dont understand we have a third world midfield and that needs to be the priority then something is wrong. Give me Toumpas at 3, Wines, O'Rourke, Mayes, or Martin at 4 and one of Stringer, Garlett or Kennedy at 13.

Pick 4 & 13 & 21 (Jack Viney) & a moneyballer & a free agent could all be midfielders!

Im sure we can spare Pick 3 for the best big man who will dominate his position. He will be as versatile as a Cox.

Grundy is consistently a very good player! Will make an immediate impact.

And he would be our best draft pick in the last 20 years. Big call I know!

He will destroy the opposition!

Edited July 22, 2012 by jungle dee

[Lil_red_fire_engine 10,902]

Im sure we can spare Pick 3 for the best big man who will dominate his position. He will be as versatile as a Cox.

Sounds like what people said about Kreuzer. With our record I dont think we can spare any of our high picks they all need to be loaded to find us elite mids.

[furious d 448]

JD, no disrespect to Grundy as he can certainly play but if you dont understand we have a third world midfield and that needs to be the priority then something is wrong. Give me Toumpas at 3, Wines, O'Rourke, Mayes, or Martin at 4 and one of Stringer, Garlett or Kennedy at 13.

I agree our midfield needs strengthening, rucks play in the midfield.

Our predicament right now shows there's room for another big man on our list and I'd only consider him if Viney slides to the second round. He can play forward, is a decent size already and has some mongrel in him. Pick 3, 13 and Viney should provide a significant boost to our midfield.

[Jordie_tackles 354]

I agree our midfield needs strengthening, rucks play in the midfield.

Our predicament right now shows there's room for another big man on our list and I'd only consider him if Viney slides to the second round. He can play forward, is a decent size already and has some mongrel in him. Pick 3, 13 and Viney should provide a significant boost to our midfield.

It is hard to say, Good big men taken early are Leunberger, Mcevoy, Kreuzer, Natanui, even Clark

Good ones taken later, Jamar, Cox, Sandi, Mumford, Maric, Jacobs, Goldstein

It isnt necessary but i think it is becoming more common place for the good ones to go earlier than they did in the past

[Dee1987 277]

Please no to Grundy at 3, we need mids with first 2 picks no doubt.

[Lil_red_fire_engine 10,902]

I agree our midfield needs strengthening, rucks play in the midfield.

Our predicament right now shows there's room for another big man on our list and I'd only consider him if Viney slides to the second round. He can play forward, is a decent size already and has some mongrel in him. Pick 3, 13 and Viney should provide a significant boost to our midfield.

Our predicament now shows we need if anything another mature ruckman as back up not another kid to go with Gawn and Fitzpatrick.

[jurrahcane 70]

mids , mids and mids ... 3 -Toumpas, 4-Mayes, 13-Vlastin & 24-Viney,and 45-Nathan Wright

OR

if Viney has to go at #3, then

3 -Viney, 4-Toumpas, 13-Vlastin & 24-Pongrecic,and 45-Nathan Wright