I hate to say it but ...

[Guest Rojik of the Arctic]

Don't confuse derision with sage advice. No rationalisation justifies the health damage caused by smoking.

Who cares more about his team? The bloke who wants a few meaningless wins at this stage of the season, or the supporter with the long-term view.

Why advise me? If I had any power over the fate of the team we wouldn't have lost a game for the last 30+ years. I don't need your "sage" advice, especially when it comes with the arrogant rider that you are somehow more of a supporter than I am because I want to see us win games. Moreover, my families lineage with the MFC would make you choke on your weet-bix should you know it, and would make you reconsider such ill thought out remarks about who cares more for the Demons. Not that it makes me somehow better than you, because it doesn't but spare me the "holier than thou" attitude when talking about my feelings on the team.

[Hannabal 4]

In other words, we don't need to follow your prescription to play (or to 'list-manage') to lose every game for the rest of the season. We don't need to hope we play badly. And - thank God! - DB ain't Wallace, so the club isn't going to follow your prescription either. Whether you like it or not, every coach & every player & everyone else in the FD will be playing every game to win.

But FCS, don't take this as a disaster, it will almost certainly end up very similar, whether we get picks 1 & 2, or worst-case-scenario picks 2 & 5. Except that we can forget this stupid panic that unless we tank it will be total disaster. Playing to win will be OK, you might even get to like it.

Your post annoys me, but I accept I'm easily annoyed I started having blues with opposition supporters aged 5 in the 1970's over my crap team. They knew how passionate I was about the Dees and what wins meant to me, so take your patronising remark (which I've kindly bolded) and shove it up your sphincter.

In my post I stated: "The players and Coaches will always try to win on the day, of that I’m certain, but no-one will convince me that it’s in the club’s best interests to win more than 4 matches this year." This comment of mine makes it unnecessary for you to state "Whether you like it or not, every coach & every player & everyone else in the FD will be playing every game to win." I accept my post was long and that your retention skills may well be short. And clearly I've said that I'm happy to win 4, so, just as clearly, I don't have a "prescription to play (or to 'list-manage') to lose every game for the rest of the season." And yes, I do believe that the club will use 'list management strategy' should it find itself in the unlikely situation of being on 4 wins. This may be where we disagree.

Finally, I believe that Trengove or Morabito are clear stand-outs to other potential top 10 players, so yes, I'm very keen to get one of those instead of others you mention. But I note your point. And no, they may not be on BP's top 3 list. But I reckon they just might.

[Jumping Jack Clennett 1,658]

[quote name='Rojik of the Arctic'

Puff away, and barrack hard!

[Akum 2,660]

OK Hannibal, apologies & points taken; didn't mean to offend.

The risk to me is that tanking or list management will leave such a bad smell around the club in general, and around all these professional athletes who represent us on the field. Carlton can take that bad smell, they're used to it after years with Big Jack, and so are Richmond under Wallace, which is why they were in the toilet until he left and took the bad smell with him.

But I don't think we're that sort of club and I'm glad about that. I've always seen us as an honest club that prizes our integrity and abhors that sort of thing. To you and I it's just a "strategy" to use or not to use, but to the players and coaches it's more than just "strategy" because it puts their professionalism on the line. I'm doing my best not to take the high ground, but it's not easy when you're talking about professional sportsmen of any kind.

My point is that we just don't need to compromise our performance, whether by tanking or list management, to get the same result come November. Even if the players try their guts out every game, what is overwhelmingly likely to happen is that we'll get Scully and one other top mid with our first two picks.

If you see list management as the ONLY way to achieve that end, that's OK, I just don't agree. It's your opinion that we stand to lose a premiership by trying to win; it's my opinion that we stand to lose a lot more if we try not to win. It's also obvious that the club's going to do what the club's going to do irrespective of what either of us think.

[Hannabal 4]

But I don't think we're that sort of club and I'm glad about that. I've always seen us as an honest club that prizes our integrity and abhors that sort of thing.

My point is that we just don't need to compromise our performance, whether by tanking or list management, to get the same result come November. Even if the players try their guts out every game, what is overwhelmingly likely to happen is that we'll get Scully and one other top mid with our first two picks.

The bolded comments are another area where we disagree. I suspect that you'll be in the majority and me the minority, but I reckon that this club has been a soft touch for decades. And it shits me no end. Give me a ruthless, or 'no holds barred' mentality, anytime. That said, I also acknowledge that for many years we've been beholden to the AFL for obvious reasons, which means that the 'tough guy' approach I'm advocating hasn't been a realistic option. Norm Smith was a man of integrity, yet ruthless at the same time. Perhaps that's the balance I'm looking for.

As stated, I'm happy to win 4. You see that tally of wins as an Everest we can't reach. My postings on this thread haven't really been concentrating on whether we can or can't, but more the philosophy of what we should do in such an "unlikely" situation.

[do it 4 robbie 1]

Moreover, my families lineage with the MFC would make you choke on your weet-bix should you know it

lol

[Guest Graham Gaunt]

OK Hannibal, apologies & points taken; didn't mean to offend.

The risk to me is that tanking or list management will leave such a bad smell around the club in general, and around all these professional athletes who represent us on the field. Carlton can take that bad smell, they're used to it after years with Big Jack, and so are Richmond under Wallace, which is why they were in the toilet until he left and took the bad smell with him.

But I don't think we're that sort of club and I'm glad about that. I've always seen us as an honest club that prizes our integrity and abhors that sort of thing. To you and I it's just a "strategy" to use or not to use, but to the players and coaches it's more than just "strategy" because it puts their professionalism on the line. I'm doing my best not to take the high ground, but it's not easy when you're talking about professional sportsmen of any kind.

My point is that we just don't need to compromise our performance, whether by tanking or list management, to get the same result come November. Even if the players try their guts out every game, what is overwhelmingly likely to happen is that we'll get Scully and one other top mid with our first two picks.

If you see list management as the ONLY way to achieve that end, that's OK, I just don't agree. It's your opinion that we stand to lose a premiership by trying to win; it's my opinion that we stand to lose a lot more if we try not to win. It's also obvious that the club's going to do what the club's going to do irrespective of what either of us think.

Yet whist the stloen generation have been given the apology, the ghost of Norm Smith is still waiting for one from the MFC. A curse that has yet to be lifted and may last another 45 years.

GG

[Matt Demon 1,389]

Isnt It going to be great next year when we all want the team to win..

[Roost It 1,434]

The risk to me is that tanking or list management will leave such a bad smell around the club in general, and around all these professional athletes who represent us on the field. Carlton can take that bad smell,

The only people who think Carlton have a bad smell are opposition supporters. Do you really think they'll care if they get to hold up the cup. For [censored]'s sake, most of Carlton's premeirships have come this way, including when they had the bulk of the Essendon team conscripted to the army in WW1 and went on to win the premeirship. They are ruthless and play this game to win. It doesn't matter if Melbourne lose all the remaining games, noone will even notice, let alone care. And you know what, these same people won't be surprised if we win 5 games and lose the PP, they'll just laugh at us again and say once again we've blown it. You see if we win we lose and I for one am sick of losing. You can go off and watch us chalk up a few more meaningless wins and walk away with I don't know what but I actually want us to lose. You know why I want us to lose, because for once I want us to WIN.

[Roost It 1,434]

Isnt It going to be great next year when we all want the team to win..

[censored], you got that right, this whole season was shot before it even began

[Its Miller time 6]

If short term wins are all we are concerned about then we should seriously consider trading Watts for Pavlich and Blease for Kirk. Will help us win a couple of more games next year im not sure its a good long term strategy though.

[Grand New Flag 3,227]

The only people who think Carlton have a bad smell are opposition supporters. Do you really think they'll care if they get to hold up the cup. For [censored]'s sake, most of Carlton's premeirships have come this way, including when they had the bulk of the Essendon team conscripted to the army in WW1 and went on to win the premeirship. They are ruthless and play this game to win. It doesn't matter if Melbourne lose all the remaining games, noone will even notice, let alone care. And you know what, these same people won't be surprised if we win 5 games and lose the PP, they'll just laugh at us again and say once again we've blown it. You see if we win we lose and I for one am sick of losing. You can go off and watch us chalk up a few more meaningless wins and walk away with I don't know what but I actually want us to lose. You know why I want us to lose, because for once I want us to WIN.

Roost It and Hannable,

I completely 100% agree with your point of view which is my view too.

Two things are certain:

1: AFL Football is a game about taking your opportunities

2: if we win 5 games we will be the laughing stock of the media, of other clubs, of supporters and the general football community.

Everyone thinks we deserve a PP and everyone expects us to get it. Hell even Scully has excepted that he is going to the MFC. We are after all a very poor team. We have been a terrible, horrible, team for the last 3 years. We have been by far the worst in the comp due to an overdue complete list over hall. The PP was designed for clubs exactly in our position. I want wins and I want a premiership (just one in my life time will do me) and I am smart enough to know that we need everything to go right and to successfully take every opportunity to win that premiership. I don't want to be 1 or 2 "A" list players short of a premiership team when this list matures. I want our club to become successful and wealthy. I want Friday night and Saturday games against big clubs. This comes with success. The more games you win the more members you get and the higher attendances you get both at the game and on TV. This results in higher sponsorship and higher returns, but to get to this point you need to be a top four team for many years, a top team that wins premierships. To become a top team you must be prepared to take short term pain, you must take your recruiting opportunities.

We must get our PP at the cost of.................. playing some kids, trying players in new positions and testing some game plans for a few games with the emphasis being on development rather than winning.

Clubs that are not going to make the finals have done this forever into the end of the season, even when there was no PP up for grabs.

What is the big deal?

Seems like a no brainer. I for one will lose confidence in the off field leaders of our club if they fail to take this opportunity.

Edited July 9, 2009 by Grand New Flag

[rpfc 27,673]

As per the conversation above - if we play Freo on 4 wins I don't think Bailey and Co. will do what HAS to be done, and that Hannabal has faith in the MFC doing - losing against Freo to ensure the PP.

I just hope PA and NM turn up when they play us because we will find it difficult to lose to Richmond and Freo.

[Hannabal 4]

As per the conversation above - if we play Freo on 4 wins I don't think Bailey and Co. will do what HAS to be done, and that Hannabal has faith in the MFC doing - losing against Freo to ensure the PP.

I don't have complete faith that they'll do it. But I can't imagine them not doing it.

Good post GNF.

[Jumping Jack Clennett 1,658]

Robbo is the player who worries me.

He's just the sort to kick 6 and win the game v. Port or North off his own boot.

I'd give Juice a go at full- forward. Posters suggest he's earned promotion.If he struggles as usual, it'll help our cause. If he finally comes good and gains confidence, we've found another weapon!

[Theo 263]

Frank "Bluey" Adams was special guest on SEN last night. At the end of the interview he was asked by Geoff Poulter what MFC need to become a top side. He said " we need two more players in the elite category". No specific types were mentioned.

I love this club and my kids also barrack for them. I want them to see what a premiership feels like because I still remember vividly (as a twelve year old) what it felt like to win the 1964 GF. I can't remember what I did yesterday, but I can remember listening to the GF and crying after Neil Crompton won it for us. Oh! what a great feeling.

I love winning football matches, but I am desperate for MFC to get a priority pick this year. This season is done and dusted so let's set ourselves up for the next 10 years. I'll be shattered if other teams let us win 5 matches because lets face fact Carlton let us win the last game in 2007. How dumb were we.

I think we should play all the new kids i.e Hughes, Valenti, Zomer, Healey, McKenzie and Bail to give them some experience. Add in players with poor disposal such as Bartram and Spencer and hopefully we will achieve two things. Experience for the youngsters (long term planning) and honorable losses.

I just have this awful feeling, that no matter what we do, we will win (or be allowed) to win 5 games. I can feel it in my water.

We need to give away more 50 metre penalties, have interchange violations, have too many players in the centre square, play some injured players and put Bartram at full foward. Tell the players that the point posts are really the goals. Alas, even then we will probably win.

I think I need a beer, a bex and a good lie down. Does anyone know a good psychiatrist.

[BennytheJet 15]

What a time to be a melbourne supporter...

From the day after we play, until the morning of the next game, every part of me hopes that we won't win 5 games thanks to the "perks" of the current draft system.

But as soon as the whistle blows and the game starts, every part of me hopes that we win. Even when we're down by 6 + goals, I still hope of clawing back as per freo game last year.

I know its insurmountably in our favour to not win 5 games, but I still can never watch melbourne in real time and hope that we lose, even if they are close or competitive losses. Can any supporter really, genuinely do that??

[jacey 333]

I think we should play all the new kids i.e Hughes, Valenti, Zomer, Healey, McKenzie and Bail to give them some experience. Add in players with poor disposal such as Bartram and Spencer and hopefully we will achieve two things. Experience for the youngsters (long term planning) and honorable losses.

If we play all those boys over the next 8 weeks, don't expect honorable losses. You can't have it both ways.

Davey looks like his got a runny nose, might need some surgery.

Edited July 9, 2009 by jacey

[e25 5]

What a time to be a melbourne supporter...

From the day after we play, until the morning of the next game, every part of me hopes that we won't win 5 games thanks to the "perks" of the current draft system.

But as soon as the whistle blows and the game starts, every part of me hopes that we win. Even when we're down by 6 + goals, I still hope of clawing back as per freo game last year.

I know its insurmountably in our favour to not win 5 games, but I still can never watch melbourne in real time and hope that we lose, even if they are close or competitive losses. Can any supporter really, genuinely do that??

Its amazing isn't it? The conflicting emotions involved when our club is in this ridiculous position. I remember the game against Brisbane last year - I was away for work and was in my room at the time, watching the game on a little telly opposite my bed, fairly disheartened but consoling myself in the fact that we were shoring up the best possible draft pick.

Then we turned it on and seized the momentum.

I cried like a little girl after that win and I couldn't explain why.

But I was so damn happy.

[TonyMelb 7]

Yet whist the stloen generation have been given the apology, the ghost of Norm Smith is still waiting for one from the MFC. A curse that has yet to be lifted and may last another 45 years.

GG

All too true!!

I am still haunted by then events of Norm's sacking and remember vividly watchin disbelievingly in the stands as an 11 yer old as Norm trudged past the Members on the fatefull Saturday! We all sensed the disaster!

[i just hope PA and NM turn up when they play us because we will find it difficult to lose to Richmond and Freo.]

Part of our risk is that the other bottom clubs dont have many likely wins in the remaining rounds other than MFC! So 5 winds might elevate us to 14th! Absolutely no benefit in winning more than 4 games!

[Davey looks like his got a runny nose, might need some surgery.]

I have heard that Jack Watts' migrene may have been infectious and should affect 1 to 2 players per game from now on. Alternatively, MFC players may continue the aggression from last week and a few more may be reported. IMO MFC should have appealed Sylvia's 3 weeks suspension as it is of much less value for the Pt. A, Geelong and Swans games compared with rounds 18 to 20!

[Hobbits's 17]

All too true!!

I am still haunted by then events of Norm's sacking and remember vividly watchin disbelievingly in the stands as an 11 yer old as Norm trudged past the Members on the fatefull Saturday! We all sensed the disaster!

Maybe this can be on the boards agenda. Get rid of this curse!

I hear about this from time to time. Should it be addressed? Or is it just nonsense?

[biggestred 4,420]

perhaps we should get john saffran to investigate

[Grand New Flag 3,227]

Best way not to win:

Bring in Newton!

If we get to 4 wins before round 22, I would bring Newton in to ensure we don't get that 5th win. We could play him FF, make sure we always kick it to him and then wait for his trusty right boot to kick us point after point from set shots inside 35m or simply watch the ball effortlessly rebounded from lack of forward pressure. These simple misses and easy rebounds will create a negative psyche that will drift through the team, further weakening the side. The Demons of 2009 are only good enough to win when they take their opportunities. Newton is certain to waist our scoring opportunities and therefore this one move would be enough to ensure a loss. At least we know Newton is good for not taking his/our opportunities.

At seasons end I would payout Newton’s contract. No point in keeping him on the list at the cost of a young player with potential. Paying him out would also reward Newton for failing for us (ensuring PP in the draft) and also reward supporters who will no longer have to painfully watch him (especially the ones who also watch Casey). Most importantly paying Newton out would be doing a favour to the man himself. He would never need to embarrass himself on National TV again and at the same time still paid (for one year).

If we do this all involved could end up a winner from what appears to be a no win situation.

Edited July 9, 2009 by Grand New Flag

[Akum 2,660]

As per the conversation above - if we play Freo on 4 wins I don't think Bailey and Co. will do what HAS to be done, and that Hannabal has faith in the MFC doing - losing against Freo to ensure the PP.

I just hope PA and NM turn up when they play us because we will find it difficult to lose to Richmond and Freo.

Understand the sentiment, but look at this:

Next game PA, who are playing for their place in the finals. If they lose to us, they lose their finals chance. They are the other club with a chance of PPs at the start of the year, but they already have 7 wins so they no longer qualify. They will not be tanking.

Then Cats - no way can we win.

Then Sydney, playing for the best position in the finals, but also for their future post-Western Sydney; if they miss the 8 this year, their future looks grim.

Then Tiges followed by Kangas, both playing for their coach's contract next year. Rawlings & Crocker won't be tanking in any way shape or form - they're auditioning to hold onto their jobs next year. If the team they're coaching loses to us, that will ensure that not only do they not coach at their respective clubs, they'll be such a laughing stock as a coach that they won't get a senior job anywhere. These two coaches are playing for their future livelihoods.

Then Freo - our best chance for our third win.

Then Blues - if we are ever to cause an upset for our fourth win, this is the game. They're the one team that's cocky enough to take us too lightly and lose. Would make the whole of the last 3 seasons worthwhile IMO if we beat them and wreck their finals chances. If we do happen to pick up an unexpected win that would devastate any of the clubs that we play before Freo, this will be the one game when we might need to load with our fringe players and "list-manage".

Last game St Kilda - would love to run them close but no chance of winning.

My point is, I don't see how we could possibly be on 4 wins when we meet Freo. If we win 2 games between now and Freo, we will have wrecked finals chances or wrecked coaching careers or both. The other sides we play simply have far too much to lose. I agree it would be a disaster to win 5 (like Freo did last year), but 5 wins is outside the realms of possibility.

What is marginally less impossible than us winning 5 is that we win 4 and end up ahead of WC on percentage if they get trounced in all their remaining games, giving them a pp ahead of us. But they'll pick Morabito or Lewis ahead of Scully & Trengove-or-Rohan, so we'll still get Scully plus another very promising mid.

IMO we're getting worked up about something which is just not going to happen.

Edited July 9, 2009 by Akum

[Jarka 767]

The issue with tanking is a delicate one, perhaps list management is easier to swallow by some.

But one point, any bad feelings that may be caused this year by losing a further six games this year to ensure a priority pick come November will very quickly be forgotten in 2010 when Watts, Blease, Strauss, Jurrah, Scully and Trengove (or whoever we get with our second pick) all take the field.

The excitement generated by this group of kids will vastly outweigh any negativity created this year.