2011 Pass Mark

[drdrake 3,057]

We should keep a record of posters that don't believe we can assess 2011 on win loss. If we start the season 0 and 6 but we are "competitive" against bottom 8 sides are we happy because we are close to winning and we are still improving or will we be shouting for Bailey to get sacked I guarantee you the later will be the case. If we finish the year with 6-8 wins will we all be happy for Bailey to get another contract extension or will we be calling for his sacking, once again I think the latter will be the case.

Next year will be a test to see if Bailey can coach a team to win rather then just being competitive.

[jayceebee31 692]

15 wins is a top 4 team...

E- that can be done-have a good look at the fixture-

[e25 5]

E- that can be done-have a good look at the fixture-

Yes, but to expect 13-15 wins is bloody absurd.

I think you'd have to agree, if we finish 2011 in the top 4, we are well ahead of the development curve.

[e25 5]

We should keep a record of posters that don't believe we can assess 2011 on win loss. If we start the season 0 and 6 but we are "competitive" against bottom 8 sides are we happy because we are close to winning and we are still improving or will we be shouting for Bailey to get sacked I guarantee you the later will be the case. If we finish the year with 6-8 wins will we all be happy for Bailey to get another contract extension or will we be calling for his sacking, once again I think the latter will be the case.

Next year will be a test to see if Bailey can coach a team to win rather then just being competitive.

I have never shouted for Bailey to be sacked, only ridiculed those that have done so.

If we are 0-6 but are competitive, I will not be happy, but I won't be calling for Bailey's head.

[Hannabal 4]

No, obviously not.

I could have been a bit more harsh about it, but held back.

I mean this in the nicest possible way, but do you ever shut up ?

I assume you're male, but you exhibit tendencies which have me questioning that conclusion. Next time you feel the urge to squeeze the trigger on the reply icon just stop and think. And then think again. Thinking...

Does this crap I'm about to emit add value to the forum and end users ? Think some more.

But alas, you'll give in to an overwhelming temptation to disgorge typical drivel. Occasionally (note the italics) you'll provide a morcel of thought that has merit, but I don't usually wear waders to work.

[H_T 2,941]

We should keep a record of posters that don't believe we can assess 2011 on win loss. If we start the season 0 and 6 but we are "competitive" against bottom 8 sides are we happy because we are close to winning and we are still improving or will we be shouting for Bailey to get sacked I guarantee you the later will be the case. If we finish the year with 6-8 wins will we all be happy for Bailey to get another contract extension or will we be calling for his sacking, once again I think the latter will be the case.

Next year will be a test to see if Bailey can coach a team to win rather then just being competitive.

I think you need to consider and recognise that 2011 is still very much development mode. We've lost a little experience and we're going to be playing first or second year players and still get games into them (like last year). Sure we love the win-loss ratio and everyone keeps their eye on it. But given where we are at, whilst we expect some further improvement, the FD use a range of other KPI's in measuring improvement; not just win loss ratio. Winning quarters, clearances, i50's, stoppages. - Improving in each should help improve the side and the result might be a better win/loss ratio. It might not as well.

If we are 0-6, even having been competitive, clearly it would not be where the club would like to be. And the doomsdayers will be out in force saying "I told you so"...that's the nature of footy and this forum. I think next year is about remaining competitive, staying in the game for longer. Introducing more youngsters and developing them further will be the go. No doubt aiming to win every quarter, every game.

In other words take care of the little things first. Do them well, and that should take care of everything else. Small steps.

Next year will be a test to see if Bailey can coach a team to win rather then just being competitive.

That's what many said this time last year.

[old dee 23,085]

That is not what he is saying at all, and I expect better from you R.

We are saying that you cannot judge the MFC next year on wins and losses - we are still developing;

Our best mids will 20, 19, and 19.

Our CHB and FB will 22/23.

Our CHF will be 20 and our long term hope for FF will be 22.

If we can stop getting blown away in quarters and win 40+ quarters then we will be thereabouts. I expect us to be playing for a finals spot in Rd 24 against PA but we are not going to win the flag so who gives a flying frack.

Some think that winning 13 games will mean progress and it probably will, but winning 9 games and have Watts tear up 5 games and Trengove learn HB, and have McKenzie average 20+ disposals is just as good for our flag hopes.

"and have Watts tear up 5 games"

I really look forward to that rpfc!

Any idea which games?

[Weedster 174]

We have a very good draw probably the best in 5 years.

We look like starting 2011 with a near full list of fit players with good pre seasons behind them.

The number of games played by our list has risen considerably on last year.

To finish any lower than 9th in IMO will be a poor result.

I will be disappointed if we do not make the finals

Spot on

[rpfc 27,647]

"and have Watts tear up 5 games"

I really look forward to that rpfc!

Any idea which games?

The games he is in form and is given the limelight in the forward line.

An opportunity for him to shine and develop to the detriment of the team's ability to win on the day.

More valuable than 4 points?

I think we can do/get both against many teams, but yes.

(I realise I didn't answer your question.)

[e25 5]

I mean this in the nicest possible way, but do you ever shut up ?

I assume you're male, but you exhibit tendencies which have me questioning that conclusion. Next time you feel the urge to squeeze the trigger on the reply icon just stop and think. And then think again. Thinking...

Does this crap I'm about to emit add value to the forum and end users ? Think some more.

But alas, you'll give in to an overwhelming temptation to disgorge typical drivel. Occasionally (note the italics) you'll provide a morcel of thought that has merit, but I don't usually wear waders to work.

Nicest possible way?

Not really necessary H.

[Redleg 38,162]

That is not what he is saying at all, and I expect better from you R.

Well actually I repeated his statements and asked if that result would satisfy him. I know exactly what he is saying and you don't need to add condescendingly that "you" expect better of me.

I understand that there are many indicators of progress in a footy side. One of which no doubt is the team winning games. I have put his indicators back to him to ask if in the absence of winning games he would be satisfied with progress in other ways such as individual improvement. While many would be happy with that I am sure that most would still want more games won.

Further if next year is not about winning games then is 2011 or 2012 or 2013? Who says when the winning games button is turned on as being a key indicator of improvement or for that matter failure.

In my view winning games is an indicator of team improvement to the rest of the footy world and while inside the club there may be joy at individual improvement, there would be also be disappointment if less games are won. Just ask the Board, the members and the Sponsors.

[old dee 23,085]

The games he is in form and is given the limelight in the forward line.

An opportunity for him to shine and develop to the detriment of the team's ability to win on the day.

More valuable than 4 points?

I think we can do/get both against many teams, but yes.

(I realise I didn't answer your question.)

Just pulling your chain!

But I would like to see him turn the corner next year.

With my luck it will be the 5 games I do get to in 2011!

Edited December 16, 2010 by old dee

[jayceebee31 692]

Yes, but to expect 13-15 wins is bloody absurd.

I think you'd have to agree, if we finish 2011 in the top 4, we are well ahead of the development curve.

yep- that maybe true and the following year we may find it hard to consolidate but with this fixture we should really start to gain that winning feeling.14 wins as far as I am concerned.If we didn't I would not be heart broken..but we would not have to improve much from this years performance to gain the quota-I feel we can achieve..

[Redleg 38,162]

Redleg if Bob agrees with me, and he just seems to have restated my position, he's saying that wins are not the measure of success for next year.

All of us want to win a flag and to do that we need to start to show certain characteristics. These characteristics are not measured by wins but by looking at certain aspects of the performance of the team. I've specified gameplan (evidence that we have a coaching panel smart enough to compete and the emergence of elite players because without them you can forget it). Bob may have others.

No, Bobs not joking, he just looks beyond simplistic measures that in themselves mean little.

I understand what you are saying, but I don't think that wins are a simplistic measure of improvement. I think they are an indicator along with many others. I just wonder how long our fans would continue to be happy if players improved but the team didn't win games. I think one goes hand in hand with the other.

Would we call Bails a good coach if we win 3 brownlows, get 3 AA's and hardly win a game in the next few years? I know that you can say if players get better we will win more games but that is not necessarily true. Remember the old adage, a champion team will beat a team of champions. I just believe that the winning should start as soon as possible as along with that comes the feeling of success and competing well against the best. That is an enormous benefit to any sportsman.

PS. I have been and still am as patient as one can be waiting for our next period of success and I do see the bigger picture. No one was more vocal than me about losing games and getting draft picks.

[jayceebee31 692]

this is a repost-----sorry.

i've already said it...but dean bailey will be melbournes whipping boy if we don't perform.

he's into fourth year as a coach...the members, supporters, players, club and media will jump on his back if we don't see an improvement on last year.

he has a team full of young talent. we came close to beating last years premiers twice.

the expectation for melb in 2011 will be to play finals. If we finsh 10th or 9th...then so be it...but any lower and questions will be raised about bailey and his abilty.

thoughts?

I agree somewhat- this is the year we should progress dramatically.

[jayceebee31 692]

That is not what he is saying at all, and I expect better from you R.

We are saying that you cannot judge the MFC next year on wins and losses - we are still developing;

Our best mids will 20, 19, and 19.

Our CHB and FB will 22/23.

Our CHF will be 20 and our long term hope for FF will be 22.

If we can stop getting blown away in quarters and win 40+ quarters then we will be thereabouts. I expect us to be playing for a finals spot in Rd 24 against PA but we are not going to win the flag so who gives a flying frack.

Some think that winning 13 games will mean progress and it probably will, but winning 9 games and have Watts tear up 5 games and Trengove learn HB, and have McKenzie average 20+ disposals is just as good for our flag hopes.

Who do you propose to play -CHB & FB- Frawley being one-who is the other??

[The Jacks 0]

I'd expect us to be better than last season in all categories. A gradual improvement from pretty much everyone, and Jamar, Green, Davey and Chip hopefully holding their stellar form from last season.

Some players - like Sylvia, Moloney and Petterd just need to play a full season for us to improve in their parts of the ground/team.

Making the finals would be brilliant, but I don't think we'll finsih top, so that is dependant on how other teams do. If the seven players mentioned above do what I just said I'm pretty sure we will make the finals.

Probably more improtant than this is seeing improvement and potential in our first, second and third year players. There's no doubt we've got some potential guns, so if at least some of those guys continue to develop and take a step closeer to fulfilling that potential, then it's a good year (along with some of the above).

As for injuries, there isn't a whole lot we can do about that (I hope), so no real point talking about it in terms fo pass/fail.

Anyway, as a prediction of a ladder position, I'll say 8th with 11 wins.

[rpfc 27,647]

I understand what you are saying, but I don't think that wins are a simplistic measure of improvement. I think they are an indicator along with many others. I just wonder how long our fans would continue to be happy if players improved but the team didn't win games. I think one goes hand in hand with the other.

Would we call Bails a good coach if we win 3 brownlows, get 3 AA's and hardly win a game in the next few years? I know that you can say if players get better we will win more games but that is not necessarily true. Remember the old adage, a champion team will beat a team of champions. I just believe that the winning should start as soon as possible as along with that comes the feeling of success and competing well against the best. That is an enormous benefit to any sportsman.

PS. I have been and still am as patient as one can be waiting for our next period of success and I do see the bigger picture. No one was more vocal than me about losing games and getting draft picks.

Wins matter, I agree. But unless we are a top 4 team we are not going to win a flag.

I don't think we are a top 4 team in 2011 so we are not going to win a flag.

I therefore hold other measurements in higher regard than wins and losses for next year.

That is the essence of my argument.

[Sir Why You Little 35,114]

Wins matter, I agree. But unless we are a top 4 team we are not going to win a flag.

I don't think we are a top 4 team in 2011 so we are not going to win a flag.

I therefore hold other measurements in higher regard than wins and losses for next year.

That is the essence of my argument.

i see and understand your point rp, but the wider football public will expect more from the MFC next year. We have had 4 years under the radar, so i wonder whether we will able to improve quarter by quarter rather than wins? Will the Mike Shehans and Rohan Conolly's go for the throat if we do not win, or will they continue to observe the metamorphisis.

Interesting situation with next years media.

[Robbie57 1,996]

I think a pass will be around the 9th on ladder.

Here is where i think everyone will end up (last years finish):

1.Collingwood (1)

2.Fremantle (6)

3.Western Bulldogs (4)

4.St Kilda (3)

5.Geelong (2)

6.Hawthorn (7)

7.Carlton (8)

8.Melbourne (11)

9.Sydney (5)

10.Essendon (14)

11.North Melbourne(9)

12.Port (10)

13. Adelaide (11)

14.Richmond (15)

15.Lions (13)

16.West Coast (16)

17. Gold Coast (-)

In my list I think the Dorks are suspect. I think they might just have a shocker this year.

So you could put them lower on the list.

[e25 5]

Essendon is far too high on that list.

Bottom 4 side, a certainty.

North will be just outside the 8 at worst.

They are only going to get better.

[Robbie57 1,996]

Essendon is far too high on that list.

Bottom 4 side, a certainty.

North will be just outside the 8 at worst.

They are only going to get better.

I think you are right I really struggled over North.

[jayceebee31 692]

Essendon is far too high on that list.

Bottom 4 side, a certainty.

North will be just outside the 8 at worst.

They are only going to get better.

North looks like a top 8 team to me. However, just watched the replay of our last match..we can beat them.

[e25 5]

North looks like a top 8 team to me. However, just watched the replay of our last match..we can beat them.

We can, but they have a side a lot like ours.

Lots of young talent that is starting to develop.

I think our tall stocks are better and our mids have more class, but you can draw parallels between the 2.

[dee-luded 2,958]

You do realise that Miller played only 6 games this year ? Why so many have to include him as a seemingly significant loss is beyond me. And if you agree that he's not a significant loss then why include him ?

It just helps the line of thinking, doesn't it ? I'd suggest that you re-evaluate the line of thinking.

Yes, I do, and I do recognise that simply having these people on the training track & around the club is a support on its own for those just starting to attain real leadership aspirations. For such a young list now exposed by the loss of maturity, the pressure will be felt by the remaining players of & entering leadership range. A player such as Sylvia will load himself almost beyond his weight bearing capability.

I just hope he doesn't overtry.