Why are we so suprised?

[jackaub 1,402]

where have all the "have_trust_in_the_FD,_they_know_what_they_are_doing" apologists gone?

I believe we wil soon know the truth the football department has imploded the problem begins and ends there

Someone at board level needs to make a statement thta addresses waht we all suspect we dont have a football department team and that is reflected in the players performance

[titan_uranus 24,755]

OUTCOACHED : Our gameplan is easily defeated by a competent opposition.

CONFIDENCE: Once our gameplan is defeated, simple footballing tasks and skills seem very difficult. Doubt creeps into everything, doubt of your self, your team mates, your coaches.

RUNNING: Once confidence is lost, sometimes subconsciously so is the will to run and demand the footy.

I said a few weeks ago after the Brisbane game we were one embarassing loss away from a crisis, that time has come. We aren't quite at rock bottom yet, it is clear however that changes need to be struck quickly to become competetive againts competent footy teams.

I look forward to the response. I don't think Bailey is a stupid man, let's see if he is stubborn one.

Good post.

Out of interest, do you think our structures can be noticeably changed mid-season to positive effect?

I do. Adelaide did it two years ago. Hawthorn did it last year. Heck, Geelong did it mid-game against Sydney a few weeks back, where they reverted from their usual run/handpass game to a kick-dominated one with different forward options.

IMO we don't need to do too much. A change in forward structure is the biggest thing. We need deeper forwards leading towards the ball carrier, not starting their leads on the wing and running sideways/towards goal (or worse still, not leading at all).

[45HG 1,539]

I do. Adelaide did it two years ago. Hawthorn did it last year. Heck, Geelong did it mid-game against Sydney a few weeks back, where they reverted from their usual run/handpass game to a kick-dominated one with different forward options.

This is what confuses me about the whole "game play" debate.

Did Geelong change it mid-game, or did they just start playing better? Did we change ours against the Pies - or did we just play better? If we changed it, if even a tweak, why would we change it back afterwards?

Not arguing with you - just saying what often ponders me.

[titan_uranus 24,755]

This is what confuses me about the whole "game play" debate.

Did Geelong change it mid-game, or did they just start playing better? Did we change ours against the Pies - or did we just play better? If we changed it, if even a tweak, why would we change it back afterwards?

Not arguing with you - just saying what often ponders me.

In Geelong's case, they definitely changed it up. They were playing in the first half the way they usually do, but it wasn't as effective, and they recognised that against Sydney, in the wet, at the SCG, kicks might work better, so they noticably changed to a kicking game.

Against Collingwood we didn't change anything, we just played well. Good strategies those days (manning up/tagging Maxwell, Shaw and O'Brien).

[timD 994]

You know I'm talking about WC don't you?

They had huge issues re drugs and the culture of their players. Some players, senior, lost focus with that and took a while adjusting to being Premiers one era and wooden spooners so soon after.

The players performances speak for themselves. Cox, Embley, Kerr, Nicoski,Glass, Butler, Lynch (and to a lesser degree Pridis) are all having really good years. Most of those blokes are Premiership players who have games experience and are hardened players. When compared to us it's "men against boys" stuff and that's how it looked. Rosa, Selwood, Hurn, Jones and Schofield add good depth and let Naitanui, Masten, Gaff, Darling, Shuey, Smith and Sheppard develop with nowhere near the pressure that our boys are under (and not all of their youth play together). If WC had lost their first 4 games can you imagine the pressure Naitanui would be under? Well you can because Watts is under it now. But Naitanui is just "developing nicely" in a team that is doing well.

Darling is a good player and having an impact. But if he played for GCS he wouldn't have had the impact he has today because he simply wouldn't have the help. Put Jack Watts in a team with a competitive and skilled midfield with mature players around him and he'd be twice the player he is now.

We have no really good older players. Green and Moloney are probably the best and they are just "good". Davey could be elite but he just doesn't get the ball and Sylvia is just a tad short of "pulling it off". One or two good older players won't make much difference anyway, we need a core of 12 or 14 who take the heat and let the young blokes develop. That's the main difference between our rebuild and many other clubs rebuild (Carlton perhaps an exception). We don't have a core of experienced players capable of letting youth mature. I think GC will suffer the same fate.

We'll see.

Snoopy, Carlton had judd and fev. They could take all the attention. WE have no-one. It is both better and worse.

[H_T 3,032]

Likewise with Ess..

Yes.

[H_T 3,032]

My crazy idea is that Bailey has formed a crucible that will force out the truth. Now, his run and gun style will ONLY work if the space is created and play is created. That requires hard work off the ball - like norm smith said, the play is created by the blokes WITHOUT the ball. I'd bet that the team has been taught this, but they are not implementing it for a few well-worn reasons. The talent/experience mismatch, the leadership void and the poverty in our midfield. That's it. Once we see a midfield that exerts greater influence, we'll cut teams apart. Our backs will get respite. Our forwards will get supply. I think this is all really simple. The problems are clear but none are quickly fixed. WE have to wait until scully, mcKensie and gysberts have 2-3 years more in them (and are on the park). WE have to see that Jones cannot get a game and that moloney is a bench player. WE have to shed some of the outsiders who have no influence and replace them with outsiders who have influence.

The game plan is there (for the most part). The players are almost there. The culture needs to form up and away we'll go. I expected performances like this because nothing has changed greatly since 2008. WE are just getting the pieces in place. The thing that sucks the hardest is that we look weak, hesitant and disorganised. I think the players are. They can change that. Bailey wont - and can't. They can. It is up to them. All Bailey can do is teach, select, intruct and let them go. Time for the players to decide that they want to play for something and for it to count.

When it comes down to it, I just want someone to hit someone.

Good post timD. The last paragraph could well be put down to lack of leadership. Again, off and on field leadership.

[timD 994]

Thanks HT. WE've been crying out for (a) top-end talent and (B) effective on-field leadership for years. Once identified, you cannot just recruit it. You need to develop it from within. I'd love to see class and grunt just injected but it doesn't happen. No matter how hard I tantrum.

Damnit!

[deejammin' 2,185]

Firstly I don't think that teams have different gameplans. Ross Lyon took 18 months to two years to change Saints. You can tweak it but you can't change it.

I also disagree with the concept that you change your gameplan to suit your players abilities and then change it as they develop. We are not in the business of winning a flag this year. We are in the business of winning some in the next 8 years. We should be playing our gameplan today for the future I think, that's what Geelong did and what Collingwood did. For example, we could avoid a thrashing like Thursday by putting 3 players behind the ball, limit the loss to 3 goals in a low scoring game and get a "better" result. But that achieves nothing and teaches the players nothing.

People are cutting their throat about Thursday but the reality is we are 2.5 from 5. Our wins have been against one poor team (who still managed to win last week) and Brisbane who I think have been competitive this year without winning. Our draw was against a very honest team where you don't win/draw unless you play well and execute.

It's this thinking that stops me panicking about games like Thursday but Thursday can't be dismissed. I don't think the balls have landed yet.

I'm going to respectfully disagree, I think many teams have different game plans and options (Perhaps Game Plan is too broad a term). All I mean by this is whereas other teams may try other things when plan A isn't working whereas we seem to do nothing. West Coast in their premiership era would restructure their backline and through Hunter forward in a crisis, Bulldogs did the same with Lake. Another example is Geelong against Hawthorn on Tuesday, after a first quarter in which Geelong defenders were getting dragged out of the backline and Hawthorn players beating them back to great effect either Geelong's coaching panel or players decided that Scarlett, or one or two other defenders would stay back deep and were able to stem the flow and we saw the result... There were many changes in this game alone, and these are two of the best teams in the comp. Maybe these changes aren't nescessarily to the whole 'game plan', but they are certainly changes in structure and strategy which changed the result.

Also, on another note, if putting three players behind the ball could have produced a more competetive result, or at least stemmed the flow while we were getting caned I wouldn't mind trying it. Obviously that is meant to be an extreme example and it wouldn't nescessarily work but I think we certainly could have tried something. Grimes to midfield? Davey to Half Back? Davey deep forward?

Obviously part of this loss was the players playing badly, the skils were horrible, but it has been a trend with Bailey that there is no plan B. Do you really think we gained anything long term from sticking to the plan A against West Coast?

[Sir Why You Little 36,696]

Why should I be careful about changing my tune? Who's hitching their wagon to someone?

The question was raised about "where are all the Bailey supporters". I merely said that I wasn't ready to make a call (although I still support him) and even if I did and I was wrong who gives a rats clacker unless of course you want to win the biggest dick competition (which many, perhaps most, on this forum do).

I used to visit a Collingwood site years ago, in 2004 and 2005 and guess what? They wanted Malthouse's balls on the table with Eddie's as a desert. They wanted to get rid of players who are now pivotal to their success and they wanted the administration changed. And need I talk about Thompson at the Cats. I've read these forums for years and I've seen "why do we always have to copy the opposition game plan".

The team that put us to the sword on Thursday is a case in point. Worsfold was thoroughly unpopular at WC and now he's a genius. When teams rise they rise quickly and one of the key reason IMO is that they reach a critical point where they have enough age and experience to implement game plans (refer post 1). I think that that has happened at WC. It also help when good players return. Cox, Kerr and Embley (who has been poor for a few years) come back, Kennedy is a year older and suddenly they succeed. In AFL footy there doesn't need to be a big difference on field for a big difference to be shown on the scoreboard.

Bailey might flop, who knows. His game plan might be terrible, I don't know. What I do know is that from a very young team with not a star to be seen we have produced some very impressive performances. That leads me to believe that the game plan has merit. It might be that the game plan, as Garry Lyon says is high risk high return and can't be implemented consistently enough to be feasible or it maybe that when the players can implement it that it blows opposition away and is lauded as the game plan that defeated the forward press. My thinking is that we don't have the players to implement it yet on a consistent basis and our players at the moment aren't very good so we can't properly judge the game plan although I concede that it's not winning followers at the moment.

The feature that distinguishes posters on this forum is some what to discuss these issues to explore and learn, other just want to vent their frustration because they went to the supermarket on Thursday and Mum didn't buy them the packet of biscuits they craved.

I don't want to be in the second group but that doesn't mean I wasn't despondent with the performance and don't recognize the obvious concerns as absolutely legitimate.

You make some fair points Snoop, but i just see the MFC as plateuing now. The Weagles game was the same as the Hawthorn game. Our Captain is not captain material (a potential great clubman) but not a captain. Beamer should be made Captain this week. Line in the sand. Go Forward.

Dean's job is done at the top level...He did good, but he can take this club no further IMO

Edited April 30, 2011 by why you little

[Roost It 1,434]

I don't think anyonyexpects us to be winning every game however every game the following aren't negotiable. Running hard, covering your man, attacking the ball and the contest and following set structures and plans. What must the likes of Trengove, Frawley and Grimes think when a coach instructs them to play a style of game that's outdated without any training to combat the opposition effectively. Teams with poor coaches lose players. We can't let this happen. Schwab and co. need to line up a new coach by Round 16 and then let Bailey know he won't be required next year. Let the new coach take the last 8 rounds, help with the draft and trade period and get us ready for 2012.

[Sir Why You Little 36,696]

I don't think anyonyexpects us to be winning every game however every game the following aren't negotiable. Running hard, covering your man, attacking the ball and the contest and following set structures and plans. What must the likes of Trengove, Frawley and Grimes think when a coach instructs them to play a style of game that's outdated without any training to combat the opposition effectively. Teams with poor coaches lose players. We can't let this happen. Schwab and co. need to line up a new coach by Round 16 and then let Bailey know he won't be required next year. Let the new coach take the last 8 rounds, help with the draft and trade period and get us ready for 2012.

^^^^ if this does not happen the club will die. High Profile coach with Finals experience...

[Roost It 1,434]

By the way Connolly and the assistant coaches need to go as well.

[Roost It 1,434]

^^^^ if this does not happen the club will die. High Profile coach with Finals experience...

We need to be active in the trade period if any talent is available.

[Sir Why You Little 36,696]

We need to be active in the trade period if any talent is available.

Of course we do...We need to be mean and nasty with other clubs to. It is time for the entire MFC to harden up. Otherwise it will die.

Last thursday was the turning point, right from that first bounce where we got SMASHED

[frankie_d 1,467]

Yep - if you were Scully, Trengove, Watts, Frawley, Tapscott, Jordie, you might have to face the choice of

1) playing with a whole lot of kids who get pushed around, with a game plan you don't believe in, for a club that's soft

or

2) go to GWS and play with a whole lot of kids who get pushed around, but have a coach with a track record of success and hardness, and get $$$, and know that you will be playing finals footy soonish.

That's a real risk. How must Trengove be feeling now? How mush The Sainted Jimmy be feeling now?

[Hannabal 4]

Firstly I don't think that teams have different gameplans. Ross Lyon took 18 months to two years to change Saints. You can tweak it but you can't change it.

People are cutting their throat about Thursday but the reality is we are 2.5 from 5.

You surprise me. Clubs do have different gameplans, although many only vary at the edges. I was listening to SEN today and one of the commentators spoke of an interview they had done with Lappin, who's now an assistant at Collingwood but last year was with Carlton. Lappin stated that at Carlton the gameplan was focussed on attack, but at Collingwood the gameplan is focussed on defence. He was surprised at the difference.

As for 2.5 from 5 ? You should consider a career in politics if spin is your go. Melbourne has the dubious honour of having statistically the two worst quarters of footy so far this year - the third against Hawthorn and the first against WC, although the last against WC would have to be right up there. 21 inside 50's for WC and 3 for Melbourne. It's extraordinary - and very gameplan driven. They're worse than any quarters put out by the Suns, or Port, yet you're highlighting a sham win/loss record off a couple of hollow wins ?

But as Todd Viney says, "we haven't concentrated much on gameplan and strategy this year". Incredible.

Edited May 1, 2011 by Hannabal

[Hannabal 4]

By the way Connolly and the assistant coaches need to go as well.

You seem to be deliberately ignoring the fact that Connolly has nothing to do with our gameplan or player development. Connolly has been superb for this club.

[Sir Why You Little 36,696]

You seem to be deliberately ignoring the fact that Connolly has nothing to do with our gameplan or player development. Connolly has been superb for this club.

It could be time to put Chris Connolly right in the middle of the Football Dept.

With a top line outside coach Connolly would work well. He is a fantastic people person Chris.

[praha 11,138]

Going by the logic of the OP, we should have been smashing teams in 2008 and 2009 because we had an old list and most of the teams we came up against we younger...

Stupid argument. West Coast finished last in 2010. Last. Despite them being strong, older, taller and whatever else, they finished last.

And yet, they absolutely destroyed us on Thursday night.

[Roost It 1,434]

You seem to be deliberately ignoring the fact that Connolly has nothing to do with our gameplan or player development. Connolly has been superb for this club.

A role in the marketing department sure. How is it that The Head of football operations has nothing to do with the gameplan? Besides, my point is that we need to make ours the best FD in the business. To me that means getting people who have been at the forefront of Premiership success in the last 6 - 8 years. Connolly hasn't been near a Premiership so in my book his position is up for grabs. Success starts at the top and I want the club to get a Premiership winning Head of Football to oversee everything that goes on in the FD. Geelong, Hawthorn and Collingwood are the most recent winners. Get the cheque book out and line up the best, it's clearly the only way we are going to win what we need to win.

[Sir Why You Little 36,696]

A role in the marketing department sure. How is it that The Head of football operations has nothing to do with the gameplan? Besides, my point is that we need to make ours the best FD in the business. To me that means getting people who have been at the forefront of Premiership success in the last 6 - 8 years. Connolly hasn't been near a Premiership so in my book his position is up for grabs. Success starts at the top and I want the club to get a Premiership winning Head of Football to oversee everything that goes on in the FD. Geelong, Hawthorn and Collingwood are the most recent winners. Get the cheque book out and line up the best, it's clearly the only way we are going to win what we need to win.

Spot on...Melbourne v Collingwood First v Second Queens Birthday seasons 2012-2018. Now that is what we are talking about. That is what Generates top coin & makes young kids follow the Demons for a lifetime.

Get the Best Coaches NOW!! otherwise we will not keep QB going forward. That Monday Public Holiday is worth Big coin to the Broadcasters now.

[Hannabal 4]

How is it that The Head of football operations has nothing to do with the gameplan?

Because he applied for the same position as Bailey and as a former senior coach he decided to keep himself at arm's length from the onfield playing side of things.

He's been great in organising Casey Fields, promoting the club, getting rid of our debt and increasing membership. Waste your energies on other members of the FD.

[Roost It 1,434]

Because he applied for the same position as Bailey and as a former senior coach he decided to keep himself at arm's length from the onfield playing side of things.

He's been great in organising Casey Fields, promoting the club, getting rid of our debt and increasing membership. Waste your energies on other members of the FD.

Ok. By the way my energy output on Connolly wouldn't open a door. Don't you find it a tad odd that the head of the FD doesn't discuss gameplan with the coach?

[Whispering_Jack 29,275]

I happen to be one of those who is and has been reasonably happy with the direction in which the club has been travelling over the past few years. That is not to say I'm pleased with the way the team has been playing since it won those games in the first week of the NAB Cup back in February. To the contrary, it's been a matter for despair watching the way the have played in the regular season to date and, in many ways, last Thursday's debacle was the inevitable accident waiting to happen.

I'm not making excuses but rather looking for reasons and answers that might help us get things back on track which I'm sure the football department is searching for as well.

Others have alluded to the team's lack of experience and lightness of body. The selectors can determine to go the way it has over the past two months or they can reintroduce Matt Bate, Joel Macdonald and Matty Warnock into the side and throw in Neville Jetta, Addam Maric and Ricky Petterd. All six have been going well at Casey and (yes I know there's a suitcase load of difference in standard) couldn't do any worse than the bottom six from last week did.

I'm old fashioned but there used to be a time when the selectors used to send messages to players by dropping them. That shouldn't be a difficult task this week and I would hope that some or all of the six I mentioned above will be in the team to take on Adelaide even if some might claim it's a case of rotating deckchairs on the Titanic. It won't be because the added experience will help the likes of Green and Davey to lead the team.

Snoopy says we have a third world midfield but I disagree. It looks third world when it's playing without confidence but if you add Tom Scully and Jordie McKenzie when they return from injury and if Jack Grimes is ever tried there, then the midfield gets much better. Add development and weight onto Jordan Gysberts and two impressive rookies from Casey (Evans and Nicholson) and, in the medium term, that midfield suddenly becomes much more potent. And then the opportunity might arise in the trades to add some icing to the cake.

There's more. We have no true key forwards at the moment but I see good things ahead of us when Jack Watts and Liam Jurrah get another 20 games in their legs and add Lucas Cook and Jeremy Howe into the mix. Incidentally, unlike some others I think those young blokes and Tom McDonald have a lot to learn from a player of Fevola's calibre. If anyone's concerned about our lack of "mongrel", I'm sure they would agree.

As for the coaching position, that will surely sort itself out by the end of the year. I can't see any advantage to any club in trying to knife the incumbent at a time when the team is in the top eight (albeit by dint of a friendly fixture). We should all be pulling together to achieve positive results at this time rather than the destructive attacks on the club that have abounded in the past few days.