Do we need to draft a ruckman?

[RalphiusMaximus 6,012]

Jeff White was so overated. We dont need anybody like him. Majak Daw for me!

White was one of the best rucks in the league until needless rule changes crippled his game. Sadly, the same rules are still there to ruin the chances of anyone who plays like him as well.

[Crackers 67]

White was one of the best rucks in the league until needless rule changes crippled his game. Sadly, the same rules are still there to ruin the chances of anyone who plays like him as well.

Jeff White was also rated highly and was a number one pick. All of the options spoken about to be picked up aren't good ruckmen. They are the best in this draft pool but clubs don't really rate their ability atm.

[The O 39]

If we're serious about getting a ruckman out of this years national draft, I hope it's Vardy at Pick 18 otherwise I think it'll be a waste of time. He's miles ahead of others in consideration.

I'd much rather see us rookie 2 talls (ideally one being a ruckman who can be used elsewhere) and hope that we stay well clear of Daw who has been severly over hyped (due to his background and not his abilities). Whilst he's extremely raw, I'd much rather pick a mature age ruckman with some size (ie 20-24) from one of the state leagues. As I believe Spencer isn't up to the grade to play senior AFL, and Johnson hasn't shown enough progress. Whilst Jamar showed good progress in the later part of the year, and Meeson showed some of his potential we appear severly lacking in having a ruckman capable of playing good, consistent football.

[Carn dees 108]

Jeff White was so overated. We dont need anybody like him. Majak Daw for me!

God i hope that was a joke

[woe31 0]

Jeff White was so overated. We dont need anybody like him. Majak Daw for me!

Yeah, White was nothing like that sure thing Majak Daw.....

[Luck Lucy 0]

We're very fortunate to have a number of early picks so that when we get to 18 we could take a stab at a promising ruckman at that stage. However, he would have to have exceptional ability to be taken at that stage and all of the pundits are suggesting there are no ruck standouts of that quality in this draft. Is Vardy good enough to be selected at 18 and if we need a ruckman badly enough why didn't we trade for one? And if most of the ruckmen at the club are spuds as alleged by some around here, why are they still at the club?

[Its Miller time 6]

You only have to think back to the Vics vs All-stars game and remember Josh Fraser running for the Vics to realise there are very few good ruckman in the competition.

Maybe its just me thinking ruckman are boring (except for PJ you never know what he is going to do) but i'd rather not waste pick 18 on one.

[The Chazz 4,077]

We're very fortunate to have a number of early picks so that when we get to 18 we could take a stab at a promising ruckman at that stage. However, he would have to have exceptional ability to be taken at that stage and all of the pundits are suggesting there are no ruck standouts of that quality in this draft. Is Vardy good enough to be selected at 18 and if we need a ruckman badly enough why didn't we trade for one? And if most of the ruckmen at the club are spuds as alleged by some around here, why are they still at the club?

Good point Luck Lucy. I think we missed the boat by not trying to trade for Mumford. He never indicated that he wanted to go to Sydney, they just offered him a few $$ and he was gorn! He would have been the perfect investment for minimal outlay (Buckley and pick 34 might have got him to us - we may not even use 34 as it is!). Geelong did the hard work and waited for him to develop (or lose weight), they pumped about 18 games in to him this season, why didn't we just take him off their hands??? We all say how we're sick of developing players then having them leave (ie. Scott Thompson), it was our golden opportunity to do it to someone else for a change, and fill that hole of a reasonable ruck.

Personally, I think Meesen showed enough this year (albeit in 4 games), Jamar did enough, Johnson seems ok to me (I'm about the only Melbourne supporter that thinks that!), and Spencer, well, Spencer, hmm...he seems to be our version of Mark Blake - supporters love him, the club loves him, no idea why cos he's frigging useless, I do nt understand the fetish some people have to elevate him to the senior list. Thankfully the Club has some common sense and left him as a rookie again for 2010, AMEN!

Let's face some facts, there aren't too many A+ rucks in the comp. Sandilands (in my view) stands head and shoulders above any one else (not just cos he's 8 foot tall!). It's quite a simple theory, if our rucks are being beaten on the day, why don't the midfielders rove to the opposition rucks - not rocket science.

Having said that, if Vardy is around at 18, and we have picked up a KPF at 11, I'd be happy. It should mean that we wont elevate Spencer at the end of next season and he will go off to country football and never be seen in a Dees jumper again - more than happy to make a public apology if he turns out to be a star! Wont be writing my speech in a hurry.

However, I wont be surprised if we go for 4 mids with our first 4 picks. It's clear that they are grooming Stef Martin to play that Full Forward/2nd or 3rd ruck role (ie Justin Kozi...). Although offering Jamar a 1 year contract might not see that eventuate. I think our first 4 picks will hinge on the PSD#1 pick, if we know Ball is happy to become a Dee via the PSD, we will obviously get a tall in the first. If we get Bradshaw at pick 1, we will get 4 mids. While we have a youth policy, Bradshaw would be a top pick for Watts to learn from, and most importantly, take the Number 1 defender of opposition clubs. Can you imagine Scarlett or Lake playing on Miller or Watts??? Give Bradshaw a 3 year contract, let Watts develop so that when Bradshaw retires, Jack will be the Champion he promised to be. That will also give Stef Martin 3 more years to develop as a KPF/Ruck without the regular close-checking of the better defenders. One thing with Bradshaw is that HE WILL kick goals for us. The other thing with Bradshaw is that he wants to go to Sydney!

My "dream" draft scenario;

#1 1/2. Trengove

#1 1/2. Scully (we have picks 1 and 2, which added together makes 3, then averaged out is 1.5 - I can't split either of the 2!!!)

#11. Ball (means we have traded McLean for Ball - I'm happy with that)

#18. Vardy

#34 and remaining picks... Pass

PSD1. Bradshaw

[dee-luded 2,959]

do we need to draft a ruckman this year?

we already have 4 designated ruckman plus Martin who i like as the second ruck.

should we be looking at Vardy or James Craig in his coming draft or should we go for another midfielder?

my perfect draft:

1. Scully

2. Trengove

11. Butcher

18. Vardy

34. D. Grimes

PSD 1. Ball

Have a quick look at other teams lists, I did some weeks back & a couple of teams I saw had 5 & 6 Rucks about their list.

Didn't we nearly run out of Rucks this season, 1 more wouldn't hurt too much.

[Dee tention 611]

Majak Daw Pick 34. Otherwise no!!!

[deanox 9,683]

you get 38 listed players plus 8 rookie listed players.

if you have players on the veterans list they are not counted in your 38, however you reduce your rookie list for each player. ie 38 listed, 2 veterans and 6 rookies.

edit: that means we have 4 spots on the list and 2 rookie spots atm. 5 delisted of which one was a veteran. if another player is upgraded to veterans list (green or bruce? not sure if they are eligible) we then have another listed spot.

and to the topic: yes i think we need a ruckman, but i still dont think ruckmen are THAT important so i am loath to use a top 20 pick when we could rookie or use late picks (which we wont have). dilema.

Edited November 2, 2009 by deanox

[Spaghetti 264]

Vardy could slide, not sure he'd get to 34, but it seems he is seen as early second round for the simple fact he is seen as the best ruckman in the draft. Id rather take a Black/Carlisle combo with 11/18 than Vardy. I don't rate ruckmen all that much.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

We're very fortunate to have a number of early picks so that when we get to 18 we could take a stab at a promising ruckman at that stage. However, he would have to have exceptional ability to be taken at that stage and all of the pundits are suggesting there are no ruck standouts of that quality in this draft. Is Vardy good enough to be selected at 18 and if we need a ruckman badly enough why didn't we trade for one? And if most of the ruckmen at the club are spuds as alleged by some around here, why are they still at the club?

You dont "punt" pick 18 on a ruckman particularly when there appear few if any that are quality.

As for trading for a ruckman, how many have been actually traded that would come to MFC on reasonable $$$$?

The existing ruckman at this club are contracted and are either moderate with injury problems (Jamar) , not good enough and injured (Meesen), simply not good enough (PJ) and Spencer (young raw and promising). At the end of 2010, they will all be uncontracted. At this point Meesen and PJ would go. Jamar aside none of the ruckman have trade value and we must unfortunately continue with a ruck group that is generally ordinary.

It's quite a simple theory, if our rucks are being beaten on the day, why don't the midfielders rove to the opposition rucks - not rocket science.

Its because our midfield is 3rd world. Th problem with conceding the ruck hit out is that it gives the opposition repeated first use of the ball. Now why did Colliingwood draft Jolly and Sydney draft Mumford on big $$$.....Hmmmm

Having said that, if Vardy is around at 18, and we have picked up a KPF at 11, I'd be happy. It should mean that we wont elevate Spencer at the end of next season and he will go off to country football and never be seen in a Dees jumper again - more than happy to make a public apology if he turns out to be a star! Wont be writing my speech in a hurry.

The irony is that Spencer offers more in the ruck contests than Meesen and PJ put together.

However, I wont be surprised if we go for 4 mids with our first 4 picks. I think our first 4 picks will hinge on the PSD#1 pick, if we know Ball is happy to become a Dee via the PSD, we will obviously get a tall in the first. If we get Bradshaw at pick 1, we will get 4 mids. ...... The other thing with Bradshaw is that he wants to go to Sydney!

Quite possible that we may take 4 mids with our first 4 picks and it will have nothing to do with the PSD. We take the four best assessed players available at our pick time. Taking Bradshaw at PSD 1 will not impact that choice. B'shaw has a 2 year window of playing given his body.

My "dream" draft scenario;

...

#11. Ball (means we have traded McLean for Ball - I'm happy with that)

...

PSD1. Bradshaw

If Ball does not agree to come to MFC in the PSD then why oh why would we take him at pick 11? Nightmare. Unless B'shaw changes the city he wants to live in then the same applies.

[The Chazz 4,077]

The irony is that Spencer offers more in the ruck contests than Meesen and PJ put together.

Here you go Rhino, some great viewing of this AWESOME ruckman people seem to think we have on our list;

Now, if Spencer was really as good as you think, why didn't they elevate him?

If only I could find the footage of the "kick" he attempted against Carlton late in the season. Remember how he actually dropped the ball just before he was about to kick it?

Gee, if you call that talent, there's a chance of me making it on the list yet.

[45HG 1,539]

Against North and that clip wasn't as impressive as Nev's tackle (and holding the ball) against Sandilands.

Edited November 3, 2009 by 45hotgod16

[hoopla 418]

You need a couple of competitive ruckmen.

As I see it we have quantity - but doubtful quality

- Jamar - clearly our best but only has a one year contract- improved last year but needs to say fit and keep improving

- PJ - useful back-up because of his versatility - but unlikely to be anything more

- Stef - may develop into an excellent No.2 ruckman - but likely to be used elsewhere

- Meeson - very dubious - even in his 4 games last year when he got a bit of the ball - he was brushed aside in the ruck

- Spencer - still very raw

Big men take a long -time to develop. I'd be looking to at least rookie another option this year.

Gawn is a giant - and he is quite agile for his size. I'd try to sneak him in somewhere

I can't comment on Vardy as a possible #18

Edited November 3, 2009 by hoopla

[Maric Legend 0]

Here you go Rhino, some great viewing of this AWESOME ruckman people seem to think we have on our list;

Now, if Spencer was really as good as you think, why didn't they elevate him?

If only I could find the footage of the "kick" he attempted against Carlton late in the season. Remember how he actually dropped the ball just before he was about to kick it?

Gee, if you call that talent, there's a chance of me making it on the list yet.

Don't think anyone rates Spencer as highly as you make out, people just recognise he has potential in the ruck.

Why would they elevate a guy who will not be in the best 22 start of next year and still requires time to develop when the rules let them keep him on the rookie list for another year and prevent us from having to get rid of a guy like Cheney? He can still get a few games next year through mid season break or LTI anyway.

Also, Rhino specifically referred to his ruckwork and not his obviously dubious kicking skills

[sylvinator 96]

For now, I see Jamar as our number 1 ruckman, with Martin as our number 2.

Martin is great, bc in today's modern game you can't afford to have 2 lumbering 10 possession a game ruckman in your side.

Jamar will break even in the tap outs against pretty much every ruckman, giving our smalls pretty good use of the ball. Martin will need to improve his rucking still, but with a bit of work there is no reason why he can't ruck for 5 minutes a quater.

I remember watching Martin at Sandy before he was drafted and he made his name as an awesome athletic ruckman!

The other plus for Martin is that he can plug holes in defence and play up forward as well, meaning we can use him as an extra rotation while he's on the bench.

Spenser and Meesan imo are not competing for Martin's position in the team. Rather, they will be competing against Jamar for the number 1 spot. If either of Spenser or Meesan isn't deemed as good as Jamar, then they will probably be playing for Casey.

We probably need 1 more developing ruckman on the list to replace Jamar who is 27 and probz won't be at the demons for more than another 2 years

[Rogue 585]

Rookie one each year every year.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Here you go Rhino, some great viewing of this AWESOME ruckman people seem to think we have on our list;

Now, if Spencer was really as good as you think, why didn't they elevate him?

If only I could find the footage of the "kick" he attempted against Carlton late in the season. Remember how he actually dropped the ball just before he was about to kick it?

Gee, if you call that talent, there's a chance of me making it on the list yet.

Billy, under the rookie rules, MFC dont have to elevate him in his 3rd year. So the fact they have not elevated him does not infer statement you imply

He is 19 and a project player. He is worth persevering with. Jamar aside, even at this stage he is super competitive and physical at ruck contests and does provide physical support for smaller players in congested situations. For his size he has good mobility and while his kicking style is awkward, its not that bad. IMO he offers far more potential as a ruckman that PJ and Meesen who cannot ruck.

PJ and Meesen's contract expires at the end of 2010, Billy if you are a far better player than a judge of talent then give the Club a call.

[hoopla 418]

He is 19 and a project player. He is worth persevering with. Jamar aside, even at this stage he is super competitive and physical at ruck contests and does provide physical support for smaller players in congested situations. For his size he has good mobility and while his kicking style is awkward, its not that bad. IMO he offers far more potential as a ruckman that PJ and Meesen who cannot ruck.

.

Absolutely correct.... definitely worth persevering with

[hillie 41]

Billy, under the rookie rules, MFC dont have to elevate him in his 3rd year. So the fact they have not elevated him does not infer statement you imply

He is 19 and a project player. He is worth persevering with. Jamar aside, even at this stage he is super competitive and physical at ruck contests and does provide physical support for smaller players in congested situations. For his size he has good mobility and while his kicking style is awkward, its not that bad. IMO he offers far more potential as a ruckman that PJ and Meesen who cannot ruck.

PJ and Meesen's contract expires at the end of 2010, Billy if you are a far better player than a judge of talent then give the Club a call.

i would think the only ruckman we'd be looking at in the draft is vardy as, at this stage, we won't be using pick 34. Rookie drafting one is a different storey. however, if it came down to a choice of butcher, vardy, black or jetta at picks 11 or 18, i would think vardy would be last in line. if the other 3 are gone by our final pick at 18 then i would suggest vardy would be on our list for next year.

[rpfc 28,052]

Billy, under the rookie rules, MFC dont have to elevate him in his 3rd year. So the fact they have not elevated him does not infer statement you imply.

Now this is ironic.

Billy brought up the argument against Spencer that you constantly used against Valenti.

Now the fact that Valenti is gone validates your opinion but not your argument.

I guess it really isn't as straight forward as "if they rated him, they would have put him on the Primary List."

Hmmmm?

[The Chazz 4,077]

Don't think anyone rates Spencer as highly as you make out, people just recognise he has potential in the ruck.

Why would they elevate a guy who will not be in the best 22 start of next year and still requires time to develop when the rules let them keep him on the rookie list for another year and prevent us from having to get rid of a guy like Cheney? He can still get a few games next year through mid season break or LTI anyway.

Also, Rhino specifically referred to his ruckwork and not his obviously dubious kicking skills

I guess I'm still blown away by the fact we didn't chase Mumford. He was Geelong's "project player", who has turned out to be a reasonable ruckman, and is just 23 so wel and truly fits in our premiership/youth window. Would have saved us the 3 years of developing Spencer to find that he'll turn out a dud. The sad part about Spencer is that when we need a great ruckman the most - when our mids are the best in the league in the next 2-3 years, they wont have first crack at centre bounces.

What would I prefer, pay out Newton to free p a spot for Spencer, or put up with both of them? Oh well, I suppose every club has to have a couple of "those" players! Best part is that Newton is OOC next year and 2010 will be make or break for Spencer as he will need to be elevated or let go.

One last thing, I believe I can spot potential or not, but being realistic at the same time. Jurrah, Wonna, Grimes, Watts, Maric, Morton, these blokes have great potential, sadly IMO Spencer doesn't have any. Of course he will develop and may be competitive in a couple of years, but not to the level we need him. Those names that I listed as having potential realistically are only that, POTENTIALLY good players for the club with the odd one potentially being a champion (Grimes, Watts).

[H_T 3,032]

One last thing, I believe I can spot potential or not, but being realistic at the same time. Jurrah, Wonna, Grimes, Watts, Maric, Morton, these blokes have great potential, sadly IMO Spencer doesn't have any. Of course he will develop and may be competitive in a couple of years, but not to the level we need him. Those names that I listed as having potential realistically are only that, POTENTIALLY good players for the club with the odd one potentially being a champion (Grimes, Watts).

What level do we need him to be ?

More than competitive ?

Or the Dean Cox level ?

He is 20yo Billy2803.

And you say Spencer doesn't have any potential. Give the guy a break.

Edited November 4, 2009 by High Tower