Change in game beat Demon recruiters

[Guest José Mourinho]

The one aspect in the article in which I completely agree is that we didn't recruit Watts to be playing on a wing in his 4th year. And I can't understand how this is so well received by some Melbourne supporters. Right now he's not capable of playing the role in the forward line that Neeld envisaged. I accept it, but it's very disappointing. He was trained all summer to play the role of a tall marking forward, but the plan was shelved prior to round 1, because it's presently beyond him. He won't impact games in that role, well, not in a Mark Neeld game-plan - yet.

I don't agree with Axis' assertions that he'll be an elite mid. I don't see that at all, as he's too outside and hasn't spent the years (and years) honing the prerequisite skills to succeed in the midfield. He'll be serviceable, as he's too talented not to be, but I can't see him winning the contested footy that's required to be dominant. To be an elite mid in the current game you at least have to have strong 'predator' skills, even if you're not a 'first dibs' bottom of the pack type. Swan isn't first dibs, but expertly plays the predator role and uses his fantastic reading of the play to create opportunities from stoppages. Watts would have to change his game enormously to ever dominate from the midfield.

I still reckon he can build his body to be a very competitive marking option in the forward-line where his smarts and ground level ability can make him one of the most dangerous players in the competition, where he can impact the scoreboard. That's where he'll be "highest and best use".

What good will ranting and raving do?

Watts doesn't yet have the body for it, and is working towards it.

What other KPFs do you see getting about with the frame Watts currently has?

I accept it, and once he puts on some serious bulk, I expect him to fill that role.

Until then, what choice do we have?

Even then, we've seen how long it has taken Hawkins, how long it took Jamar to learnt to use the bulk.

[Guest José Mourinho]

I don't agree that Watts will be an elite mid, but he could be an elite wingman like Richo was in his later years.

[Sir Why You Little 37,053]

Jack Watts first half against the bears told me that he will be just fine. He has taken the advice of the coach. Let him get bigger. Don't care where he plays as long as he hunts the ball.

Jack is not the problem.

[titan_uranus 25,020]

It's not a bad article, because it does touch on some valid points. However, he focuses too much on Melbourne vs West Coast, a comparison which, as I've said many times before, is close enough to a fallacy.

West Coast always had a core group of talented senior players. In 2008-9-10, when they fell apart, it was a lack of drive from those senior players, caused primarily through injury. Cox, Kerr, Embley, Glass, Lynch and LeCras were all missing for various parts. But they were always there.

We, on the other hand, have a bunch of hopeless spuds to play the same leadership roles. That's the key difference, something which turns the comparison between the clubs into a waste of time.

[old55 23,625]

Even then, we've seen how long it has taken Hawkins

Agree Hawkins was fantastic on Monday (and in last year's finals), he's really backed it up when there was early significant doubt he could attck the contest.

[The Chazz 4,077]

Agree Hawkins was fantastic on Monday (and in last year's finals), he's really backed it up when there was early significant doubt he could attck the contest.

I know a number of Geelong supporters Old55, and I would've loved to record what they used to say about Hawkins - makes you sick how they carry on now. A bit like Watts and Morton on here!

You just watch me hump Neeld's leg should he get us a flag!

I love double standards!

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

The game will always change. While we may not have had the players that could play "today's game", that doesn't mean that those players won't be able to play "tomorrow's game".

Eeeexactly.

Of all the articles you see, how many admit to not knowing anything about footy? And yet so few can actually predict the future.

It's perfectly simple. You either innovate, or you lose. As a club, the best we've had in my lifetime is Daniher who copied whatever we last saw win a flag. Which meant we'd always end up 6thish... Enough to keep his job for 10 years.

Recruiting players for a plan is one thing. But if you're recruiting for whatever the popular model is right now, you're guaranteed to not win a flag.

[Dockett 32 1,239]

Eeeexactly.

Of all the articles you see, how many admit to not knowing anything about footy? And yet so few can actually predict the future.

It's perfectly simple. You either innovate, or you lose. As a club, the best we've had in my lifetime is Daniher who copied whatever we last saw win a flag. Which meant we'd always end up 6thish... Enough to keep his job for 10 years.

Recruiting players for a plan is one thing. But if you're recruiting for whatever the popular model is right now, you're guaranteed to not win a flag.

Tend to agree.

McDonald, Davis, Tynan following on from Trengove, Tapscott,Fitzpatrick throw in Grimes, Watts and Frawley. Seem reasonable enough draft selections and adaptable enough for any game developments.Unsure yet on Taggert, Blease, Gysberts, Strauss but several of them should be alright. I dont think our recruiting is to blame. To me it' s about the size of the fight in our senior players excluding Clark and Magner.

[mauriesy 7,302]

It's not recruiting since 2007 that is an issue with any "change in the game". It's the core 25+ year-old players.

Compare players born in 1987 or earlier (i.e. aged 25 or older after this year)

Hawthorn

Bateman, Guerra, Mitchell, Osborne, Burgoyne, Hodge, Sewell, Roughead, Gibson, Franklin

Geelong

Scarlett, Podsiadly, Enright, Chapman, Corey, Hunt, Johnson, Bartel, Kelly, Lonergan, Mackie, Stokes, Taylor

Melbourne

Green, Davey, Jamar, Moloney, Macdonald, Rivers, Sylvia, Martin, Dunn, Bate, Clark

There's a huge difference in quality and/or experience.

[dee-luded 2,959]

I am not wrong DL. i have just watched this club lurch from one problem to the next in 4 decades. Did you attend VFL Park in '79 when the Roys knifed us?

Jimmy got it right, BUT $$$$ should have been pumped into the Footy Department at the end of 2009 once the debt was cleared. The club wasted 2 very important years leaning on the side of caution, and now we must pay for that(again).

Supporters have every right to be angry right now. What we have witnessed so far in 2012 is not AFL standard. 5 years after ND was moved on.

No WYL, we are OK, but we will need to settle this & next week, to try to show our supporters something.

We may have changed the Coach & gameplan 2 years back & spent money then on the development, but the truth is AAMI park wasn't finished then WYL? Was it?

If we went early on Bailey we may have missed some really important picks which delivered us players?

No, I think we are on the right track & are about where I thought we'd be with the change of coaches, gameplan & playing personnel.

The one thing we can't make allowances for is tragedy in the passing of a much loved Demon member. And the grief Sadness & anger/fear, it delivered with it's aftershock.

Followed by a trip 'Way out, West'....

Now, We need to just settle, take a breath, & play some footy.

[Guest Dr Who]

]

No WYL, we are OK, but we will need to settle this & next week, to try to show our supporters something.

We may have changed the Coach & gameplan 2 years back & spent money then on the development, but the truth is AAMI park wasn't finished then WYL? Was it?

If we went early on Bailey we may have missed some really important picks which delivered us players?

No, I think we are on the right track & are about where I thought we'd be with the change of coaches, gameplan & playing personnel.

The one thing we can't make allowances for is tragedy in the passing of a much loved Demon member. And the grief Sadness & anger/fear, it delivered with it's aftershock.

Followed by a trip 'Way out, West'....

Now, We need to just settle, take a breath, & play some footy.

Nice try but you might be talking to deaf ears - such is life - you tried not much more you can do.

Edited April 11, 2012 by Dr Who

[Sir Why You Little 37,053]

No WYL, we are OK, but we will need to settle this & next week, to try to show our supporters something.

We may have changed the Coach & gameplan 2 years back & spent money then on the development, but the truth is AAMI park wasn't finished then WYL? Was it?

If we went early on Bailey we may have missed some really important picks which delivered us players?

No, I think we are on the right track & are about where I thought we'd be with the change of coaches, gameplan & playing personnel.

The one thing we can't make allowances for is tragedy in the passing of a much loved Demon member. And the grief Sadness & anger/fear, it delivered with it's aftershock.

Followed by a trip 'Way out, West'....

Now, We need to just settle, take a breath, & play some footy.

You hold more faith than i....But i think i am quite a bit older than you, I will believe when i see.

If we lose the next 2 weeks...we are in for one horrid season.

[dee-luded 2,959]

You hold more faith than i....But i think i am quite a bit older than you, I will believe when i see.

If we lose the next 2 weeks...we are in for one horrid season.

OK, I was born 1956 WYL, have been involved with top level sports & a VFL side rebuild, 2+ decades back. I know a little bit from then & have learnt more in recent seasons about our rebuild.

[nutbean 8,838]

If you gave us Embley, Cox, Kerr, Glass, Lynch, Priddis, and LeCras as senior players - we would be far better than we are now.

This cant be emphasised enough.

Having leadership to set the standard in training is so essential

Have older players to see how they got about it both on and off field

The likes of Darling having Lynch and Lecras ( and now Kennedy who is now maturing) to take the pressure of you - allowing you to be the third target is so important.

We are missing this important peice of the puzzle.

[Sir Why You Little 37,053]

]

Nice try but you might be talking to deaf ears - such is life - you tried not much more you can do.

Don't be so Smug Dr. W (Artie, Jos'e E25....or whoever it maybe this afternoon)

You continually answer with $$$$$$, which is a large part of the puzzle, but not all....Do Geelong spend more than The Filth FD wise? Doubt it...

i am sure the Crows, Eagles, & The Shockers all spend a massive slice of their revenue on Football Departments..but it doesn't always bring home Bacon..

Have always wanted to compare the Eagles & the Swans FD spending in 2005-6...They would differ greatly i am sure.

One must still be a very wise spender...add in that element of luck that eluded the Aints twice in 2 years.

We all here on Demonland understand how much money is needed to run a modern Football Department (lots)

I don't know how much you donated to the club over the past 4 years, but if my family knew the amount i gave to the Stynes Board i would have some explaining to do!!

Quite a lot of that money i sent in, stipulating that i wanted it spent on the Football Department.

So i do get tired of your posts when you continue to stick the boot in to people with the $$$$ answer. It takes more than that.

[thaipantsman 180]

Hope so. I tend to agree though my generation has "seen it all before".

Melbourne do have a very good crop of young talent. We must be patient with this. Sometimes have to take a little step back again to go forward.

OK...imagine Collingwood without Cloke, Pendlebury and Swan. Would they have won on the weekend without these guys. Our 3 of Sylvia, Jurrah and Moloney are not of that class but they are Melbourne's 3 best. Mix this with the sadness of JIm's passing, change of game style and Jamar's lack of form.

Be patient. Melbourne may yet win 10 games this season. This week is crucial.

[Sir Why You Little 37,053]

OK, I was born 1956 WYL, have been involved with top level sports & a VFL side rebuild, 2+ decades back. I know a little bit from then & have learnt more in recent seasons about our rebuild.

Fair comment....you are older than i....i admire that your spirit still flies so high.

For me i am getting the impression that we had a huge chance....we had to get it right...But not all went to plan.

All is not lost yet, but it is going to be incredibly hard to claw back...

What this club really needs is a year off playing AFL...Getting Belted weekly on field in the media just makes it harder...

My biggest fear is we recruited too many of the same type...

i look at a football side like a chess board....the Pawns are the Midfielders...The KP's are the Back Row..

We recruited too many pawns, baby ones at that...We overlooked some serious Back Row types that we need right now, not in 3-5 years.

So i wait...and believe the great rebuild when i see it.

[Guest gidon]

I get the concern and I'm angry and concerned after each loss this year. I had higher expectations this year after many positive changes at the club. I see alot of negatives compounded by many off field issues in recent weeks. The fact remains it's too early to call.

Neeld is two weeks of game time into a coaching career. He will evolve and develop

Watts is realistically a year behind Nic Nat and Hurley as he is a year younger. He is also 5 to 8 kgs behind them.

Blease is a veteran of 6 games, 1 as a sub. Too many expect him to play like a seasoned performer. He is also a year behind the eight ball due to a serious leg break and poor fitness base

Strauss is also a baby who will develop later due to injury. Tapscott is in the same boat. Both have shown glimpses that they can play AFL level but they won't win games this year.

Gys has played 17 promising games averaging 20 possessions without size and a fitness base too

I'm hoping and think the expectation of players who have little experience is unfair. The expectation is built on potential only and we are being unfair expecting consistent results from them. Our captains are babies game wise too with Grimes development hindered by injury too. He may have matured into a good leader but he is young and behind by 40 to 50 games.

I will continue to watch the development of the youth and expect the 80 to 100 game plus players to perform. Having said this I'll understand that IRS hard carrying inexperience too. To me Green, Davey, Rivers, Jamar, Moloney, Batram and co need to lift. Clark (goal output only) and Jones are the only positives. Magner too

Howe is another who has too high expectations on him and I fear for Viney and the 2 first rounders in the next draft.

[dee-luded 2,959]

Fair comment....you are older than i....i admire that your spirit still flies so high.

For me i am getting the impression that we had a huge chance....we had to get it right...But not all went to plan.

All is not lost yet, but it is going to be incredibly hard to claw back...

What this club really needs is a year off playing AFL...Getting Belted weekly on field in the media just makes it harder...

My biggest fear is we recruited too many of the same type...

i look at a football side like a chess board....the Pawns are the Midfielders...The KP's are the Back Row..

We recruited too many pawns, baby ones at that...We overlooked some serious Back Row types that we need right now, not in 3-5 years.

So i wait...and believe the great rebuild when i see it.

Wow your in so much Gloom, but you think everything you saw over the last 2 years was false. You don't trust yourself.

Deep down you know we have much young talent on the list, but events have twisted your thinking & now you believe like many, anyone who whispers negatives in blackink on a daily paper.

We all know & now are realising consciously, our Achilles heel is, and has been, an inherent & persistent lack of hard headed leaders, over generations.

This hampers generations of Melbourne players & influences our supporter base over those generations, to accept & cheer for anyone who flashes in & out & looks half good. This is why I think our past off field leaders didn't have a good handle on what is a good club model & gamestyle of which we should adopt & recruit to.

IMO we are as close to the correct direction now as we can get, after what some think was about climbing the ladder but to me was about building the list to a productive point.

Now we can start to errect the thing, constructing & using the parts that are ready, to form the frame, as we do this others parts will become ready to install to the fitting out of the frame, & to lockup.

Then finally we can paint & furnish the project.

We're off WYL, & running, not winning yet, but in the race, & our rhythm will start to showout. When it does better form will follow. And confidence will start to grow.

[Sir Why You Little 37,053]

Wow your in so much Gloom, but you think everything you saw over the last 2 years was false. You don't trust yourself.

Deep down you know we have much young talent on the list, but events have twisted your thinking & now you believe like many, anyone who whispers negatives in blackink on a daily paper.

We all know & now are realising consciously, our Achilles heel is, and has been, an inherent & persistent lack of hard headed leaders, over generations.

This hampers generations of Melbourne players & influences our supporter base over those generations, to accept & cheer for anyone who flashes in & out & looks half good. This is why I think our past off field leaders didn't have a good handle on what is a good club model & gamestyle of which we should adopt & recruit to.

IMO we are as close to the correct direction now as we can get, after what some think was about climbing the ladder but to me was about building the list to a productive point.

Now we can start to errect the thing, constructing & using the parts that are ready, to form the frame, as we do this others parts will become ready to install to the fitting out of the frame, & to lockup.

Then finally we can paint & furnish the project.

We're off WYL, & running, not winning yet, but in the race, & our rhythm will start to showout. When it does better form will follow. And confidence will start to grow.

As i said above you have far more faith than i

As for your Bolded Sentence....i do not give a bugger what the journalists say or what i read on the net...i watch and listen to the games myself.

And deep deep down i am not confident in our list at all...it is out of balance.

You as a "new age" man, would understand how important Balance is in all facets of life...

The MFC does not look to have it....what i do back is the Coach & the Football Department....I just worry that we can pay them all.

[dee-luded 2,959]

As i said above you have far more faith than i

As for your Bolded Sentence....i do not give a bugger what the journalists say or what i read on the net...i watch and listen to the games myself.

And deep deep down i am not confident in our list at all...it is out of balance.

You as a "new age" man, would understand how important Balance is in all facets of life...

The MFC does not look to have it....what i do back is the Coach & the Football Department....I just worry that we can pay them all.

OK, then lets help them now by being a little, positive about this week, ot at least let the negatives ease off so the supporters can at least take some supportiveness with them to the game otherwise we may become our own self fulfilling prophecies of doom & cause our boys to panic under pressure. they can feel the vibe of the crowd out there.

Just as the Tiges players can here & feel, their supporters either 'moan' & Growl.

[s-t-i-n-g-a 439]

I love lamp.

[DirtyDees DDC 176]

two very nasty broken legs help this arguement, but somehow he forgot to meantion this

That's a key omission in the article. Blease lost two years of football getting over his broken ankle, while Strauss had other serious injuries prior to his broken leg last year.

It's not just Strauss and Blease. Every new recruit we've picked b/w 10 and 20 since 2007 has suffered long spells on the sideline (Grimes - pick 14 2007, Blease and Strauss in 2008, Gysberts and Tapscott in 2009, and Cook in 2010). Strauss, Grimes, Tapscott and Cook all spent time in rehab over the Summer. These guys aren't developing because we cannot get them to play enough football.

It's not recruiting since 2007 that is an issue with any "change in the game". It's the core 25+ year-old players.

Melbourne

Green, Davey, Jamar, Moloney, Macdonald, Rivers, Sylvia, Martin.

Here's our other main problem. Where have all our seniors gone? There has been a huge drop in performance from our senior list.

I'm not sure if there's a curse on our best and fairest award, but the last 5 guys to win the Bluey Truscott are all on senior lists, and none are starring for the MFC. These guys may not have been superstars, but they were key players and we are missing them big time. Even Jamar is well down on his form in 2010, and Sylvia may be injured, but he had just one kick before being injured in the last quarter against Port.

In a successful club, good older players can get moved aside by younger better players. I think of Mooney and Hawkins or Medhurst and Jarryd Blair. That's not happening at Melbourne because of the injuries to our younger players. We have been trying to develop kids by playing them in the firsts, even though they are not physically ready, and that has weakened the culture of the club. They should only get a game when they deserve their spot.

The other thing that stuffs us at the moment, is that lack of 'big game time'. Geelong and Hawthorn get better because they regularily play top class games against each other. What are we going to learn from a match where West Coast beat us by 108 points? How to chase and tackle and hit targets under pressure? Well we didn't do any of that on Saturday, and we certainly aren't learning how to win. Maybe this is why the gap b/w top and bottom is getter bigger each year.

[Johnny Karate 559]

I dont subscribe to the theory our recruiting has been terrible from 07 onwards.

We've had our share of hits and misses just like any other club. Hindsight drafting is the easiest profession in the world and I don't particularly remember many of our picks getting slammed at the time we selected them.

Most players have played less than 50 games, the media cycle is becoming more intense and they all have the attention spans of goldfish.

Case in point - the media getting stuck into Guy McKenna because coaching a second year club that arent world beaters. FFS!

Yes, some of our picks arent as advanced as we'd like but they were picked with an 8 to 10 year view.

We are rubbish because our senior players are rubbish, the under 50 matches, under 22's cannot compete consistently yet.

When we have shown moderate improvement in 2010 (& in small spurts in 09) - Davey & Green won B&F's, Mark Jamar was All Australian, James McDonald was James McDonald and Brent Moloney, Colin Sylvia & Cameron Bruce were playing pretty solid football. Zero of that form is being shown at the moment for various reasons and its telling on the scoreboard.

[Knuckles 73]

I'm increasingly frustrated by the continued attack on our recruiting. If we take WCE and compare it with MFC as was done in this article there is one massive difference. LEADERSHIP, the Eagles have leaders such as Glass, Embley, Kerr, Cox, Waters and Sellwood who are all premiership players. Outside of premiership players the Eagles also get leadership from Priddis, Rosa and Hurn. The WC recruits players have had these guys to play with and and learn from.

Who are our experienced leaders, Green, Davey, Rivers and Moloney. At various times the first three of these guys haven't been automatic selections and all four of them could hardly be rated as high quality leaders, at least from what we see on the field. I really think that having senior players setting the tone around a football club is unbelievably important and unfortunately the Demons haven't had this for years.

If you add to this the fact that taking the field with A-grade talent makes it so much easier for young players to develop. If we compare Shuey/Gaff and Trengove. Trengove is asked to do a mountain of work every week and the team has relied on him almost from day one. Whereas Shuey/Gaff has Priddis, Kerr, Rosa, and the Sellwoods doing the majority of the heavy lifting. This takes so much pressure off them and allows them to develop properly without being asked to do to much. The same thing applies when comparing Watts to Naitanui/Darling.

I have always thought we would have another dip in form (admittedly not this soon) and then we would need add another group of young players to make our list competitive with the best. When Trengove, Grimes, Watts, Tapscott, Frawley and Jones are our experienced leaders, I think the Demons will be much better positioned for success.