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I've read all of your opinions and I still say reverse cowgirl.

I think he will need to show some real improvement at Casey this year to hold his place. He doesn't have to star but just step up.

sorry dazzle. i thought i had put it behind me but vaggy (unintentionally) reopened the wound i'll try harder but it's not easy

PR,will drag the older ruckman through the season and when he needs it will "trade" for an experienced one. How to run a ruck division in modern footy by PR.

On the subject of centre half forwards and key forwards generally, I found this quote interesting ~ Riewoldt a perfect role model for Saint Paddy So there you have it. Petracca was the consensus best player in the draft (I believe even Alan Richardson said so at one stage), but the argument to take McCartin was compelling for the Saints. They chose him partly on needs because they know Riewoldt's time is nearing an end and the Lance Franklin and Tom Boyd transfers demonstrated the inflationary market for key forwards. For them, better an outstanding young KPP than the best player available, even if that player could be of the elite of the new generation of players, a potential Michael Jordan. Which brings to mind the story of the Portland Trail Blazers who drafted Sam Bowie (who?) over Jordan. The lesson? Even the most successful people make mistakes - heaven knows that the MFC have made far more than their share in recent times.

Stop derailing the thread by posting what we were all thinking but dare not say.

I was under the impression that they werent able to train with their club while suspended... as they currently are. So all bans if they were to occur would begin when they stop training?

Don't know much about Turkish wrestlers but thanks to that classic movie Borat: Cultural Learnings of America for Make Benefit Glorious Nation of Kazakhstan, I am aware of potential issues with Kazakh wrestlers' jockstraps -

Go and re-watch our 2 Port Adel games last year.4 of the classiest goals you'll see from a midfielder, and I'm pretty sure he snagged 6 Brownlow votes from the 2 games. I'm going to make a bold prediction that he'll be the best out of his former GWS midfield vintage of Treloar, Shiel, Coniglio and Greene.

Maybe to clarify, the previous post said that the AFL tribunal would not be influenced by outside forces because it had distinguished people sitting on it including a retired County Court Judge. I beg to differ. In my view there is a huge difference between the AFL Tribunal, the body set up by the AFL to adjudicate on internal AFL rules and agreements with external parties such as ASADA, and the Federal Court of Australia of which Justice Middleton is a distinguished member. The AFL appoints the Tribunal's members, some of whom may be lawyers, even judges, but mostly they are ex footballers, albeit often very distinguished ones. They do not necessarily have a legal background. Australian Courts are set up by government to enforce the laws of the land whether they be by legislation enacted by democratically elected Federal and State Governments, or through British Common Law. They are presided over by judges who are drawn from the elite of the legal profession, and are appointed only after many years distinguished service usually at the Bar, and such appointments are regarded by lawyers as the pinnacle of their profession. They are some of the brightest and most distinguished people in the country. Justice Middleton was acting under such a body in the Essendon case, on the basis that the decision taken by various bodies against them, particularly Hird, potentially broke the law of the land. It was not essentially a football matter. The rules of ASADA/WADA dictate that any infraction of their rules on drug taking are first heard by the sporting tribunal set up by the governing body of the relevant sport in which the infraction has occurred to enforce their rules and any international rules they sign up to via voluntary agreement (eg WADA). These decisions can be appealed by any party to the decision, and WADA has the power to appeal any decision with which it disagrees to CAS, and often does, mostly successfully. Under this arrangement the AFL Tribunal is currently adjudicating on the infraction notices issued to the 34 current and ex EFC footballers by ASADA under their rules to which the AFL and all AFL clubs have voluntarily signed up to. No one though should pretend it is a court of law, because it isn't, and therefore is far more likely to be subject to interference from outside forces. This is precisely why WADA has the ultimate sanction and last right of appeal to ensure the local forces do not interfere with the decisions of local tribunals. Ironically it was written into WADA rules because it was regarded as likely that so called "third world" sporting tribunals would be likely to be corrupted by local officials. As it turned out, the biggest scandal has occurred in first world Australia, and we are all fortunate that these rules are in place to ensure morally corrupt individuals like James Hird do not get away with their appalling behaviour. Now does anyone else seriously suggest that decisions by the AFL tribunal are equivalent in authority and integrity to Federal Court of Australia decisions?

The lack of transparency doesn't help the situation. Clark is unwilling to come out and give an explanation to what occurred, and everyone seems to tiptoe around the issue. All we've been told is some vague medical advice stipulating Clark "needed a fresh start away from the MFC." Basically leaves upset supporters to reach their own conclusions; never a good idea.

Le Grand has written extensively about the doping scandal and most of what he's produced has read as if it came straight out of the Essendon Football Club storybook. I do love the reference to so-called "secret" talks. Nothing stays a secret very long in AFL circles except for things like the contents of the syringes which were injected into the veins of the Essendon players during the time when the doping scandal was unfolding. They're so secret that the Bombers don't have a clue what they were except for the fact that they can cure cancer. Le Grand was nominated for a Walkely Award for the crap that he's been writing on the subject which says something about the standards of journalism in this country. As for the secret talks, at least we now know where the story of the "two match" penalty came from and we can take a fair guess at the source of that particular leak. Of more concern is that if the AFL was involved in these talks with Gordon and Crameri's lawyers, it raises some disturbing ethical questions about the AFL bearing in mind that one of it's own tribunals is in the midst of sitting in deliberation on some serious allegations concerning an AFL club, its players and officials.

Well after spending the last couple of weeks in Vic, I've unfortunately been unable to railbird and report on any training. I did however manage to get into the Demon shop today (what a stupid fucken place to have it) and purchase various MFC paraphernalia to adorn myself with. Served by a lovely young lass too I must add. Back to WA I go where I shall look forward to us smashing the Dorkers in the NAB challenge. If it's not telecast and I'm not too intoxicated, I shall endeavour to report on the teams performance. Thanks to everyone who takes the time to type up any training report; some are better than others in many different ways but all are appreciated so please keep it up. So looking forward to this season, I reckon the Dee's are going to be the story of the year - all for good reasons. Ed: spealing

Big time win by Kyrigios against Seppi tonight. For a 19 year old to come back from 2 sets down is exceptional in a slam. If he can keep his head together he could be anything! I mean his backhand is nearly as good as mine!

I still remember Wright, Jacovitch and Jacko. Makes me think that we have had some of the most entertaining forwards in the AFL (even aside from the highly talented trio of Lyon, Neitz and Schwartz)!

S Martin would have been a good option when talking endurance and that ability to get to every contest. Wish we still had that option. That said I believe Fitzy had done some good rucking with Casey so he could be a legit second ruck/forward option.

After watching the replays of this year on foxtel, and it's something I've always believed anyway, I think Gawn has the potential to be a star. He is very mobile and clean at ground level for a bloke his sizzle. His tap work is good and improving and his contested marking is actually pretty good. I think max is already a better player than 3/4 of the starting ruckmen in the afl. And I think he ceiling is a lot higher than what we have seen so far. If fit, 2015 will be a huge year for Maximus.

Give it a rest mate

Which can be contested by ASADA/WADA and taken to CAS.

yeah....and there was jack viney and ollie wines..................oh wait a minute

I reckon there's three great stories out of this year's draftees: 1. Petracca & Brayshaw, great mates and both drafted to the same club, 2. Stretch & Neal-Bullen, great mates and both drafted to the same club, and 3. Our fifth draftee, McDonald, being drafted to the same club as his brother. I suppose the first one (Petracca & Brayshaw) was always a fair chance. But, the odds of the other two was pretty remote, especially given both Neal-Bullen and McDonald were expected to go a fair bit earlier in the draft. To be drafted is clearly a real thrill. To end up at the same club as your good mate must make it even more special! It's happened a few times before. Jetta & Bennell, and Trengove & Tapscott are a couple of other recent examples. Seems to recall Watts was also good mates with one or both of Blease and Strauss. Just a bit of a feel good story, I guess.

A good bunch of midfielders can make any ruckman look like a gun, and conversely, make the oppositions ruckman look terrible. Max Bailey was never much of a player but the Hawks mids worked well with him. If he was at the Dee's for instance during his time at the Hawks, it would've been a different story. Our midfielders have improved and hopefully our clearance work follows on from that. Gawn being the tallest and now much stronger should be our best option moving forward. He has a much better footy brain than big Jake and is less prone to doing silly things that cost the team badly. It will be interesting to watch Jamar this year. He's fit and ready to fire so don't be surprised if he gets an extension beyond the completion of his contract this season. Geez, most of were in utter disbelief when his last 3 year contract was given and that seems like ages ago now. I guess Pedersen is the other forward/ruck option that might get around and jump a little bit more this year after shedding a few kilos. I think we're okay compared to some of the other clubs.

Players issued with infraction notices will generally step away from competition as part of provisional suspensions, however the sporting bodies involved have discretion which allows them to play. Essentially it is the player's choice, although I understand they need the AFL's permission. Hence EFC small forward Cory Dell'Olio, and former Bomber Nathan Lovett-Murray were cleared to play in the NTFL. However this could be an issue if a ban is imposed as the player gets credit for time served under provisional suspension. Watson and Fletcher played in the International Rules gave, and if they cop a ban they could be out a month or so longer than others.

Gawn needs to work on his contested marking if he is to become a legitimate forward ruck option. Get both of those dukes in the air, Maximus. King is the best kick out of any of them. Skillful big men should be persisted with. He just needs to add some size.

Apart from the centre bounce where rucks have an exclusion zone, they really cannot provide any hitouts to advantage around the ground like they used to. Mids are too well trained and taggers don't give their opponents any room. When at Sydney, Roos instructed his rucks to bring the ball to ground at their feet, so that their superior mids could do something with the ball in a contested situation. So the role of rucks has become minimal in a game. They become a useful tool when they drop into the forward line and stretch the opposition. But that goes at both ends of the ground, so the opposition can stretch you when they are in possession. I often wonder when a coach will give up with a big man at the centre bounce to get another real ball getter in there. As to the question posed, Gawn is the only long term prospect we have, with the trend to the tallest possible to do the job. And he can mark the ball above his head, and kick the thing as well....unlike Spencer.

IMO this second goal should've gone close to winning GOTY

If you mean the Turkish wrestling position you're on the wrong thread.

You are not just a great photographer, ThreeOnesix. And I'm going to go with Jnrmac on this one after having watched some of our very good quarters this year on Fox recently and knowing that our players are a year older and understanding the game plans and what is required of them, I don't think we are that far off. Kicking 6 in a row against Port or those consecutive goals against Essendon shows me there is something there - just gestating. Even the most intelligent posters get sucked in to seeing things from how they were in the previous year. In fact in the Daniher years of making the 8 on alternate years our price for the 8 was a generous $4.00 or thereabouts after not making it the previous year. (Not worth placing a bet after those years we did make the 8.) Factoring in the fact that I don't understand how footy has changed so much in that time, though I know it has, I still think that $13 for the Dees to make the 8 is pretty good at the moment. I've had a nibble Two of our main Onballers this year will have more than 20 games under their belts at the beginning of the season which they didn't have last year. With our now well heralded additions I think this could kick in to start making a real significant change creating perhaps the introduction of those arrogant/confident qualities that teams have when they just all become fascinated with how good they could become; you can just feel the difference in that vibe. Oh, and knowing how early draft picks have had genuine input over the last few years I can see either or both Petracca or Brayshaw who only missed out on being drafted by a week or two the previous draft, and with their developed bodies, won't influence games this year. Just sharing where my dreams are coming from.

Both Harmes and Hogan came to the defense of Clark, making it crystal clear they were just joking and still mates, after some heroes jumped in to give Clark a gobful. It's petty, it's ugly, it's bloody ignorant and it's really tired already... Lets all just move on gracefully. *if only

I'm finding myself agreeing with everyone thus far, which perhaps points to there not being one single most important position. Midfield as a collextive unit is clearly most important, but you only have to look at our side over the past few years to see how important a quality "quarterback" can be. In terms of single position, CHB and CHF are well up there. Regarding the ruckman fading in importance, whilst true to an extent, the inclusion of Mumford to GWS had mamor ramifications for their young midfield. They looked a different side and suffered when he was out injured, A quality ruckman can still make a big difference. For all of Russian's shortcomings around the ground, he's the one I want in the middle at present because he at least gives our working class midfield first opportunity.

It's the way they do business 'Jack'. Integrity and the AFL are very strange bedfellows...

The AFL Tribunal is hearing the case. Yes, ASADA is effectively acting as the prosecution. My point is that it is completely inappropriate for the AFL to be conducting back door negotiations in these circumstances.

The odds are for premiership. Would you be silly enough to back them at any odds.

I agree. I cannot believe they have been allowed to continue to train. I can only assume the AFL has approved the training because it involves almost a whole team out of competition. I think any suspension should start from the day they stop all involvement, but not sure it will happen that way unfortunately.

If the infraction notices are being adhered to they wouldn't be allowed to attend training as per Ahmed Saad. So I don't see how there could be any backdating as they haven't been operating under the infraction notice to date....

Better yet, the club should just buy the royal on punt road. Match day experience.

somewhere to hide tissues maybe?

I really hope that if the players get suspended, it's for the entire season, not for only part of the season. If the players are suspended for say half the season, you'll have some teams playing Essendon at full strength, while other teams could play them with a bunch of state leaguers which would mean an automatic 4 points just for showing up. The entire season will be compromised, even ruined.

There's a substantial amount of evidence there to build up what is a circumstantial case against the players and officials of the Essendon Football Club and most of these aspects have been discussed from time to time through the pages of this and previous threads here on Demonland and elsewhere. The gathering of this sort of evidence has to be painstaking and laborious and explains why we're nearly two years down the track and only now seeing a distant light at the end of the tunnel. The players have already suffered pain and there's more on the way irrespective of the AFL Tribunal outcome: their reputations as clean sportsmen will be tarnished because of the clear cover up and the absence of records of what they ingested during the programme.Those who planned and perpetrated this disgrace should be run out of the sport.

I would say that Goddard and Del both went for what they thought were premiership tilts. The bombers blew up on Goddard and Del is still in the race but I can't see him getting there. Daisy got a great offer to join his mentor. The delusional Carlton people would have you believe they are a legitimate contender, I would say that is for the spoon.... I don't know if we can offer more money than other clubs but wouldn't want to anyway.

funny, i don't remember any of those players anyone know where the east melbourne cg was? i suspect the 20+k crowd was a sellout

Talking about our past glory is SO depressing Hawthorn has WON 11 since our latest one, which is enough to make you top yourself

20,181 is a Crapp crowd.

I think it's pretty clear, Jones is easily Melbourne's best player and any surprise packets will need to step up a long way to have an impact for Melbourne.

what a bizarre comment - have you got on the gas early or something? so you watch 2 minutes of footy (footage that just shows a bunch of blokes running around reveals absolutely nothing BTW) and your conclusion is that we have 43 rubbish players on the list seriously dude wtf

Don't know about the pets, but the Collingwood Football Club gets a higher average IQ out of the deal.

Oh thanks for that. I have been on the internet in one form or another since the 1990's in various parts of the world, so i think i can outlast a self-important individual on here. It would be nice though to debate the issues. I live in hope.

I know preseason training reports is when you think you shine, but I'd rather not see your name every third post. Thanks.

I find it really interesting on this site that if there is disagreement that the "go to" stance is personal abuse, rather than debate or argument based on information. I am quite prepared to admit i am wrong, but be buggered if i am going to yield to someone who has no better argument than, what did you say again, "twaddle". Congratulations on you sophisticated analysis