Dean Bailey reveals stress of sacking

[Dee Fan 3,247]

Jimmy should've gone face to face. If he was unable, then he should've sent McLardy or Schwab (actually I'd say that as the coach reports directly to the CEO then Schwab should've delivered the message, but this is a separate and probably less important issue). The phone call is the worst of both worlds option.

Here's the thing, according to Rhino, Schwab was either sacked or about to be told he was going to get sacked so it would have been hard to get him to make the call and according to Rhino McLardy isn't up to the job so where do you go from there?

[Sir Why You Little 34,799]

Here's the thing, according to Rhino, Schwab was either sacked or about to be told he was going to get sacked so it would have been hard to get him to make the call and according to Rhino McLardy isn't up to the job so where do you go from there?

Good Call RobbieF.....

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

No Rhino i follow the discussion just fine...i just don't agree with your Suit & Tie line...If Jimmy was well enough i am sure he would have made the honourable journey to Dean's abode and said the same things....as he was recovering from surgery at the time, he chose to use the phone.

My questions are not ridiculous....you just don't like an alternative view to your own.

If you did follow the discussion you would not have asked the silly question about have Jimmy get out of his bed to meet with Bailey. In posts #34, 50 and 52, I repeatedly stated that the VP or Board member deputise for Stynes. There was no ambiguity and you asked the silly question in post #62. DUH.. Go back and re read.

I am glad you refer to " honourable journey to Dean's abode".No one from the MFC Board did the honourable thing. It would seem that there was little honour in using the phone.

I am quite prepared to debate any issue WYL but as others have noted you struggle to maintain it particularly when you arguments are put up to the light.

I will put employee relations in the same basket as debt.... another black hole.

Here's the thing, according to Rhino, Schwab was either sacked or about to be told he was going to get sacked so it would have been hard to get him to make the call and according to Rhino McLardy isn't up to the job so where do you go from there?

Well done Robbie, the Board met and decided that Bailey had to be sacked. If the Board had deemed it appropriate they could have indeed got Schwab to do it. They had decided to retain him as CEO, so why could not they use him? And thanks for misrepresenting my views on McLardy. Well done again. There was nothing to stop McLardy and/or a delegation of directors making the visit to Bailey's place to pass the news.

There were clearly better and more appropriate options.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Good Call RobbieF.....

You just proved my point on following discussions..Brilliant.

[Dee Fan 3,247]

Well done Robbie, the Board met and decided that Bailey had to be sacked. If the Board had deemed it appropriate they could have indeed got Schwab to do it. They had decided to retain him as CEO, so why could not they use him? And thanks for misrepresenting my views on McLardy. Well done again. There was nothing to stop McLardy and/or a delegation of directors making the visit to Bailey's place to pass the news.

There were clearly better and more appropriate options.

So the board met decided to un-sack Schwab and then you reckon they should have said now you're un-sacked would you mind sacking the coach, you know the one that you were warring with; would you mind?

Now that would have been all class wouldn't it?

You seem to want to drag this out and I'm beginning to think it's just another opportunity for you to mount the mighty steed and get back on your high horse.

I think everyone gets it, you have a position, they have a position, Hell even I've got a position; anything else to add?

[1858 224]

Come on, surely people aren't trying to argue that a phone call to sack someone is appropriate? I'm starting to see what some around here mean when they say people will just defend the club over everything no matter what. This is as black and white an issue as I've seen for a while.

It isn't so much about defending the club it is more about understanding how fractured the club was leading up to the Bailey sacking.

This discussion has been in the context of the Bailey sacking and text book operations but, if we are honest with our selves, we would acknowledge that the club had many more problems than just the coach and, leading up to the Bailey sacking, text book operations had been evidently absent.

Every aspect of 186 presented a crisis to our board from the game itself to the factions within the club to the state of our players. In an ideal world we would have sent the VP around to Dean's place to keep things above board but the club was in crisis for multiple reasons and arguably did not function under ideal circumstances and this is without making consideration for Jim's health. A phone call is not appropriate on paper (no arguement) but our president acted in the way he thought best given the circumstances which I think many are underestimating.

The moral of the story is that due process is not just 1 individual thing it is how a club functions in perpetuity and the sad reality is that by the time 186 occured we were bereft of a system.

If anyone wants to judge Jim Stynes in the heat of the moment and in the health he was in then so be it. You can argue until the cows come home whether others should have ensured due process ensued but Jim was and is our president and acted how he saw fit during a very dark time of the MFC.

Jim Stynes did what he did within his own constraints and anyone who wants to judge him on that can go ahead.

Isolating this incident to express a bugbear about how the club functions is pointless.

Edited November 6, 2011 by 1858

[rpfc 27,627]

The call to end it wasn't great, but the idea that we should have asked him to resign is absurd.

Do you want him to no longer coach your club?

If it is a yes - don't patronise the man with an opportunity to fall on his sword.

We are holding the sword!

[1858 224]

The call to end it wasn't great, but the idea that we should have asked him to resign is absurd.

Do you want him to no longer coach your club?

If it is a yes - don't patronise the man with an opportunity to fall on his sword.

We are holding the sword!

Correct.

[Whispering_Jack 28,084]

It seems to me it was a question of VP face to face or President over the phone. Rightly or wrongly, Jim decided that his heath meant he couldn't present face-to-face, but that he ought to do the "deed" and not delegate the toughest of jobs to his VP (who, let's face it, is a more active VP that he would like to be and should be all other things being equal). Not perfect, but hardly a hanging offence in the context of Jim's health.

I actually think the problem was that we should have honoured the contract and let him see out the year if he wanted to (and I understand he would have wanted to), not reacted to the media hounds in an oh-so-predictable way.

Good summation and in an ideal world I'm sure we would all like to see our contracts honoured to the fullest degree.

However, I doubt that it was possible or even desirable after the events of 30 July, 2011. Even the Bulldogs whose conduct of Eade's departure has been lauded by some, recognised this when they parted company. In most cases, lame duck coaches not only don't work but the consequences of keeping them on are disastrous.

One of these days, I'd like to find out the truth about what really happened, whether there really had been decisions made and changed on the futures of Cameron Schwab and Dean Bailey and what was behind the horrendous team performance in the afternoon. It was an interesting time in the club's history and depending on which way you look at it, either a calamity or a miracle occurred at Skilled Stadium on the day.

[Guest Thomo]

When a person takes a job as an AFL coach, they know that they are a very good chance of being sacked. History shows most coaches do not leave their employment on their terms, this is one of the reasons that they are paid so well.

Dean Bailey was a vey poor coach. There is no debate, he was bad. The one redeaming quality he has is that he has taken his sacking and moved on. He has not tried to talk himself up and rewrite history. It's a shame RR and a few others can't do the same.

[jumbo returns 6,538]

When a person takes a job as an AFL coach, they know that they are a very good chance of being sacked. History shows most coaches do not leave their employment on their terms, this is one of the reasons that they are paid so well.

Dean Bailey was a vey poor coach. There is no debate, he was bad. The one redeaming quality he has is that he has taken his sacking and moved on. He has not tried to talk himself up and rewrite history. It's a shame RR and a few others can't do the same.

Well.....he's sorta moved on.

Since his sacking, he's been doing his counselling through the media. As he settles into his new role as 'innovations' coach with the Crows, the wound will heal.

[Sir Why You Little 34,799]

If you did follow the discussion you would not have asked the silly question about have Jimmy get out of his bed to meet with Bailey. In posts #34, 50 and 52, I repeatedly stated that the VP or Board member deputise for Stynes. There was no ambiguity and you asked the silly question in post #62. DUH.. Go back and re read.

I am glad you refer to " honourable journey to Dean's abode".No one from the MFC Board did the honourable thing. It would seem that there was little honour in using the phone.

I am quite prepared to debate any issue WYL but as others have noted you struggle to maintain it particularly when you arguments are put up to the light.

I will put employee relations in the same basket as debt.... another black hole.

You really are quite the man aern't you Rhino...Taking this thread as an example...i would love to see you spout out all these arguments you put forth to the Board & Jim Stynes...Face to Face..Eyeball to Eyeball.

You wouldn't get within 500 metres before embarrassing yourself...You would have been in heaven if Schwab had been sacked wouldn't you, months of posts would you have written talking about what a shocking man he is.

Well i think he had a big hand in getting a $6 million sponsorship deal over the line...and he went to Brissy with coach Neeld and played his part in getting the big forward we need, so since 186 he has actually done a cool Job....

So have all the Board...We have moved on pretty dam well.

BUT it was Jimmy's call on who would tell Dean of his Sacking...he is the President. And HE decided to speak to Dean.

The Media and YOU have made a big deal about it being unprofessional.

I think it's fine how it was done...quickly and with dignity as we saw with Bails in his Media Conference.

[jumbo returns 6,538]

I have already stated what I thought should have been done. Why do you ask facetious questions? Which parts of the discussion dont you follow?

If we go by your take on the issue, Bailey should have been duly humbled and honoured to have received an after hours call. The circumstances seemed to suit persons other than Bailey who was not given due consideration.

You are kidding 3165. It was you that raised workers in post #55."Rhino do jump up and down and take the moral high road when someone gets the sack from your work,"

Firstly Bailey is not an AFL player. He was a coach of MFC. And neither any of my colleagues nor an AFL coach can get drafted.

Secondly, Bailey was an employee of the MFC (employer). I am an employee of an unnamed company (employee).

The comparison and analogy is completely valid.

Your right! B)

Methinks your/you're baiting me...

[Diablo Deemon 220]

Sounds like a few could take head of their own advice which is so oft pontificated.

Much ado about nothing the hand wringing is rampant.

Humiliation to the order of 186 Bailey should of been publicly flogged.

That was laughable but my distaste for that coaching performance doesn't adress the sacking.

Bailey knew of the emergency board meeting in the interest of expediancy and wanting to know

where your chips lie a phone call I reckon would of been welcome relief for bailey

He was obviously subsequently debriefed for the press conference to go ahead.

His position was untenable the news of which any thinking person would realise was inevitable.

Regardless of Jim's health Bailey would surely of wanted to know by any means possible

The boards decision.

Edited November 6, 2011 by Diablo Deemon

[Nasher 33,166]

The call to end it wasn't great, but the idea that we should have asked him to resign is absurd.

Do you want him to no longer coach your club?

If it is a yes - don't patronise the man with an opportunity to fall on his sword.

We are holding the sword!

It's not absurd, it's fairly common practice with senior management. You give him the opportunity to resign, and if he doesn't then you sack him. All parties come out smelling of roses and no blood is spilt.

I strongly disagree with your assertion that he would not resign if given the opportunity. He would do so knowing that the "choice" to resign isn't really a choice at all.

[dee-eee 231]

Welcome to Demonland where inspite of quite a few pre season positives , two of the "HOT" topics concern endless regurgitations re the departure of $culs and Bails !

[rpfc 27,627]

It's not absurd, it's fairly common practice with senior management. You give him the opportunity to resign, and if he doesn't then you sack him. All parties come out smelling of roses and no blood is spilt.

I strongly disagree with your assertion that he would not resign if given the opportunity. He would do so knowing that the "choice" to resign isn't really a choice at all.

It's farcical and absurd.

Whenever someone is 'resigned' it as if he/she was fired to all those with half a brain anyway.

We would have looked like we were reacting to 186 either way.

Only Melbourne supporters would wring their hands because they thought the club could have 'resigned' their coach rather than 'fired' him...

Is that not what this thread is?

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

So the board met decided to un-sack Schwab and then you reckon they should have said now you're un-sacked would you mind sacking the coach, you know the one that you were warring with; would you mind?

Now that would have been all class wouldn't it?

You seem to want to drag this out and I'm beginning to think it's just another opportunity for you to mount the mighty steed and get back on your high horse.

I think everyone gets it, you have a position, they have a position, Hell even I've got a position; anything else to add?

I have already explained what Schwabs disposition was. The Board had other alternatives to use than a graceless phone call.

You really are quite the man aern't you Rhino...Taking this thread as an example...i would love to see you spout out all these arguments you put forth to the Board & Jim Stynes...Face to Face..Eyeball to Eyeball.

You wouldn't get within 500 metres before embarrassing yourself...You would have been in heaven if Schwab had been sacked wouldn't you, months of posts would you have written talking about what a shocking man he is.

I have no issue telling anyone to their faces that the sacking of an employee by phoned is not appropriate. Period. Its funny how you demand me to go "Face to face. Eyeball to Eyeball" with a group of people that run crucial positions by phone. Could I text them instead?

As for tough guy antics, how have you gone getting Denham's address so you could give your 8 cylinders?

I would like a well performing CEO to be at the club. If thats Schwab that fine. The Board seemed to have trouble working that out.

BUT it was Jimmy's call on who would tell Dean of his Sacking...he is the President. And HE decided to speak to Dean.

As I said he made a bad judgment. Stynes is human and he erred on this occassion. Try and move past the fawning sycophancy.

The Media and YOU have made a big deal about it being unprofessional.

I think it's fine how it was done...quickly and with dignity as we saw with Bails in his Media Conference.

I cant think of any industry in Australia where it is the accepted norm to sack workers, be they card carrying unionist to senior executives by phone. Bailey showed himself above the antics of the Board.

FWIW, I thought the whole media conference circus held that day was one of the most cringeworthy cynical and underwhelming presentations. I have witness from an AFL club. The way Bailey was ostracised in a seperate meeting you would have he had an incurable disease. From Jimmy's frail demeanour to the circus parade performed in front of the media, it was embarrassing to say the least.

It's farcical and absurd.

Whenever someone is 'resigned' it as if he/she was fired to all those with half a brain anyway.

We would have looked like we were reacting to 186 either way.

Only Melbourne supporters would wring their hands because they thought the club could have 'resigned' their coach rather than 'fired' him...

Is that not what this thread is?

Settle rpfc. Its a minor detail resigning versus being sacked. Its a quick 1 minute question at a face to face meeting prior to advising the Board's final decision.

The issue is the Boards mode of communication.

[beelzebub 22,282]

So we have revisionists, envisionists, divisionists and in all likely fictionalists.

What does it matter....its over, past. Nothing can change, its already happened and been dealt with. The course as the club was travelling was untenable and was summarily 'corrected'.

That was then....and what we have currently is the now. There was was the notion that the winner got to write history but that no longer occurs as everyone wants to broadcast there version lest someone esle does it for them. We now have a collection of what many would observe to be the truth but in reality they are only their takes on it.

It is often mused here that as were arent privy to the actual machinations of the club ( in the main ) that most of what we deal with are extrapolations built on suspicions or beliefs. Is thsi related to the truth of matters ?

What do we actaully know ? Well wee know the team was performing abysmally. We understood the club to have concerns abouts the ability and direction the coaching was taking it. We know there was a verry bad day in Geelong where it all came to a head. Now it gets murky. Something now had to give , and in a big way. It did.

The End

[The Chazz 4,077]

Good summation and in an ideal world I'm sure we would all like to see our contracts honoured to the fullest degree.

However, I doubt that it was possible or even desirable after the events of 30 July, 2011. Even the Bulldogs whose conduct of Eade's departure has been lauded by some, recognised this when they parted company. In most cases, lame duck coaches not only don't work but the consequences of keeping them on are disastrous.

One of these days, I'd like to find out the truth about what really happened, whether there really had been decisions made and changed on the futures of Cameron Schwab and Dean Bailey and what was behind the horrendous team performance in the afternoon. It was an interesting time in the club's history and depending on which way you look at it, either a calamity or a miracle occurred at Skilled Stadium on the day.

I'm of that feeling too WJ. I would love to know how an AFL team could manage to play how we did. The players that played that day couldn't tell me that Geelong are a 186 point better team than Melbourne. Something happened within that playing group, and I want to know what it was. Sadly, that situation may never arise.

I'm with RR in regard to the sacking - should've been done face-to-face, there is no other alternative.

[Sir Why You Little 34,799]

I have said my piece & stick to it.

[Bring-Back-Powell 13,382]

What was Bailey expecting? A 3 year contract extension?

[Nasher 33,166]

What was Bailey expecting? A 3 year contract extension?

To be treated in a professional manner, rather than like a 16 year old girl dumping her boyfriend over the phone.

Besides, expecting the issue to arise doesn't make it any less stressful when he does.

[old dee 22,971]

So we have revisionists, envisionists, divisionists and in all likely fictionalists.

What does it matter....its over, past. Nothing can change, its already happened and been dealt with. The course as the club was travelling was untenable and was summarily 'corrected'.

That was then....and what we have currently is the now. There was was the notion that the winner got to write history but that no longer occurs as everyone wants to broadcast there version lest someone esle does it for them. We now have a collection of what many would observe to be the truth but in reality they are only their takes on it.

It is often mused here that as were arent privy to the actual machinations of the club ( in the main ) that most of what we deal with are extrapolations built on suspicions or beliefs. Is thsi related to the truth of matters ?

What do we actaully know ? Well wee know the team was performing abysmally. We understood the club to have concerns abouts the ability and direction the coaching was taking it. We know there was a verry bad day in Geelong where it all came to a head. Now it gets murky. Something now had to give , and in a big way. It did.

The End

What we actually know is that he presided over the worst 3.5 years the MFC have had in a long time.

It is fine to say he had a poor list but he got is own way and went down a certain track in the form of players and game plan .

The conclusion was 31 goal loss to Geelong after a pityful year with numerous large losses.

In the end it was his selected players, his game plan.

lets cut the Revisionism the guy was poor.

Goodbye, end of story.

[rpfc 27,627]

What we actually know is that he presided over the worst 3.5 years the MFC have had in a long time.

It is fine to say he had a poor list but he got is own way and went down a certain track in the form of players and game plan .

The conclusion was 31 goal loss to Geelong after a pityful year with numerous large losses.

In the end it was his selected players, his game plan.

lets cut the Revisionism the guy was poor.

Goodbye, end of story.

Story's are rarely so black and white.

Well, good ones anyway...

This is no exception.