Barry Prendergast gone

[old dee 22,944]

Its funny how Cook all of a sudden hasnt been playing Casey seniors, which he did for the majority of the year, and cant mark after one training session. His hands are like vice grips.

Also its not a new 5 year plan, its the one started in 07 and which will start paying dividends in 2012 and beyond.

JT I stand to be corrected but my memory is he only dropped to the reserves late in the season, then did not play the last couple of games.

I thought I heard that he was injured prior to being dropped and the idea was that the injury ( hip that I remember ) would respond to treatment.

When it did not he was sent off for surgery.

Now I am not a big fan of Cook so far but you may be doing him a disservice.

The kid was in his first year, he had less than ideal conditions at Casey.

In 2012 he should be in a better position at Casey with no Fev etc.

I hope by this time next year we will have seen enough to jusity is selection at no.12 in 2010.

[Sir Why You Little 34,658]

No he is correct and explained your position perfectly. And the claim that the balance of youth and experience is out of whack would not have been addressed by getting Darling. The kid is still a kid. And its amazing you draw long bows based on distant third hand knowledge to lavish Cook 12 months ago and now based on third hand reports of dubious quality he is a liability. You got it right 12 months ago wheh you said players like Cook take time to develop. I cant see why you are dumping on the selection of Cook when its clear there were issues all 12 clubs had with Darling. And its only 1 yr into a possible 12 years for both players.

And as has been pointed out to you before, the decision to recruit the youth was not the domain of the coach. Its the role of Prendegast based on the youth policy adopted by Schwab and endorsed by the Board. Its wonderful you can wrongly pin the tail of responsibility with no accountability on Bailey and BBBP and not on others.

I am getting tired of this....it's too hot...Yes the kid is still a kid, exactly....did we really need another one?? As i have said all along i do not blame Lucas or anybody for that matter....But he better be good...because we had a golden chance to pick Darling, whom everybody knew about, but didn't..and he has performed for Wet Coke...and that is a shame.

Edited January 24, 2012 by why you little

[Jordie_tackles 354]

JT I stand to be corrected but my memory is he only dropped to the reserves late in the season, then did not play the last couple of games.

I thought I heard that he was injured prior to being dropped and the idea was that the injury ( hip that I remember ) would respond to treatment.

When it did not he was sent off for surgery.

Now I am not a big fan of Cook so far but you may be doing him a disservice.

The kid was in his first year, he had less than ideal conditions at Casey.

In 2012 he should be in a better position at Casey with no Fev etc.

I hope by this time next year we will have seen enough to jusity is selection at no.12 in 2010.

In what way?

[old dee 22,944]

In what way?

Sorry I thought you were suggesting he was not up to the job.

My mistake?

[Jordie_tackles 354]

Sorry I thought you were suggesting he was not up to the job.

My mistake?

Yeah sorry, was a sarcastic comment

[old dee 22,944]

Yeah sorry, was a sarcastic comment

On the re read I noticed I totally missed it.

Hot day well that is my excuse

[Jordie_tackles 354]

On the re read I noticed I totally missed it.

Hot day well that is my excuse

Trust me , i struggle to pick up things on here regularly OD, even when it isnt 36 degrees

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

I am getting tired of this....it's too hot...Yes the kid is still a kid, exactly....did we really need another one?? As i have said all along i do not blame Lucas or anybody for that matter....But he better be good...because we had a golden chance to pick Darling, whom everybody knew about, but didn't..and he has performed for Wet Coke...and that is a shame.

The issue is why we recruited him in the first place. He was seen as a KPF and would take years to develop. Whether you blame Lucas or not (I dont know why you raised it) is irrelevant. Given we used a first round pick we shouyld expect that he will develop into a good footballer and not a Molan or a Smith. And dont carry on about Darling as if it was obvious. You clearly had no idea about him 12 months and was cautioning others not to do likewise. You know 15 other Clubs passed him as there were risks in taking him early. He has a had a good first year. Let see how they both pan out over the next 4 to 9 years.

And given your contradictory stance 12 months ago I wouldn't be pumping your chest too hard. As a back flip its one of your most obvious of recent.

RR I do not disagree with the basic plan, but it was skinny kids and little else.

2011 was IMO the direct result of that policy

What is ahead in the next couple of years looks promising but it did at this point 1 year ago.

I hope Neeld and company are geniuses because we need a little bit of that and a lot of luck.

We recruited talented healthy fit 17 to 18 year olds who arent going to be on Australia's biggest loser. They are still growing into their bodies.

2011 was always going to be a tough year. The list was younger in 2011 than it was in 2010 with significant senior players departing an allready limited senior list. You must have been in dreamtime if you thought there was going to be some magical turnaround in 2011. We got stellar 2010s out of Jamar and Green and it was always doubtful whether they could top or equal that performance. Who was going to stand up? Through out the pre and early season we lost crucial players with injury (eg Jamar, Scully,Garland, Grimes and Bail). And we still have the challenges in 2012.

And you need more than Neeld being a genius you will need that core of talent to start showing their wares. The Club have always targeted these kids needed 50 games to have the maturity for AFL week in week out. And they do this with the generally dysfunctional senior leaders group.

[demon3165 2,003]

Can we please move on about Cook v Darling, it's become boring as for Cook the club now has a guy that WILL build them up over this year instead of waiting to build them up over a couple of years Misson has got a track record on this!!

[Sir Why You Little 34,658]

Given we used a first round pick we shouyld expect that he will develop into a good footballer and not a Molan or a Smith.

That is my exact point Rhino....He better be good..i am so glad we can agree on some things.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

That is my exact point Rhino....He better be good..i am so glad we can agree on some things.

That wasnt the point you were making in posts #164, #169, #184, #198.

Your contentions in those posts were different than what you are trying to hide behind now because of you have been exposed for contradiction. Its hardly earth shattering to state that you expect a first round pick to be good. WOW! Its a given. What you have backflipped on when you have stated you expected Cook to play some games this year is that nine months you seemed to understand that a 17yo KPP would take time to develop and were accepting of that. I dont want to take this further because fathoming your incredible backflips and porous arguments is a wasted cause and you will only keep rewriting your point of view to be something it clearly was not.

Can we please move on about Cook v Darling, it's become boring as for Cook the club now has a guy that WILL build them up over this year instead of waiting to build them up over a couple of years Misson has got a track record on this!!

Agree 3165. I am not sure why the "We should have got Darling its was obvious" card was played in all honesty. Its one of the worst misuses of hindsight as some form of foresight.

[Whispering_Jack 28,015]

History has shown the folly of trying to rebuild a list around experienced rejects from other teams. The issue of the blooding the youth was always going to be tough given the evolution of the 2007 senior players off.our list and the dearth of capable senior leadership players. I am glad we did not do what Carlton and Brisbane did for some of our cast offs.

I agree with you about Carlton in the Pagan era and Brisbane in Voss' first year but I believe that we were in the market to get the right players if they were available right through the early stages of our rebuild from 2007 onwards but couldn't get them. We were after Judd and R. Warnock and, as has been said, we tried to get Hale. Apparently, we were in the running to get Mumford and there were others no doubt. It wasn't for want of trying - it was more a question of money, facilities and the fact that we weren't an attractive proposition for players looking to change clubs.

I agree generally that the best way to rebuild is through a youth policy but, for a number of reasons I don't believe that, of itself is sufficient to provide a sustainable rebuild. Some clever, well thought out recruiting of more mature mature types is often what's needed to augment your list. I think the Carlton rebuild under the Pratt presidency and beyond has been far superior to ours. Of course, they had the benefit of the $s and a sympathetic AFL that turned a blind eye to a contract which it now concedes was a blatant rort of the salary cap to get their leader and marquee player.

Moreover, I think the definition "experienced rejects" might be changing because the Swans have used the trades well to do a mini rebuild in recent years off the back of some inspired recruiting of the likes of Mumford, Kennedy, McGlynn and others while doing well with their draft picks. It was by no means the sort of rebuild that we had to go through but their experience and success with recruiting within the timeframe shows that there were players around for the taking if you were good enough and clever enough to go and get them.

[H_T 2,941]

By the way what was the DB "set-up" ?

To be 'competitive' ... ?

Your guess is as good as mine and the heat has taken it's toll on me too.

[Ron Burgundy 8,584]

I agree with you about Carlton in the Pagan era and Brisbane in Voss' first year but I believe that we were in the market to get the right players if they were available right through the early stages of our rebuild from 2007 onwards but couldn't get them. We were after Judd and R. Warnock and, as has been said, we tried to get Hale. Apparently, we were in the running to get Mumford and there were others no doubt. It wasn't for want of trying - it was more a question of money, facilities and the fact that we weren't an attractive proposition for players looking to change clubs.

I agree generally that the best way to rebuild is through a youth policy but, for a number of reasons I don't believe that, of itself is sufficient to provide a sustainable rebuild. Some clever, well thought out recruiting of more mature mature types is often what's needed to augment your list. I think the Carlton rebuild under the Pratt presidency and beyond has been far superior to ours. Of course, they had the benefit of the $s and a sympathetic AFL that turned a blind eye to a contract which it now concedes was a blatant rort of the salary cap to get their leader and marquee player.

Moreover, I think the definition "experienced rejects" might be changing because the Swans have used the trades well to do a mini rebuild in recent years off the back of some inspired recruiting of the likes of Mumford, Kennedy, McGlynn and others while doing well with their draft picks. It was by no means the sort of rebuild that we had to go through but their experience and success with recruiting within the timeframe shows that there were players around for the taking if you were good enough and clever enough to go and get them.

Totally agree. In recent years, I have literally despaired at some of the recruiting and team selection decisions that the MFC have made. Before others point it out, I know I am not remotely an expert and I am wholly aware of this. That said, I have watched (or listened to) every MFC game over a very, very long period of time. In short, I follow the club closely.

It seemed to me that we were intent on fielding a TAC Cup team each week, more or less thinking that simply getting 50 plus games into talented youngsters would ensure a flag in 2013 (and beyond). However, I'd always thought it was a little bit more complex than that, particularly given the clear leadership vacuum we had at the club.

Clubs like the Swans and the Pies seemed so good at identifying/recycling older players (eg, Craig Bolton, Leigh Brown), yet our record in this regard's not been that great. It almost seems as though our recruiters were briefed only with looking at the most talented 16 and 17 year olds in the country. On any construction, identifying established players like Judd, Mumford, R Warnock and Ball who wish to move clubs is easy - recycling the lesser known older players and fitting them into the team's structure takes skill. That's why I have found the recruiting in recent months so exciting. It seems we are identifying older players who are being brought in to fill a defined role (Sellar, Magner, Couch). It suggests to me that there's some vision, perhaps even a plan. And why cut players of Junior's ilk prematurely if we weren't able to attract the likes of Judd and Ball to the club?! Surely we knew that - gross misjudgement IMO. We seemed to underestimate the value of a well balanced list.

IMO our club couldn't keep rolling out the whole 'blue sky', talented kids, five year game plan forever. It's not a luxury AFL clubs have, particularly the MFC. This stuff isn't some interesting scientific experiment - the rubber had to hit the road at some point in time, and we needed to start being consistently competitive and start winning games. And that's why I think picking Darling over Cook, assessed at this point in time and looking into the medium term, was an absolute no brainer.

Cook's apparently a fringe player for Casey. Meanwhile, Darling's been a very effective forward in a top 4 AFL team in his first year. I expect he will also continue to deliver a lot of value for WCE going forward - whereas it's still pure speculation for Cook. Not ideal for a first round pick IMO, especially for a club in our circumstances. Speculating on a talented tall is, however, an entirely acceptable methodology for a lower pick IMO.

And I reckon Neeld/Craig/Misson/Rawlings/Brown and the other new coaching group recognise this. Fortunately.

[old55 21,399]

Speculating on a talented tall is, however, an entirely acceptable methodology for a lower pick IMO.

Very keen to see your list of talented talls taken with lower picks.

[Lutz 76]

Darling maybe for style of play and physical maturity, but how about list balance?

He'd be just another good medium forward to add to the other 50 we have on the list.

We needed to build up a supply of tall KPFs - which he clearly is not.

Sometimes I wonder if people hav even seen him play when they talk about him playing deep as a tall forward.

[Ron Burgundy 8,584]

Very keen to see your list of talented talls taken with lower picks.

I'll put it back to you, old55. How many top 10 or 12 draft picks take 4-5 years to develop into regular AFL players these days?

Hurley, Watts, NikNat, Franklin, Roughhead, even Gumbleton (but for chronic injuries), all showed quite a bit reasonably early on in their AFL careers. Perhaps this was not the case a decade or so ago, but it seems that most top picks start contibuting fairly soon in their careers.

I'm not suggesting for a moment that any of the above elite talls are not worthy of their selection. The intent of my comment (which I would think is obvious to any fair minded observer) is that most tall, long term development-type players (such as Cook) are perhaps better being picked slightly later in the draft.

Even though everyone's going on about how Darling was overlooked by all clubs prior to being picked up by WCE, it'd perhaps be interesting to know where Cook would've landed had the MFC not picked him at 12. I suspect it wouldn't have been 13.

And FWIW, I really hope Cook makes it. I have absolutely no interest in seeing him fail. Ideally, he'll be our CHF for the next decade, but, from what I read here, there are some slightly worrying signs.

[Lutz 76]

Cook's apparently a fringe player for Casey. Meanwhile, Darling's been a very effective forward in a top 4 AFL team in his first year. I expect he will also continue to deliver a lot of value for WCE going forward - whereas it's still pure speculation for Cook. Not ideal for a first round pick IMO, especially for a club in our circumstances. Speculating on a talented tall is, however, an entirely acceptable methodology for a lower pick IMO.

And I reckon Neeld/Craig/Misson/Rawlings/Brown and the other new coaching group recognise this. Fortunately.

"Apparently"? Wow, you really sound like an authority on it.

Cook has become the posterchild on this forum for every skinny draft pick that doesn't come on.

Unfairly so.

[old55 21,399]

I'll put it back to you, old55. How many top 10 or 12 draft picks take 4-5 years to develop into regular AFL players these days?

I've already given you the example of Ben Reid from 2006 - a total of 8 games in his 1st 3 years - key premiership player in his 4th year.

Even Josh Kennedy took 4 years to really establish himself.

The intent of my comment (which I would think is obvious to any fair minded observer) is that most tall, long term development-type players (such as Cook) are perhaps better being picked slightly later in the draft.

maybe you can name some tall, long term development-type players picked later in the draft that have become A grade KPPs?

[Axis of Bob 10,266]

..... Matthew Scarlett (although he was F/S), David Hale, Hamish McIntosh, Max Bailey, Tom Williams, Darren Glass (to an extent), Farren Ray, Kepler Bradley, Jarrad McVeigh, Jay Schulz, Andrew Mackie, Brent Reilly, Daniel Motlop, Luke McPharlin ......

They are there. It's patience which is absent.

[Sir Why You Little 34,658]

That wasnt the point you were making in posts #164, #169, #184, #198.

.

If you can't see the points i have been making Rhino, it's not my fault. I have made them very clearly. You just like a stoush, but i should know that by now. I agree with a lot of what Ron Burg says above btw. I hope Lucas Cook makes it.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

If you can't see the points i have been making Rhino, it's not my fault. I have made them very clearly.

I have seen each of them (as have other posters) contradictions and all. You have made them them in your usual style. And as per usual when challenged or potted for glaring inconsistency you hide behind one point which is absolute no brainer. In this case you hope (and we all do) that Lucas Cook makes it.

..... Matthew Scarlett (although he was F/S), David Hale, Hamish McIntosh, Max Bailey, Tom Williams, Darren Glass (to an extent), Farren Ray, Kepler Bradley, Jarrad McVeigh, Jay Schulz, Andrew Mackie, Brent Reilly, Daniel Motlop, Luke McPharlin ......

They are there. It's patience which is absent.

Absolutely in a nutshell

[H_T 2,941]

I have made them very clearly.

Crystal ...

AoB nailed it last week.

But I expect that ^ to go straight through to the keeper as well.

[Ron Burgundy 8,584]

I've already given you the example of Ben Reid from 2006 - a total of 8 games in his 1st 3 years - key premiership player in his 4th year.

Even Josh Kennedy took 4 years to really establish himself.

maybe you can name some tall, long term development-type players picked later in the draft that have become A grade KPPs?

You seem to engage in a lot of inductive reasoning, old55. Clearly there will be instances either way. If you disagree with the general point I am making, just say so. I am not putting myself forward as any particular luminary on AFL recruitment - I am merely making an observation, which may ultimately be entirely incorrect. Time will tell.

But please don't engage in some anti-intellectual form of reasoning to demonstrate your point. It's too annoying to counter, and I don't propose to do so.

[Axis of Bob 10,266]

Ron, what evidence do you have that we should pick key position players with later picks?

Name some players that have become A grade KPPs picked after pick 30. If you make a point then be prepared to back it up.

(I'll give you a hint as to why oldd55 asked you to name A grade KPPs picked late in the draft ....... it's because there aren't many at all)