If Nathan Jones goes...

[Guest hangon007]

I sometimes wonder if some players are just the "heart & soul" of your football club.

Their input cannot be measured purely by cold hard simplistic stats or if you can put them in silly little boxes "flag core".

Wonder if there is a psychological impact to the playing group (& to a lesser extent the supporter group) if you were to lose a player of that nature?

I wonder ...

Edited September 17, 2010 by hangon007

[titan_uranus 22,827]

Clubs are built around their 'culture'

We have sacrificed enough winning culture to get a list that can develop into a premiership list, and we need to push forward to in developing a strong club culture for Melbourne. Trading Nathan Jones would be a massive step back in developing the 'culture'. He bleeds red and blue, he is a club man and is still young and can easily be in our top 10, and besides all that he is an absolute workhorse who just wants to win. I can understand being ruthless about older blokes and letting them go, but Nathan Jones isn't in that category and that's they won't trade him unless he is happy where he is going and wants to go there...

I would have thought Brad Miller gave his all to the club, was a fantastic club man, a good leader as well. And it's not like Jones is one of our stars.

[H_T 2,941]

Don't forget Brad Green in the tough man equation.

He can easily go into the middle if needed.

I agree with dandeeman. Green contests well for marks and puts the body on the line in this regard, but he is not one that strikes me as one who contests time and again in the middle for the hard ball. Brad is more likely to be the finisher/deliverer after 'receiving' the ball when it comes out - in the middle. More likely thanks to contributions from Mckenzie, Moloney, Jones, Jamar, Scully and the ever durable Junior.

[Heart Beats True 532]

More news on the Jones and Bruce front but nothing definite: http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/the-buzz-why-do-people-hate-on-harry/story-e6frf9jf-1225920718084

BTW - I don't think Jon Ralph checks his articles before publishing. Numerous mistakes however interesting reading.

[e25 5]

I sometimes wonder if some players are just the "heart & soul" of your football club.

Their input cannot be measured purely by cold hard simplistic stats or if you can put them in silly little boxes "flag core".

Wonder if there is a psychological impact to the playing group (& to a lesser extent the supporter group) if you were to lose a player of that nature?

I wonder ...

Are you serious?

How is the concept of a "heart & soul" type player any less silly than the concept of a "flag core" player?

Chemistry comes into it, but as a supporter it's all perceived and speculative.

You have no idea how important Jones is to the chemistry or "psychology" of the team.

[Guest hangon007]

Are you serious?

How is the concept of a "heart & soul" type player any less silly than the concept of a "flag core" player?

Chemistry comes into it, but as a supporter it's all perceived and speculative.

You have no idea how important Jones is to the chemistry or "psychology" of the team.

Settle down - "I wonder" - probably should add.

This time of the year supporters want to put our players into "silly little boxes" ... then subsequently want to hold onto or trade that little box. But spend half their time arguing my box is worth more than yours. or After a trade is done they want to instantly judge it ... who was the winner - who was the loser.

Trading players is almost becoming like trading real estate - some get very emotional about it some treat it like a business.

But some around here have this bent notation is all about ... How they are perceived.

The FD are going make some decision we like ... some we dont ... you just accept it. Because, many of those decisions just cant be properly judged for 1,2,3,4 or 5 years.

Edited September 17, 2010 by hangon007

[e25 5]

Settle down..?

It's a valid question.

[ox_5 163]

Settle down..?

It's a valid question.

I agree, very valid. Cant see what you need to settle down about either E25...very interesting response indeed.

[Guest hangon007]

Settle down..?

It's a valid question.

No problems. "You have no idea how important Jones is to the chemistry or "psychology" of the team."

How do you know that? or Are are you just trying to inflame the discussion?

I dont think you are. Quite happy to give you the benefit of the doubt.

Just appears to me that many posters attitudes are ... we are damned if we do we are damned if we dont.

We trade Jones people "get upset" ... we dont trade Jones people "get upset"

We target Mundy people "get upset" ... we dont target Mundy people "get upset"

etc, etc, etc, etc

However, rightly or wrongly ... with anonymity often comes the naked truth.

[rpfc 27,646]

Just to defend my reference to Flag Core players - it means those players that I feel will make up the core of a flag winning team.

Hardly a silly little box, h007...

It's an important box.

A very important box.

[e25 5]

No problems. "You have no idea how important Jones is to the chemistry or "psychology" of the team."

How do you know that? or Are are you just trying to inflame the discussion?

I dont think you are. Quite happy to give you the benefit of the doubt.

Just appears to me that many posters attitudes are ... we are damned if we do we are damned if we dont.

We trade Jones people "get upset" ... we dont trade Jones people "get upset"

We target Mundy people "get upset" ... we dont target Mundy people "get upset"

etc, etc, etc, etc

However, rightly or wrongly ... with anonymity often comes the naked truth.

Not at all.

I think we SHOULD trade Jones, provided we get something equitable for him.

He has serious value and is surplus to requirements, imho.

What I said was put in context by the previous sentence.

"As a supporter..."

We have no idea of his place in the team in terms of it's culture and chemistry.

We only know what the club allows us to see. Therefore, to claim he is the "heart and soul of the club" is an assumption I don't think any supporter is educated enough to make.

[Guest hangon007]

Not at all.

I think we SHOULD trade Jones, provided we get something equitable for him.

He has serious value and is surplus to requirements, imho.

What I said was put in context by the previous sentence.

"As a supporter..."

We have no idea of his place in the team in terms of it's culture and chemistry.

We only know what the club allows us to see. Therefore, to claim he is the "heart and soul of the club" is an assumption I don't think any supporter is educated enough to make.

No problems with that. Especially what pleases me is the IMHO - thank you.

I'm not saying I agree. I'm not saying I don't agree. This "one" I'm really torn.

Which is unusual for me. Normally I would back our boy 100%.

Edited September 18, 2010 by hangon007

[H_T 2,941]

Just to defend my reference to Flag Core players - it means those players that I feel will make up the core of a flag winning team.

Hardly a silly little box, h007...

It's an important box.

A very important box.

No need to defend it rpfc. I think it's silly to even contemplate it as "silly."

If there is no flag core (backbone, spine, engine room, x factor, grunt, footy smarts - and anything else that may make up flag core), in essence you can forget about a flag.

Maybe it needs it's own thread....

[sylvinator 96]

No need to defend it rpfc. I think it's silly to even contemplate it as "silly."

If there is no flag core (backbone, spine, engine room, x factor, grunt, footy smarts - and anything else that may make up flag core), in essence you can forget about a flag.

Maybe it needs it's own thread....

If Collingwood has Goldsack, MacCaffer, Ben Ried, Leon Davis, Allan Toovey, Jarryd Blair and Chris Dawes in the premiership best 22 (assuming they win next week), then there is no reason why Jones can't be a good contributor in any future premiership.

Any suggestions that a premiership team has 22 gun players is just plain wrong.

Every premiership team has its own unique set of core players in a unique set of positions.

For Geelong, their core stars were all in the midfield and one in defence, while Collingwood's core players are more evenly spaced across the field. For Hawthorn it was tall forwards and midfield, while for Brisbane it was their defence and midfield.

Not one of these premiership teams ever had the perfect team, and there were always up to 6+ players in the team that were role players in the team and along for the ride.

[Lil_red_fire_engine 10,346]

If Collingwood has Goldsack, MacCaffer, Ben Ried, Leon Davis, Allan Toovey, Jarryd Blair and Chris Dawes in the premiership best 22 (assuming they win next week), then there is no reason why Jones can't be a good contributor in any future premiership.

Any suggestions that a premiership team has 22 gun players is just plain wrong.

Every premiership team has its own unique set of core players in a unique set of positions.

For Geelong, their core stars were all in the midfield and one in defence, while Collingwood's core players are more evenly spaced across the field. For Hawthorn it was tall forwards and midfield, while for Brisbane it was their defence and midfield.

Not one of these premiership teams ever had the perfect team, and there were always up to 6+ players in the team that were role players in the team and along for the ride.

Excellent post. Now all we need is Nathan Jones to realise he is one of those role players and not a frontliner and we will be fine.

[Hannabal 4]

If Collingwood has Goldsack, MacCaffer, Ben Ried, Leon Davis, Allan Toovey, Jarryd Blair and Chris Dawes in the premiership best 22 (assuming they win next week), then there is no reason why Jones can't be a good contributor in any future premiership.

Any suggestions that a premiership team has 22 gun players is just plain wrong.

Every premiership team has its own unique set of core players in a unique set of positions.

For Geelong, their core stars were all in the midfield and one in defence, while Collingwood's core players are more evenly spaced across the field. For Hawthorn it was tall forwards and midfield, while for Brisbane it was their defence and midfield.

Not one of these premiership teams ever had the perfect team, and there were always up to 6+ players in the team that were role players in the team and along for the ride.

There have no doubt been worse players that have played in a premiership team than Jones, but I aspire for the MFC to have better midfielders than Jones if, and when, their time comes to have a genuine crack at a flag. Jones is good depth and for that reason I'm happy to keep him, but considering that games of football are predominantly won in the middle we better hope that he's not best 22 worthy when that time comes. And I'm certain he won't be.

I'm glad you touched on the fact that none of the Collingwood players you listed are midfielders. I put it to you that that is no coincidence.

[titan_uranus 22,827]

I'm glad you touched on the fact that none of the Collingwood players you listed are midfielders. I put it to you that that is no coincidence.

Blair is. But I like Blair, he's good, and I wouldn't say that Jones is much better.

Point is taken though. Swan, Pendlebury, Ball, Didak and Thomas are streets in front of our midfield at the moment, so keeping players like Jones in the side hamper our attempts to get a premiership-quality midfield.

[H_T 2,941]

If Collingwood has Goldsack, MacCaffer, Ben Ried, Leon Davis, Allan Toovey, Jarryd Blair and Chris Dawes in the premiership best 22 (assuming they win next week), then there is no reason why Jones can't be a good contributor in any future premiership.

Those Collingwood players mentioned play different roles to that of what Jones provides. As H alluded to, they are not necessarily midfielders. Nathan Jones is.

But that is beside the point ~ I was making re: your opinion on the term "flag core".

[Jaded No More 59,201]

but considering that games of football are predominantly won in the middle

I'd also argue (and this is probably slightly off topic), that these days, games of football are also largely won from the backline.

The four finalists this year have 2 things in common, a great midfield with good skills, and a solid backline with some good running half back flankers. And with the exception of St Kilda (or Reiwoldt I should say), none of the top 4 possess a genuinely good forwardline that delivers consistent results.

So if you take those points and apply them to us, I'd say that our backline is very promising albeit perhaps lacking another good runner (Bennell/Strauss/Blease?), and that our forwardline is coming along nicely. It's the midfield that needs to really develop to take us to a top 4 spot, and this is where I think Jones is hanging by a thread. Because he's a solid contributor, but you need nothing less than B+ graders running through the midfield in order to win a flag. And if you're going to be a B+ grader in a premiership team, you've gotta be the sort of player who can win a heap of clearances, and/or tag a star out of the game. Jones can't do either.

[Hannabal 4]

I'd also argue (and this is probably slightly off topic), that these days, games of football are also largely won from the backline.

A good defence is imperative to win a flag.

Games are won in the midfield. The half back line, more than ever, has become part of the midfield.

[DemonSG 1]

Will be interesting to see if NJ's tally tonight will reflect his B&F placing...

Predictions?

[rpfc 27,646]

Will be interesting to see if NJ's tally tonight will reflect his B&F placing...

Predictions?

I guess it depends on whether you value the input on list management of McLaren or Wenn over Bailey and Connolly.

[e25 5]

I doubt Jones will get a brownlow vote, therefore it will tell us nothing.

[old55 21,704]

Will be interesting to see if NJ's tally tonight will reflect his B&F placing...

Predictions?

Brent Grgic, Big Al, Godders, Belly, Ferg and CJ all polled Brownlow votes for us.

[Tricky 337]

I doubt Jones will get a brownlow vote, therefore it will tell us nothing.

not a single vote - really? I think the opposite.