SITTING DOWN

[rpfc 28,476]

I will remind everyone that this conversation at this time last year would have seen the end of Garland and Warnock.

That has to be a sobering thought for a few of you.

And, again, Bate, Meesen, Bruce, and Newton are contracted for next year.

My very early prediction for deletions would look like this: Whelan, Wheatley, Bell, Dunn, and, possibly, one of Jamar and PJ. But not entirely sure about the contract status of either.

And CS (you really should reconsider your name, I might be a PC thug but it is disgusting nevertheless) Jurrah is on the list. No need to elevate.

[Guest hangon007]

plus elevating Spencer and Jurrah permanently I hope.

In - Picks 1, 2, 17, 33, Jurrah, Spencer

What are you talking about Jurrah????

[classy dees 42]

Out -

Delisted

Cameron Bruce

welcome back Y_M! you can never keep a good serial pain in the ass down.

[Mazer Rackham 14,971]

Bailey is doing what he said he would do.

Giving everyone a game to find out who can and who can't play.

At the end of the season there should be no surprises.

Go Bailey! Go Demons!

[Guest Cleveland_Steamer]

welcome back Y_M! you can never keep a good serial pain in the ass down.

Why did you reply to my post?

I dont get it.

[Bobby McKenzie 2,385]

welcome back Y_M! you can never keep a good serial pain in the ass down.

Well spotted 'classy dees'. It has to be YM. How the hell does he do it? Might have a degree in IT.

[Jaded No More 68,949]

Brock McLean was the next Judd according to Jaded and some other posters who got ahead of themselves.

Is this "pick on Jaded" week or something?

Do you have a quote of me saying "Brock McLean is the next Judd?"

A couple of years ago, Brock was statistically up there with Judd in terms of possessions collected against time on ground.

A couple of year ago, pre injuries, everyone here, including the esteemed Rhino, was on Brock's bandwagon.

Brock still is one of the few players in the current team that I've seen stand up in a final and rip it apart. Injuries have absolutely ruined any fluency or continuity that he may have otherwise had, which is an absolute shame.

But for the love of god, stop posting about Brock as if you never believed he could become an elite player. You were onto him just like we all were, the difference is, that you jump on and off bandwagons faster than Freo trade away first round draft picks.

I stand by my opinion of Brock, and I still believe he can become an A grade footballer if his body lets him, because I don't have a short term memory and I know what he's capable of producing when fit (and pace, which is his only shortcoming, is not the be all and end all in football).

When was the last time you actually stuck by your convictions, instead of just following the trends?!

By the way, if you actually believe that Brock's form at the moment has to do with the fact that he bought into all the hype, then I really can't believe I just wasted 2 minutes replying to you. Go back and remind yourself when was the last time he has had an injury-free season, or pre-season for that matter. And we're not talking 2-3 week injuries, we're talking major season-ending injuries.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

I.....

Awful lot of backpedalling around here.

No Jaded. I have been raising questions about whether Brock was or could be elite for some time. He is a good honest player and not the sword bearer some expected. Its a pity that he has not progressed since he was inspirational in the 2006 finals series. Has plateaued since then and not all of it can be slated just to injuries.

He is a worthy part of the team being built for the future. He just isnt the star we had hoped. I still think he would be good as a 4th up midfielder. Its too big an ask to have as the No 1 midfielder week in week out. The biggest risk is that his body packs it in before his time. I hope Scotty West can work some wonders with him.

Glad you can shut your eyes still make excuses for him. Quite a skill that. :D

[Jaded No More 68,949]

Awful lot of backpedalling around here.

No Jaded. I have been raising questions about whether Brock was or could be elite for some time. He is a good honest player and not the sword bearer some expected. Its a pity that he has not progressed since he was inspirational in the 2006 finals series. Has plateaued since then and not all of it can be slated just to injuries.

He is a worthy part of the team being built for the future. He just isnt the star we had hoped. I still think he would be good as a 4th up midfielder. Its too big an ask to have as the No 1 midfielder week in week out. The biggest risk is that his body packs it in before his time. I hope Scotty West can work some wonders with him.

Glad you can shut your eyes still make excuses for him. Quite a skill that. :D

How am I backpedaling?

I have not changed my opinion on Brock for 5 years. You change your mind every 5 minutes.

You really are very brave with your judgments aren't you, questioning someone who has been constantly injured since 2006.

To say that injuries are not a factor is just stupid. That's like saying that Rivers hasn't been affected by injuries.

I remember when Brock came back from his terrible ankle injury and dominated. He also placed very highly in the B&F having played just half a season. We know that when fit he is the best midfielder in the team, which is not to say he is the best midfielder in the competition, or that he does not need help. In fact, he would be a hell of a lot better when surrounded by a gun midfield, and if you think Judd didn't benefit from Kerr or Cousins, or that Ablett would perform as well in Melbourne's midfield, you're kidding yourself.

As I said, I don't jump on and off bandwagons when it suits my argument. Try it sometimes, you might risk not always being right, but at least you'll gain some respect by putting your balls on the line.

Brock McLean, when fit, is in the top 5 best and most important Melbourne players.

Even when he isn't fit, like this year, he is still in the top 5 best performed players, which says a hell of a lot about him as a player.

Now where's the excuse in that?

[mauriesy 7,299]

Brock McLean, when fit, is in the top 5 best and most important Melbourne players.

Even when he isn't fit, like this year, he is still in the top 5 best performed players, which says a hell of a lot about him as a player.

Regardless, to see a guy take a slow run and bounce out of defence, totally unaware he was about to get tackled from behind and turn it over 'holding the ball', is not the hallmark of a top-line midfielder. And it's not the first time.

He might have a top midfielder's engine, but he is slow. At present he is no better than a player like O'Bree who has scorn poured on him for being like treacle.

[Jaded No More 68,949]

Regardless, to see a guy take a slow run and bounce out of defence, totally unaware he was about to get tackled from behind and turn it over 'holding the ball', is not the hallmark of a top-line midfielder. And it's not the first time.

He might have a top midfielder's engine, but he is slow. At present he is no better than a player like O'Bree who has scorn poured on him for being like treacle.

He did know he was about to get run down.

If we're talking about the same contest, it happened right in front of where I sit, and he was in two minds, because he had absolutely nobody to kick it to. His two options were to try and beat his opponent, or cause a certain turnover. In the end, he got rid of the ball as he was getting tackled, and the ball rolled, creating a 50/50 situation. That we lost the contest is another story.

Look, he is definitely struggling for fitness at the moment, and his pace is affected by that, but he has never had awareness issues, so it seems unlikely that all of a sudden he's developed them. Pace is his issue, but in the past it never stopped him from impacting a contest, because his endurance won out. At the moment, he doesn't have that endurance to rely on, so instead of getting faster as the game goes on (as everyone else tires), he gets slower.

He was furious when he came off the ground in the later stages of the game, so clearly there is something wrong. He is trying to play through it, and getting a bit better each week, but maybe he shouldn't. Maybe he needs to fix whatever it is that's wrong... given it is fixable.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

......

You have a habit of hitting the keyboards without reading the other perons post.

While you get apologetic about the injuries. Its now been going on for 3 years (injuries both actual and perceived to suit the point). If the injuries are as bad you say then its not a good sign for a player. I made that point.

I do admire how you talk him up at every breath notwithstanding your hot air has lost track of where his game is at currently. I am glad you see his frustration on the field. I have seen it too. He struggles with No 1 midfielder role. I have no problem with that. He is playing within his physical and football capabilities. Honest but no star. High ranked in MFC's list of promising C graders with the odd B grader. We need to develop stars in the list. I dont think he will be one of them though. But if his body holds out I hope he becomes a solid 200 gamer for us

And as for Judd. He was awesome with WCE surrounded by Benny and Kerr. Still the first tagged but he was awesome. You know what he does not have the elite around him at Carlton and he is still awesome. Says alot doesn't it. And if you watch Ablett carefully. He still get possessions and hurt teams. His skills dont eminate from the deeds of others. But you know that.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Look, he is definitely struggling for fitness at the moment, and his pace is affected by that, but he has never had awareness issues, so it seems unlikely that all of a sudden he's developed them. Pace is his issue, but in the past it never stopped him from impacting a contest, because his endurance won out. At the moment, he doesn't have that endurance to rely on, so instead of getting faster as the game goes on (as everyone else tires), he gets slower.

If there has been a criticism that has stuck on McLean since 2006, its his lack of pace and his awareness at times. Its happened a number of times over the past couple of years. Caught dead slow unaware and red handed. If you were able to take off the glasses then you would be worried also.

His lack of pace is a killer in the midfield and you have to be good to make up for it in other areas. Injuries may affect pace but Jaded McLean is not quick. His examples of complete lack of awareness of traffic and being run down and his inability to throw a tackle raises isssue of awareness and decision making.

I am putting it to you straight Jaded. You are smart enough to see it but you dont want to believe it. You are best not to tee off on those that do and can recognise where a player is truly at. Apologies for the player will only get you so far.

[Jaded No More 68,949]

I won't judge McLean until he is fit.

If he can't get fit, that's another issue.

Until then, glasses or not, I will be sticking by him.

[H_T 3,047]

OBSERVATION:

Regardless, to see a guy take a slow run and bounce out of defence, totally unaware he was about to get tackled from behind and turned it over ....

You describe that instance well.

He did know he was about to get run down.

........

Maybe. But not until the last 'poop-teenth' of a second. The Geelong opponent was just about all over him as he took the bounce. He ambled out of defence at best. He did seem to lack some awareness in that instance.

Just an observation, Jaded.

Fwiw, there is a large percentage who definitely lack awareness at times within the team. So too other clubs. It's the 'A' grade midfielders such as Ablett, Judd, Cooney, Griffen, Bartel who are rather good in this area.

[mo64 5,875]

Fwiw, there is a large percentage who definitely lack awareness at times within the team. So too other clubs. It's the 'A' grade midfielders such as Ablett, Judd, Cooney, Griffen, Bartel who are rather good in this area.

McLean doesn't lack awareness and isn't slow. He and Jones both struggle with our gameplan, because we have very few options forward of the ball, and they're are the ones who are made to look slow and lack awareness because they are trying to find the right option. The instincts and natural game of both players is to look up and kick the ball, not handball sideways or backwards. They don't have the evasive skills of a Judd or Ablett.

As I've said all along, the gameplan doesn't suit the natural instincts of our key midfielders.

[rpfc 28,476]

McLean doesn't lack awareness and isn't slow. He and Jones both struggle with our gameplan, because we have very few options forward of the ball, and they're are the ones who are made to look slow and lack awareness because they are trying to find the right option. The instincts and natural game of both players is to look up and kick the ball, not handball sideways or backwards. They don't have the evasive skills of a Judd or Ablett.

As I've said all along, the gameplan doesn't suit the natural instincts of our key midfielders.

Therefore you must change the gameplan.

No, you don't.

Bailey should run the program that he knows - that he was hired on. He has time to build a list to perform his gameplan well, and those here can adapt. Moloney has, and Jones and McLean are getting better.

For those who cannot adapt, we wish a fond farewell.

You may say that an altered gameplan would give us some improvement, some modicum of success, I would say that that minor improvement is pointless.

Or perhaps it's very pointed; it could be the difference between 4 wins and 5 wins.

And we all know what that means...

[beelzebub 23,378]

Therefore you must change the gameplan.

No, you don't.

Bailey should run the program that he knows - that he was hired on. He has time to build a list to perform his gameplan well, and those here can adapt. Moloney has, and Jones and McLean are getting better.

For those who cannot adapt, we wish a fond farewell.

You may say that an altered gameplan would give us some improvement, some modicum of success, I would say that that minor improvement is pointless.

Or perhaps it's very pointed; it could be the difference between 4 wins and 5 wins.

And we all know what that means...

I applaud your stance. I take it you're prepared to say that it, adieu , adios, cya later to anyone who doesnt cope and adapt ? As this is my view.

You create the est design and then source the materials to build it...as opposed to dodgy bros who will look around at whats at hand and throw something together. This is where MFC has fallen down over the years. Now, NOW we have a more methodical and deliberate plan. It will take patience and application .

If the piece doesnt quite fit the hole and cant be honed to shape then you get more and different bits. This is exactly the path taken by Hawthorn and other premiership winning teams. There will indeed be much of the talent required on our list.. and much of it is raw. We also still have squarish pegs that will need to be traded/delisted etc.

Its about the team, not individuals !!

[MadAsHell 4,212]

Now not that I think these players are dead wood but what will happen with Matthew Whelan and Paul Wheatley this year?

At the start of the year I would of had them in our starting 18 for sure however with the emergence of players like Frawley and Bennell will there be a spot for them when they are fit? Further more with both of them nearing 30 is there still a future for them at our club or are they on the dead wood list?

[beelzebub 23,378]

Now not that I think these players are dead wood but what will happen with Matthew Whelan and Paul Wheatley this year?

At the start of the year I would of had them in our starting 18 for sure however with the emergence of players like Frawley and Bennell will there be a spot for them when they are fit? Further more with both of them nearing 30 is there still a future for them at our club or are they on the dead wood list?

well if not dead wood,...close to dead in the water ..or heading that way..welll, in the case of Wheels. Matt is out of contract at seasons end. The likelyhood of any extension is probably low what with the kids coming through and the probability of other and aggrevated injuries reocccurring it would probably be prudent to thank Wheels and wish him well. Many are saddened by these instances but its just part of football etc.

Wheats has a few more years in him and him booming kick and pace might be handy for a season or two more. But it will definitley depend on how Bails & co see his role unfolding

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

I'm going to resist the temptation to write something about every point. Done that enough over the years, and my net here is 'spensive...

Your last paragraph summed it up. It REALLY bothers me when, just because you have faith in some of your younger players (in the list as it is) you're labelled, by know-it-alls like you, as "accepting of mediocrity." And that's laughable. You know better than that Rhino. Truth be told, if I kept ONLY the players that are perfect in my eyes, the list would be down to about 3 guys. The vast majority of league footballers have weaknesses. In some cases they play around them, in some cases (where possible) they fix them...

We carry on and on at our younger guys to SHOW SOMETHING!! week in week out, and yet when we have players like PJ, Bate, Bell and Dunn who have at times in their careers shown something, we jump on their backs the MINUTE they lose a bit of touch and confidence. God forbid these 21 yr olds shouldn't be perfect, eh?

I see a handful of guys on the list who have shown almost nothing, like you say, with a lot more time. Bell and PJ both warranted faith. Bell, a couple of seasons ago, had an awesome year, and was loved by MANY on the site. At the start of this year he was putting it together again, and looked like he might find some of his mojo again. His INJURY is what will end his career, as he won't have the chance to get fit again and re-establish himself. With PJ, you're flat out insane RR if you want to drop a tall ruckman, who can run and kick, and who hasn't even cracked 25 yet... ESPECIALLY one who showed a lot at the end of a season that finished less than 12 months ago. 7 years in the AFL isn't enough for ruckmen... We know this, and somehow you ignore it. Oh... and how the hell are we supposed to respect the fact that you claim Jamar has shown more than PJ? On what planet? I doubt Jamar has cracked more than 15 possessions before... And don't start me on this tap-malarkey. He taps it down the throats of opposition as often as team-mates... Ruckmen these days are needed less and less for their ability at centre bounces, and more for their work as an extra tall. PJ has shown form up both ends of the ground within the last 12 months, and has aquitted himself well (though not so much this year).

Don't give me this "accepting of mediocrity." I'm FAR more of a realist than you in that I know that the footy department knows more about the game than I do, and they will be keeping the players you mention (or at least they won't let them go without getting something good for them). You see, unilke you RR, they don't have the luxury of being able to have a different whipping boy every month, just to make themselves feel better.

[CarnTheDees 52]

Reading through RR's bulldozing of everyone's opinions about the current Melbourne list, it is plainly obvious that every MFC listed player should be delisted at season's end (its criminal that they weren't 2 years ago frankly, and its not worth trading any of them because they're all worthless). That way we would be guaranteed of getting a better team next year. <_<

[beelzebub 23,378]

Some of these ..keep them /cull them decisions have to by requirements be ooked upon by category. With respect to the rucking we have essentially 4. Jamar, Johnson, Meesen and Spencer

It might make more sense longer term to reduce that to three for now and lokto score and develop another to follow and team up with Spencer at some stage. In that light with much surprise I think that Meesen might have actually got himslef across the line for now. Hes not brilliant, but is surprising many ( myself included ) and could prove handy even if not demostrably match winning. Keeping Spencer is a given I would have thought.

SO its a choice between Russian and Johnson. ..not a hard one really in that PJ is a much better all rounder with more dimension to his play.

That means its essentially sayonara baby to Jamar.

Theres 1.. only need 3 or so more to find. Wheels as mentioned is a likely candidate too.. So its now 2 ( or so ) to find. Doubt all rookies to be kept. So we'll say at least one from here only leaves one more.

So the trimming of numbers isnt really all that hard

[MadAsHell 4,212]

In a shallow draft, we will definitely use picks 1,2, 17 and 33. (Assuming we win 4 or less games)

After that the talent pool will be shallow.

So we will need to get rid of 4 players, plus elevating Spencer and Jurrah permanently I hope.

In this scenario-

In - Picks 1, 2, 17, 33, Jurrah, Spencer

Out -

Delisted

Daniel Bell

Cameron Bruce

Mark Jamar

Retired

James McDonald

Russell Robertson

Matthew Whelan

Firstly it is my understanding that Jurrah is already on our senior list so we wouldn't need to promote him, although Valentti may very well be promoted so you are right about having two rookies added to our senior list (Valentti/Spencer).

As Belzebub59 said Bruce is contracted so he wont be delisted till the end of 2010 at earliest.

Will McDonald retire after only one season as captain? I'd suspect he may go on one more year but that will be a decision for Bailey and co so you may be right there?

As for Robbo I think he showed on sunday he's far from done yet. Again I'd think he'll be around for next year also at least.

I do suspect however you may be right about Whelan sadly. And I definatly agree with you over Bell and Jamar and maybe even add Wheatley? Also throw in Sylvia and Dunn as trade bait?

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Reading through RR's bulldozing of everyone's opinions about the current Melbourne list, it is plainly obvious that every MFC listed player should be delisted at season's end (its criminal that they weren't 2 years ago frankly, and its not worth trading any of them because they're all worthless). That way we would be guaranteed of getting a better team next year. <_<

As you have previously shown you dont read other poster comments while contributing little of value yourself.

Thanks for confirming your ignorance.