Key Defensive Pillars

[Demonland 65,486]

[Lucifers Hero 37,133]

The story that goes with the tweet:  http://www.melbournefc.com.au/news/2018-05-18/key-defensive-pillars-continue-to-build

A simple membership of Oscars progress:  “He’s probably gone from being a guy who halves contests to actually winning some now, so we’ve been really pleased with his progression...

...He’s had a fantastic year, but the challenge for him is to maintain it for the whole season and really start to put himself among the top defenders in the league.”

Oscar isn't (yet) up with the top defenders like Talia, Hearn, Hurley, Rance but I reckon by the time he reaches their level of experience and age he will right up there.  I just hope it is with us.

[Demonland 65,486]

I'll personally wash the McDonald brother's cars each week if it will keep them both at the Dees. ??

[binman 38,462]

1 hour ago, Demonland said:

I'll personally wash the McDonald brother's cars each week if it will keep them both at the Dees. ??

I have been washing Oscar's since he first joined the club.

[Vogon Poetry 2,095]

3 hours ago, binman said:

I have been washing Oscar's since he first joined the club.

You'd have been washing it everyday with the mud Jnrmac and STMJ were throwing.

 

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

Happy to post and admit that Oscar is clearly playing really good football this year. I genuinely didn't think that he was capable of some of the intercept marking I've seen so far this season.

So clearly I was wrong about the 'lack of potential' I saw. But in my defence, he was playing to a level that was far from AFL level last year. I stand by that observation. I understand the club sacrificed team performance by playing him when he was clearly not ready.

Oscar is now heading in a positive direction and if he keeps up the intercept work, he could shock me even more.

Well done to the juvenile Giraffe.

Edited May 18, 2018 by stevethemanjordan

[dworship 3,342]

15 minutes ago, stevethemanjordan said:

Happy to post and admit that Oscar is clearly playing really good football this year. I genuinely didn't think that he was capable of some of the intercept marking I've seen so far this season.

So clearly I was wrong about the 'lack of potential' I saw. But in my defence, he was playing to a level that was far from AFL level last year. I stand by that observation. I understand the club sacrificed team performance by playing him when he was clearly not ready. 

Oscar is now heading in a positive direction and if he keeps up the intercept work, he could shock me even more.

Well done to the juvenile Giraffe.

So, clearly the coaches have a better idea of how to develop, support the players and improve the team than some vitriolic posters on Demonland.  Nice "defence". Fessing up to being a [insert adjective here] isn't really a defence.

Edited May 18, 2018 by dworship
censorship

[DV8 2,271]

7 hours ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

The story that goes with the tweet:  http://www.melbournefc.com.au/news/2018-05-18/key-defensive-pillars-continue-to-build

A simple membership of Oscars progress:  “He’s probably gone from being a guy who halves contests to actually winning some now, so we’ve been really pleased with his progression...

...He’s had a fantastic year, but the challenge for him is to maintain it for the whole season and really start to put himself among the top defenders in the league.”

Oscar isn't (yet) up with the top defenders like Talia, Hearn, Hurley, Rance but I reckon by the time he reaches their level of experience and age he will right up there.  I just hope it is with us.

I reckon when Oscar arrives at those players levels,  will be the time-frame of our next Silverware arrivals.

[Engorged Onion 9,345]

46 minutes ago, stevethemanjordan said:

Happy to post and admit that Oscar is clearly playing really good football this year. I genuinely didn't think that he was capable of some of the intercept marking I've seen so far this season.

So clearly I was wrong about the 'lack of potential' I saw. But in my defence, he was playing to a level that was far from AFL level last year. I stand by that observation. I understand the club sacrificed team performance by playing him when he was clearly not ready.

Oscar is now heading in a positive direction and if he keeps up the intercept work, he could shock me even more.

Well done to the juvenile Giraffe.

By that statement Stevo, do you hold the coaching staff (and by proxy) him personally accountable for the 0.5%?

Edited May 18, 2018 by Danelska

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

13 minutes ago, Danelska said:

By that statement Stevo, do you hold the coaching staff (and by proxy) him personally accountable for the 0.5%?

Haha. Yes... 

(No).

I do wonder why we didn’t opt for a stop gap key defender when there were plenty out there and let Oscar develop at VFL last year. I don’t wish to bore ppl with that though. What’s done is done. 

He is performing now, and that’s all that matters I guess. 

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

54 minutes ago, dworship said:

So, clearly the coaches have a better idea of how to develop, support the players and improve the team than some vitriolic posters on Demonland.  Nice "defence". Fessing up to being a [insert adjective here] isn't really a defence.

 

I had every right to complain about his form last year. I wasn’t the only one. 

The MFC chose to go into 2017 with an obvious lack of key position players both talent-wise and depth. Oscar was therefor gifted games with an eye for the long term. I didn’t agree with it because it contributed to our poor performances defensively.

Clearly he is much improved this year. 

It doesn’t bother me that you’re offended by my posts. It’s a forum for supporters. And as a supporter I have the right to question all decisions made by the club, whether they’re right or wrong. 

 

[Engorged Onion 9,345]

24 minutes ago, stevethemanjordan said:

Haha. Yes... 

(No).

I do wonder why we didn’t opt for a stop gap key defender when there were plenty out there and let Oscar develop at VFL last year. I don’t wish to bore ppl with that though. What’s done is done. 

He is performing now, and that’s all that matters I guess. 

It's a really interesting point @stevethemanjordan. Why would some football departments choose to develop some players in the VFL vs some in the AFL. What are the factors that govern this decision making? I don't know, perhaps some enlightened individuals can shed some light on this?

[red&blue1982 252]

Now that T Mac's a forward we have to settle for O Mac as one of our pillars. Lever another. I wonder if Weid's would be useful down there from time to time, or Ped's. Hopefully we get pillars, for now it's hope that the ones we have keep improving.

In my opinion our small and medium defenders are more solid. Hibberd, Lewis, Vince, Jetta.

[binman 38,462]

Sorry cannot let these comments go unchallenged:

'But in my defence, he was playing to a level that was far from AFL level last year. I stand by that observation. I understand the club sacrificed team performance by playing him when he was clearly not ready.' 

'Oscar was therefor gifted games with an eye for the long term. I didn’t agree with it because it contributed to our poor performances defensively.'

'I do wonder why we didn’t opt for a stop gap key defender when there were plenty out there and let Oscar develop at VFL last year.'

All three comments are embarrassing rubbish. Playing at a level far from AFL level last year? Ridiculous (and really a repetition of the silly assertion he was not AFL standard).

Why do you think an AFL club with professional coaching and recruiting teams didn't recruit 'a stop gap key defender when there were plenty out there'? Because they obviously decided they didn't need to as they had complete confidence in Oscar. I repeat. They are paid professionals whose job is to make such assessments. And you wonder why they didn't agree with your assessment? I don't.  I could see what they could see. I pointed it out to you on numerous occasions. I

You made the silly assertion last year that chasing  Lever was evidence of the weakness of Oscar. Baloney. It is telling they didn't go after another key back last trad period, particularly given they decised to Tmac was going to be a full time forward.  They didn't need to. They had Oscar. One really good KPD is enough.

Sacrificed team performance when he clearly was not ready? In a team pushing for finals? Right. Such was the confidence they had in Oscar last year they released his brother to go forward. 

Gifted games? You have to be joking. Maybe in 2016 they got some games into him for experience. Like they did last year witht Weeds. The difference is that once it was obvious Weed wasn't ready they sent him back to the VFL. Yet they kept Oscar in the side. Go figure. But games for the sake of experience last year no way. So, so silly to suggest that. Again. We were pushing for finals. As if a professional football club does that, particularly  one playing in such a critical position. 

STMJ you are the one who said you do scouting for AFL clubs. If that is actually true then in all honesty i am incredulous you could make such comments. In fact repeat such comment after making them for the last 3 years.

An AFL football team selects a player as 20 year and he plays 45 of the next 47 odd games possible games (and only getting dropped once), in one of most demanding positions in the game, and you think he is not AFL standard until like magic he suddenly is this year. Fair dinkum you have to be trolling (and playing the long game at that). 

I said before the start of this season that i was hoping to not have to read rubbish like these comments when the inevitable happened and Oscar went up a level and his ability becasme obvious even to the most trenchant critics.  But i knew that i would. And now i have. 

To be frank, suggestions he didn't earn his games last year and the 'club sacrificed team performance by playing him when he was clearly not ready' are plain insulting to Oscar, not to mention patently wrong, and i cannot stand fans insulting their own players.

And to be 100% clear not once have i ever said Oscar will be star. Just that he will be a strong AFL player who all things being equal will be a 200+ game player for the dees. The most extravagant i have been is that he will be better than his brother. Which i stand by (and heard second hand last year that some at the club firmly believe that too).

You have been wrong all along with Oscar STMJ, despite what you believe. Facts are facts. Perhaps you might consider showing some humility and acknowledging you got it wrong rather than damning the young fella with faint praise and weasel words. 

[WERRIDEE 5,218]

8 minutes ago, binman said:

STMJ you are the one who said you do scouting for AFL clubs. 

It would have to be for the bottom 4 clubs wouldn't it be?

[Dante 2,562]

My issue with this is that it’s ok to criticise a player, but running a monotonous campaign is boring. You form an opinion, you let everyone know what it and leave it at that, it’s ok to throw a few punches every now and then, if it gets worse, but to harp on and on about it is just tedious. 

We are seeing the same now with Tyson and Weideman, ok you don’t think Tyson can kick and you don’t think Weid can play, ok, opinion noted. 

Maybe there’s a player that’s doing everything right, let’s talk about him for a while. 

 

 

[Dante 2,562]

29 minutes ago, WERRIDEE said:

It would have to be for the bottom 4 clubs wouldn't it be?

Hopefully it’s Collingwood.  

[dworship 3,342]

18 hours ago, binman said:

Sorry cannot let these comments go unchallenged:

'But in my defence, he was playing to a level that was far from AFL level last year. I stand by that observation. I understand the club sacrificed team performance by playing him when he was clearly not ready.' 

'Oscar was therefor gifted games with an eye for the long term. I didn’t agree with it because it contributed to our poor performances defensively.'

'I do wonder why we didn’t opt for a stop gap key defender when there were plenty out there and let Oscar develop at VFL last year.'

All three comments are embarrassing rubbish. Playing at a level far from AFL level last year? Ridiculous (and really a repetition of the silly assertion he was not AFL standard).

Why do you think an AFL club with professional coaching and recruiting teams didn't recruit 'a stop gap key defender when there were plenty out there'? Because they obviously decided they didn't need to as they had complete confidence in Oscar. I repeat. They are paid professionals whose job is to make such assessments. And you wonder why they didn't agree with your assessment? I don't.  I could see what they could see. I pointed it out to you on numerous occasions. I

You made the silly assertion last year that chasing  Lever was evidence of the weakness of Oscar. Baloney. It is telling they didn't go after another key back last trad period, particularly given they decised to Tmac was going to be a full time forward.  They didn't need to. They had Oscar. One really good KPD is enough.

Sacrificed team performance when he clearly was not ready? In a team pushing for finals? Right. Such was the confidence they had in Oscar last year they released his brother to go forward. 

Gifted games? You have to be joking. Maybe in 2016 they got some games into him for experience. Like they did last year witht Weeds. The difference is that once it was obvious Weed wasn't ready they sent him back to the VFL. Yet they kept Oscar in the side. Go figure. But games for the sake of experience last year no way. So, so silly to suggest that. Again. We were pushing for finals. As if a professional football club does that, particularly  one playing in such a critical position. 

STMJ you are the one who said you do scouting for AFL clubs. If that is actually true then in all honesty i am incredulous you could make such comments. In fact repeat such comment after making them for the last 3 years.

An AFL football team selects a player as 20 year and he plays 45 of the next 47 odd games possible games (and only getting dropped once), in one of most demanding positions in the game, and you think he is not AFL standard until like magic he suddenly is this year. Fair dinkum you have to be trolling (and playing the long game at that). 

I said before the start of this season that i was hoping to not have to read rubbish like these comments when the inevitable happened and Oscar went up a level and his ability becasme obvious even to the most trenchant critics.  But i knew that i would. And now i have. 

To be frank, suggestions he didn't earn his games last year and the 'club sacrificed team performance by playing him when he was clearly not ready' are plain insulting to Oscar, not to mention patently wrong, and i cannot stand fans insulting their own players.

And to be 100% clear not once have i ever said Oscar will be star. Just that he will be a strong AFL player who all things being equal will be a 200+ game player for the dees. The most extravagant i have been is that he will be better than his brother. Which i stand by (and heard second hand last year that some at the club firmly believe that too).

You have been wrong all along with Oscar STMJ, despite what you believe. Facts are facts. Perhaps you might consider showing some humility and acknowledging you got it wrong rather than damning the young fella with faint praise and weasel words. 

Thanks Binman, that encapsulated everything that gave rise to my original post and I must give a shout out to the Mod who reversed the censorship approach. I think everyone has aired their rightful opinion in a reasonable manner.

[dimmy 1,114]

On 5/19/2018 at 12:01 AM, Dante said:

My issue with this is that it’s ok to criticise a player, but running a monotonous campaign is boring. You form an opinion, you let everyone know what it and leave it at that, it’s ok to throw a few punches every now and then, if it gets worse, but to harp on and on about it is just tedious. 

We are seeing the same now with Tyson and Weideman, ok you don’t think Tyson can kick and you don’t think Weid can play, ok, opinion noted. 

Maybe there’s a player that’s doing everything right, let’s talk about him for a while. 

 

 

Agree wholeheartedly. Admittedly everyone has a right to express a view but the way some campaigns have been waged against some "Whipping Boys" e.g. Watts, TMac,  Omac, Lewis, Tyson , Nathan Jones (yes early on the knives were out) does not really bring much credit to the discussion of what is our favourite team. The players are human.

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

@binman

Quite a long-winded post.

I think the main difference of opinion comes from an emotional standpoint. It sounds like you are quite offended with some of my commentary which is why you can't seem to let this go. That's okay, but I'm not going to apologise for my frustration at some of Oscar's performances last year.

I've mentioned it so many times before, but I wanted the club to bring in a mature-aged player to play key position and allow Oscar to develop at VFL level. They decided not to and I'm of the opinion that he was thrown to the wolves last year and was clearly not ready. I'm not alone with that view and I'm also not the only one who thought our key defensive stocks were ordinary last year. We leaked many goals with Oscar and Frost both contributing to it.

You disagree with that, that's fine. 

His improvement and growth this year has been enormous simply because of the low base he was coming from. 

What I've said is that I'm happy to admit is that I was wrong about some attributes that I simply didn't see him possessing. This year, he's actually had games where he has won contests. Some of those contests coming from contested intercept marks. The Hawthorn game comes to mind as one. 

Against Carlton, he wasn't as strong as he's been. Hopefully he keeps up his consistency in performance. 

I'm not going to respond after this, so I suggest you pm me if you're still unhappy. 

Edited May 21, 2018 by stevethemanjordan

[Vogon Poetry 2,095]

1 hour ago, stevethemanjordan said:

@binman

 

I'm not going to respond after this, so I suggest you pm me if you're still unhappy. 

 

 

I don't think anyone minded you having an opinion Steve, that's what Demonland is about, but what I minded was the fact that anyone with a differing opinion was ridiculed by you and others.  Not only that but you made the same point ad nauseum beating your chest at every opportunity.  Further you ignored or denied Oscar's successes and highlighted his failures and your comments were completely unbalanced. You're doing the same with Tyson now and it's pretty pathetic especially given your misjudgement with Oscar.

I like your posts usually.  They provide contrast and are well expressed.  But you nailed your reputation to the mast with your crusade against Oscar and it's almost irreparably damaged.  Footy is an opinion business and if you are associated with another club then you'd know this.  And if you know this your crusade against Oscar just made you look like a jerk.  

 

[Chook 14,570]

McDonalds have a habit of scaring me in the Defensive 50. I'm 0/2 on that regard now (one will never be a defender again, and the other has bested his brother as a defender in just his 5th season).

[Binmans PA 26,227]

On 5/18/2018 at 11:19 PM, binman said:

Sorry cannot let these comments go unchallenged:

'But in my defence, he was playing to a level that was far from AFL level last year. I stand by that observation. I understand the club sacrificed team performance by playing him when he was clearly not ready.' 

'Oscar was therefor gifted games with an eye for the long term. I didn’t agree with it because it contributed to our poor performances defensively.'

'I do wonder why we didn’t opt for a stop gap key defender when there were plenty out there and let Oscar develop at VFL last year.'

All three comments are embarrassing rubbish. Playing at a level far from AFL level last year? Ridiculous (and really a repetition of the silly assertion he was not AFL standard).

Why do you think an AFL club with professional coaching and recruiting teams didn't recruit 'a stop gap key defender when there were plenty out there'? Because they obviously decided they didn't need to as they had complete confidence in Oscar. I repeat. They are paid professionals whose job is to make such assessments. And you wonder why they didn't agree with your assessment? I don't.  I could see what they could see. I pointed it out to you on numerous occasions. I

You made the silly assertion last year that chasing  Lever was evidence of the weakness of Oscar. Baloney. It is telling they didn't go after another key back last trad period, particularly given they decised to Tmac was going to be a full time forward.  They didn't need to. They had Oscar. One really good KPD is enough.

Sacrificed team performance when he clearly was not ready? In a team pushing for finals? Right. Such was the confidence they had in Oscar last year they released his brother to go forward. 

Gifted games? You have to be joking. Maybe in 2016 they got some games into him for experience. Like they did last year witht Weeds. The difference is that once it was obvious Weed wasn't ready they sent him back to the VFL. Yet they kept Oscar in the side. Go figure. But games for the sake of experience last year no way. So, so silly to suggest that. Again. We were pushing for finals. As if a professional football club does that, particularly  one playing in such a critical position. 

STMJ you are the one who said you do scouting for AFL clubs. If that is actually true then in all honesty i am incredulous you could make such comments. In fact repeat such comment after making them for the last 3 years.

An AFL football team selects a player as 20 year and he plays 45 of the next 47 odd games possible games (and only getting dropped once), in one of most demanding positions in the game, and you think he is not AFL standard until like magic he suddenly is this year. Fair dinkum you have to be trolling (and playing the long game at that). 

I said before the start of this season that i was hoping to not have to read rubbish like these comments when the inevitable happened and Oscar went up a level and his ability becasme obvious even to the most trenchant critics.  But i knew that i would. And now i have. 

To be frank, suggestions he didn't earn his games last year and the 'club sacrificed team performance by playing him when he was clearly not ready' are plain insulting to Oscar, not to mention patently wrong, and i cannot stand fans insulting their own players.

And to be 100% clear not once have i ever said Oscar will be star. Just that he will be a strong AFL player who all things being equal will be a 200+ game player for the dees. The most extravagant i have been is that he will be better than his brother. Which i stand by (and heard second hand last year that some at the club firmly believe that too).

You have been wrong all along with Oscar STMJ, despite what you believe. Facts are facts. Perhaps you might consider showing some humility and acknowledging you got it wrong rather than damning the young fella with faint praise and weasel words. 

I'm surprised to be honest. If Steve is an AFL scout, he put his neck on the line in a pretty overt way and it backfired. 

I generally like your posts, Steve and props for partially admitting you were wrong, but it has to be said that I wouldn't be employing you if you really view KPPs in the way you did with Oscar.

Most switched on footy observers know that KPPs take longer. It was clear that Oscar had some tools and traits that would eventually prove damaging with a more developed frame. In the meantime, it was clear the FD saw game day development as the quickest way forward. And that has been vindicated.

To be kind, we all have different views and if everyone thought the same way, we would have drafted Fyfe, Sloane etc.

Edited May 21, 2018 by A F

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

I didn't want Oscar playing in our back line last year. And I stand by my point, being that if we were a club that had key position backline depth and experience last year, he would have been developing at VFL level given his level of output. In my view, that's the reality of the situation. We risked not bringing in anyone in the hope that he'd develop.

Yeh, maybe I was on his case a lot throughout last season and some posters found it offensive, repetitive and boring. But it's a football forum and I'm not here to be polite, toe the company line or make friends at every opportunity. There are plenty of those type of posters here.

It can be argued that we'd have been better off bringing in a mature age key defender last year which would not only have limited opposition scoring opportunities and provided confidence in our other defenxers, but would have allowed Oscar to develop at VFL. (Something I've said 90,000 times). I'm not the only one that holds this view. Perhaps we could have made the finals with a change like that. Who knows? 

What I couldn't foresee and was clearly wrong about is where Oscar's improvement was going to come from. I'd said that I couldn't see a single outstanding trait that he possessesed last year. This year, we've at least seen that he does possess the ability to take strong intercept marks. Doing it on a few occasions in games. I understand part of being a successful scout is about being able to identify these things. Whether or not my views on Oscar diminish my ability to scout is questionable. Last year he was not performing, they're the facts. I'm not at the club and don't see him every day, so obviously my insight is hindered somewhat. 

He is progressing and showing good signs, let's agree on that. 

 

[Binmans PA 26,227]

I think you've shifted the goal posts here, Steve, with a bit of revisionism.

You made it very clear that you felt Oscar wouldn't make it. He has and will.

Edited May 22, 2018 by A F