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Liam has my support too, as have all former Demons bar Voldemort and that oaf who likes doing wheelies and now plays for Carlton. One of my favourite recents who left us is Aussie - a good bloke who also had to face tragedy and ultimately found life here too hard. I wish him and Liam well and, though their time at the club wasn't the most successful, I still remember and thank them for the excitement they added to the place in difficult times. And I don't ask for any thanks from either of them in return.

That's unknown. If we defeated Richmond they would have finished last and had first pick and we would have had second pick. It's unknown whether Richmond would have selected Scully, Trengove or Martin at pick one and therefore whether Scully or Trengove would have been taken by us at pick two. As Jose and Clint point out - what is known is that Scully was the priority pick - not Trengove. The priority pick went to GWS and we got 2012 pick 4 and 14 in compensation - that's what has to be weighed up in the "tanking" debate - not Trengove.

Let's channel our hate to the Keros, Pieriks and Clarks of the world instead

Move on with your life, you'll feel much better for it rather than playing the gilted ex girlfriend every time his name is mentioned.

Here it is and written only as Martin Flanagan can - Farewell a friend for life Football is about more than the politics and the million dollar footballers. As Flanagan reminds us, it's also made up of hundreds of thousands of people including the fans and the humble doorkeepers and bootstudders who all have a stake in the sport. I only wish that some of his colleagues understood that so we could appreciate more the roles of great people like Arthur and their contribution to the game.

Only Lynden Dunn could cop an elbow to the head and be blamed for it.

Round 1 2012 haunts me and will for a long time. I thought we would be up for the game with all the motivation needed and the fact we were playing Brisbane at the G. That one hurt a lot. Probably because it was made crystal clear that we suck. I fear for my mental health if we go down to port round 1. I have children MFC and a wife who all need my pay cheque. For the love of god get it done.

I have nothing but well wishes for them and that mess of a situation.

I wish LJ, his community and mentors all the best. Too many people trying to sit in judgement when they don't know the facts.

I agree with others about Tommy Mac. He looks exceptional at the moment. He defended really well and is still rebounding like he did. He's just a fantastic runner with great judgement and a really good size. I was impressed with Clisby. He was clean in defence and carried the ball really well. Gave some good overlapping run from deep, which is what we need to move the ball quickly. I don't want to throw more petrol on the Viney fire, but he makes it hard not to. Towards the end there was a drill with the forwards and midfielders involving stoppages. It seemed very much to be an A-team vs B-team in the midfield, with just an A-team setup up forward. It was Jamar, Jones, Jones, McKenzie, Viney, Grimes vs Spencer, Evans, Magner, Couch and Taggert (IIRC) in the midfield. The forwards were Dawes, Pedersen, Fitzpatrick, Davey and Tapscott. They were set up like an X (20 metres apart) with Dawes in the middle about 30 metres from goal, Pedersen and Fitz playing deeper, but separated, and Tapscott and Davey playing higher (about 40 or so metres out) but spread out. The stoppage was won and then kicked forwards (either quickly under pressure or measured if they get space) where one of the talls knocked the ball down for a small to run onto the ball. With the running, they did repeat sprints with Misson in groups over about 30 metres. There were different targets for different players: a B cone, an A cone and an A+ cone (each one about 3 or so metres past the last - ie, Bs did 30m, As did 33m and A+ did 36m). In the midfielders group the A+ group were Grimes (who was ultra impressive), Jones and Viney. One thing about the drills is that there was a marked improvement from last year with the intensity. Especially defensively. The pressure that was placed on the ball carrier was very good and there seemed to be a lot of drills done to emphasise this. The match simulation had some turnovers, but a lot of that was to do with the defensive intent of the defending team. It was good to see, and easy to notice that the players genuinely value the defensive aspect.

Everything is methodical, and meticulously planned at MFC training these days. A whistle blows and coaches shout, players move hastily, bibs are exchanged, balls are dropped. Everything is done for a reason. Dave Misson stands on the sideline looking at his watch. He blows his whistle when a drill has gone the required amount of time. Have we finished that drill, Misso, or is it half time? bellows Aaron Greeves. Were done! he screams back. My highlight of today: It was a match simulation incident. A ball was kicked in the air to Ro Bail who looked like he would take a comfortable mark. Lynden Dunn came from nowhere to execute a spoil, landing on top of Bail in the process. As Dunn was getting up, he pushed Bail back to the ground. Bail didnt like it, so before you knew it they had grabbed each other around the neck. It got quite serious when Dunn gave Bail a jumper punch to the chin. Dunn finally had the sense to release Bail, and as he did that Bail gave Dunn a decent elbow to the back of his neck. The two continued to play on each other with Dunn giving his usual elbow to Bail in the guts and back. Finally someone was sent out by Neeld to tell Dunn to pull his head in. It really did quite heated. My observations: - No Frawley, Clark or Trengove today. Gawn did his own running and skills session separate to the main group. D-Rod had the session off and helped Gawn do some skills work. Every other player took part in the main session. - There was a match simulation exercise. It was white jumpers versus blue. It was scrappy and I was disappointed by the amount of times kicks failed to find targets going into the forward-line, and by the number of times the ball was coughed up with indiscriminate handballs, resulting in a turnover. - Toumpas had no trouble finding the ball. He used it pretty well too. He did get caught a couple of times. (Hes adjusting to the pace of the game at the higher level.) And he ran out of steam pretty quickly. (Again, this is to be expected.) I think hell need some good NAB Cup form to have any chance to play round one. - Tom McDonald beat any forward he played on. He was just too good for them. Dawes, Sellar or Pedersen would start ahead of him on the lead, and he would get in front of them and execute a spoil. Tom was good at ground level and used the footy really well. BOG for mine. - Matt Jones looks a player. He is quick, a good size. He makes good decisions with the footy. Matt just needs to put some size on. - Shannon Byrnes never wastes the footy. He spends most of his time lurking in the forward line. (He gets to dangerous positions when the ball hits the ground from a marking contest.) - Jack Grimes won a heap of the footy through the midfield. He is moving well. In my opinion he must start in the middle. - Jesse Hogan has great hands. He looked a bit lost in some of the drill, but he marked strongly and was very good below his knees. The kid doesnt fumble. - James Strauss really impressed me. He looks fit, and most importantly for him, his body language and voice is very positive out there. Strauss takes the game on. He is quick, and he was happy to get physical with defenders he manned up today. He might surprise a few. -The players are a vibrant, enthusiastic group who are working hard to improve. They continually encourage each other, but are happy to give out constructive criticism to each other when required.

there's already a thread on this, it's called the demonland forum

It's good to know that Liam is getting support at the time he most needs it. Well done Bruce and one can only hope that this is only one of many steps to bring some peace and harmony back into the lives of the people of the Yuendumu community. Liam Jurrah gains support in hour of need.

Thanks BLWNBA. I never miss the AFL Prospectus. It's a mine of information even if (like me) you're not into all that dream team stuff. Their assessment of our list sounds reasonable although I wonder where they put Nathan Jones in the midfield mix (not in the top 35% of midfielders???). Obviously, we have the capacity to improve dramatically with more unknown factors (including the influence of the coach) than any other club. Because of the massive list changes between September '12 and now, we are going to be the most unpredictable team in the competition. Therefore, if all goes well for us (e.g Viney & Toumpas living up to our expectations and a couple of players lifting a la Dayne Beams), we could rise up higher even than their predicted 13th.

The thing about Trengove is that he has always been a very physical player. As a junior he played as a physically dominant player who would throw others around. In AFL he hasn't been able to do that because he's been a kid. But that's not his style. As he gets bigger he'll be better able to play the style of game that he naturally plays. Very similar to what happened with Hayes, who has been getting better and better as he's matured. Trengove is no speed demon, but he'll be a really good player once he is physically able to play his natural game.

To answer your first question, anyone who reads this is a MFC tragic, therefore is by necessity a masochist :-)) Just put it all behind you and look forward to a massive improvement in 2013, now that Neeld, Missen and Craig have had a year to stamp their authority, purge the list and bring in people of character with strong bodies and minds.

Agree Cowboy and what made it even worse was the train ride home during which I encountered the only Brisbane Lions fan I know and he was so bloody patronising, I nearly jumped off the train between stations. He did mellow towards the end of the ride when he conceded the conditions favoured his team because they trained in the heat all the time and that Simon Black was in outstanding form in the middle all day but yeah ... the writing was on the wall early for us and it foreshadowed the early end to any chances we had for the season. We have to be at the absolute top of our game in round one this year and we must give Port an absolute bath. Being the eternal optimist, I reckon we can do it.

No, it's about doing research and fact checking.

Back at work yesterday for the first time this year so I left the reading of this thread till this morning and I wasn't disappointed. Thanks for the terrific contributions from those who made it to the session and reported on it here. There were some terrific insights and I'm looking forward to attending my first pre season session on Monday. I won't even bother taking my camera because I couldn't match waynewussell's work - thanks. I'm glad they're going around on Monday because I've long regarded Australia Day as the date on which we farewell the tennis and the cricket and well and truly enter the run towards the start of the footy. The fact that I've grown a bit disenchanted with those two sports makes the anticipation of the football season even greater, especially since I'm looking forward to great improvement from the Demons in 2013. These reports have been helpful but it will be great to see for myself first hand exactly how the blokes are travelling. There have been some glowing reports here but I've heard from some others that they don't believe our skills have improved all that much. I guess we'll find out soon enough when the real stuff starts but Monday's still a big day for me.

Pick 1, used on Scully, was the priority pick. And it was in The Age. And so far, whilst they said some will connect Trengove to tanking, and weigh his potential against any penalty, Murnane is the first to do so. Under the cowardly and mischievous guise of "others will compare..." as he introduces the very concept himself.

"Jack Trengove who burst onto the scene in 2010 and averaged 19 disposals in a manner that began to justify the club's decision to use its now-controversial priority pick to secure him." If they can't even get the basic facts right, how am I supposed to believe them when it comes to bigger issues?

Once again they set things up to avoid selling memberships or letting the fans have a look at their team working. Whoever schedules these things for the club needs to taken out behind the change rooms and shot.

Just wanted to add that it was great to see Swooper Northey chatting to Todd Viney and Darren Flanigan when I got there. Northey had the same red and blue striped tie as Todd, so I wonder if there was some sort of breakfast that he'd attended.

Those that I didn't see, or didn't join main training - Frawley, Trengove, Clark, Rodan, Gawn As usual, training started with the entire squad pairing up and doing short kicks between two players, that gradually became longer kicks, before players then spread over the ground with kicking weighted to where your opposite ran. In the main the kicks were good, but the usual culprits hit the deck too often. Toumpas and Tapscott stood with their superb kicking, but plenty of others kicked really well. Lots of handball drills with an emphasis on running in numbers, which typically included a group of 3. This drill determined that two players held tackle bags and a group of 3 players had to bypass them. There were two main groups doing this. I noticed that the receivers had a bit of space between them, which I liked, as too often players get sucked into a contest only for the opposition to throw it wide and get on the outside. It was short, sharp and looked pretty slick. Next they had two stoppage drills happening simultaneously at either end of the ground, which was basically the entire group split into two. Each group had players evenly divided either wearing blue or white singlets. One group had to work it out of congestion through handball before spotting up a target 40 metres away. Lots of pressure/tackling and plenty of turnovers, but also a few clean take aways, which were subject to applause from their teammates. On to the full ground circle work type drill where the ball starts in defence, is usually switched, but wasn't always, and worked forward by kicks, overlapping handball receivers and hard running, before trying to hit a target close to goal. In the main it was done well, but there's still room for improvement with the overall skill level. And finally there was match simulation between white and blue, plus use of the interchange, but usually only two players off at any one time. There were no AFL umpires and the ball wasn't thrown up in the middle, but it would start with a ruck duel and it was predetermined who out of Spencer, or Jamar got the hit-out to give either blue or white first use. There were some good passages and some ordinary ones. There were some good skills and there were turnovers. The pressure was good and there seemed to be far more understanding of each player's role compared to last year. Lots of emphasis on decision making. Lots of tackling and pressure. I've definitely noticed a higher quality in the tackles of late. The work put into correct technique is paying dividends. Magner, Nicholson, MacDonald, McDonald, Sellar, Evans, Dunn, Watts, Jetta all missed targets that resulted in turnovers and even Toumpas and Terlich had a bad one. Get used to turnovers in AFL footy, but there's still much to like with the way the ball is now being moved. I won't list all of the players, but want to highlight 5, although I thought Tapscott, Sylvia, Jetta, and Grimes also trained well. I'm reluctant to mention Viney, because it seems he's singled out every week, but he was in everything, kicked beautifully, made good decisions and was a stand-out. His only blemish was slipping over when trying to play on after a mark and getting caught. The rain had a small effect on the conditions late in the session. Barry excites me every time I see him. His class and movement just slaps you in the face. He's a good kick, a really smart player, quick, and just doesn't fumble. Terlich has a knack of reading the play. He gets by himself and constantly gets the ball. He uses it well and looks to have a cool head. He's no superstar, but one of those reliable defenders that mops up. Taggert trained really well. I noticed him more than I had previously and I liked what I saw. He's tall, strong, moves well and is a good kick. It was a toss of the coin with Viney, but my stand-out today was Matt Jones. Like Taggert, he's tall, quick, balanced and a beautiful kick. At 25 he's ready to go. Where Magner dropped marks and butchered a number of kicks Jones' skills shone. I understand that supporters will be skeptical about a guy that was playing at Box Hill and overlooked by Hawthorn and everyone else over the years, but I can only comment on what I see and he looks a real find.

I find it hard to believe there are not measures in place to avoid anything like this happening. Either make it more visible by placing a larger cone on it or something FCS. After Tapscotts injury you would've thought a thorough risk assessment of this type of hazard was completed.

Live training reports, how spoilt are we!

Spoke to Dom the other day and he said that he currently weighs 70kg with a long term goal to get to 80kg. Has already put on 4kgs since being drafted. Also told me that the coaches want to get at least 1 game into him this year for his development. This kid has a smart head on his shoulders and is way beyond his 18 years of age. He is actually related to Amos Frank from the hawks. At 183 cm and lighting quick skills I'm expecting big things from Dom.

Make mine a Melbourne.

... and the lesser lights will always sound stupid too ...

And kudos to our TAC Cup commentator Stevo who noticed Barry during last year's finals and had this to say in his preliminary finals report back in September:

Barry was very highly rated by Shifter (draft commentator). It wouldn't suprise me if we could've got Hogan for just pick 3 but instead the club swindled pick 13 in the deal for Barry and 20. At the end of the day, it's unlikely the club would've taken Barry at 13 and our next pick after Viney wouldn't have landed Barry. He would've been already gone. I agree with others that he probably won't be ready this year.

I just wish they would lock this clown up. I am absolutley ropable that he is still out in society, he constantly puts peoples lives at risk. He needs to be locked away. - Tries to kill relative with a machete. - Drink drives with a huge consumption of alcohol running through him putting society at risk. Why people show Jurrah compassion is beyond me.

Gee, a Hawthorn reject: maybe we have another Brett Lovett in the team!

For those interested, some MFC stuff, including snippet from today, on YouTube. Just search waynewussell.

I think the older draftees like Byrnes, Rodan, Terlich etc have been brought in for quite a specific reason. Sounds obvious I know, but I've often discussed this theory in relation to Australian cricket as it was and as it is now. My theory was that, while we had great players, it highlighted the importance of having a very strong second tier. How good was Martin Love to only play one test!? The result is that talent wasn't relied upon and second group really pushed the talented players to another level. It's not necessarily even a conscious thing, but talent is maximized due to natural competition. Hope that makes sense. As for cricket now, there doesn't appear to be that really strong second tier, but perhaps it's been being developed through that awful rotation policy. Another story. I suspect Melbourne hasn't had an environment like that for a number of years, where it is ultra competitive. Guys like Rodan, Brynes and the rest will do wonders for the likes of Tapscott, Watts, Blease etc who have natural ability but haven't really had to compete for a spot like this.

Yes, 13thFlag is right, Jimmy continued in the full match-play activity. He was feeling the intensity and may have had a bit of a niggle. I left at 11:15 due to parking restrictions. The match play activity was very impressive. We will be using a fast, play on, follow up, play the wings style which relies on high level delivery. We will come unstuck when kicks are poorly directed, BUT... It will look fantastic when in full flight. Expect rapid movement sweeping down the wings and surges of quick scoring, coast to coast. That's what they are training for! Propping, stopping and being indecisive is out! There was so much to be impressed by, I hated leaving early. Viney is ready! He sticks like glue when chasing and is a master of repeat efforts. Dawes will add speed, and kicking distance to the forward line. Pedersen will be valuable, particularly while Mitch is recovering. I noticed Matt Jones more today he seemed right at home and kicks well. Nathan Stark has speed carrying the ball and reminds me of Barts. Nathan Jones was excellent in match play. By the way, the tackling was intense and several players were bought to the ground with a thud. Dunn ran into McKenzie at full speed and left No13 struggling for breath. Davey was good. Hogan contested well but on most occasions was spoilt by the intense back pressure. Sylvia, Grimes, Strauss and Tapscott (playing half forward) all took part in the full scale match play. I will add more plus photos a little later.

Full on running ball out of defense activity under way at both ends of ground Watts Garland Jones excelling at one end Great tackles by Jetta and McKenzie Watched Toumpas and Viney at other end Jimmy evasive but nailed by bigger bodies a few times and slightly injured after slipping on sprinkler cover Davey his old self in this group Pederson very good Chris Dawes with scorching pace on the lead Viney seems very capable in traffic

Also at training They started at 9:45 Only blokes not sighted are Frawley, Trengove and Clark. Toumpas, Bail & Sellar are doing a kick and lead activity, Gawn and Roden are hand balling Everyone else is in the main group who are doing the circular handball under pressure activity in smaller groups Lots of voice and enthusiasm The Invisible Man is here!

Only just returned a few days ago and listened to the Neil Craig interview for the first time. BB59's assessment of the interview is spot on and our gain is Adelaide's loss! (Also with Neeld and Misson respectively, it is Collingwood and St Kilda's loss!). I am really looking forward to 2013 with these guys on board and the playing list.

Personally i would rather see Fitzy than Garland standing in for Clark as he can also help out in the ruck (at 200cm). I don't like the idea of players who have been training with the backline group moved forward to cover for Clark (as we did with Garland and Rivers last year). We have much more depth at both ends this year and (touch wood) less injuries. If anybody is to move, I would rather see a considered long-term strategy as we did (successfully) last year in moving Watts from the forward structure to the backline.

Well it must be true then. Have never seen so much shiite written about any footballer in my lifetime. Don't see it about Scully, dont see it about Patten, don't see it about Kruezer. Give it rest you muppets. He plays for Melbourne. Its a new season. Try just supporting him as a 21 year old.

Should we tank this year - matter of definitions. Aaron Davey and Frawley are two good examples. If the season is completely gone,shot and horrible by mid year ( as opposed to us having improved and whilst not winning every game being competitive and in good positions to beat most) and Aaron Davey is going just ok - I have no problem with Neeld marking his card that he wont be around next year so get a kid into play instead. If the season is shot and we cant buy a goal, Clark and Dawes are out injured - I have no problem with trying Frawley as a one out full forward. In a season when we are on the rise and "in" most matches, would you drop Davey or play Frawley at full forward - probably not. But when the season is shot we might unearth a kid by playing him earlier in Aarons spot and Frawley might turn out to be our next 100 goal full forward. Is this tanking ? Is winning every game paramount - absolutely, but by doing the above moves you would have to think that this is not conservative coaching and is higher risk/high reward but probably lessens our chances of winning. Whilst our team is developing I would still opt for the above - rather than have an average Aaron Davey running around. Note - I am only using Aaron as an example and would love him to tear it up this year

Excellent post.

Not sure why people continue the basketball speak when talking about Jack. He played as much football as he did basketball growing up. Happy for Hawkins to show a bit last year after dealing with his share of haters. As long as Jack continues improving I'll be happy. Bit of a different in the two but so not much point in comparing. Hawkins as always been a physical player as a junior, crunching people in his way. Obviously everyone was his size when he made it with the big boys so it was always going to take time to build more strength and regain his confidence. Also, Tom also would have been walking a couple inches taller looking around and seeing Mooney, Chappy, Stevey J and Jpod around him knowing if he cops some stick he will be protected. Who did Jack have when he began? Have a look at the 2009 Demons list, he would have walked into a forward line containing the intimidating figures of Robertson, Bate, Green and Maric. Enough to keep any opposition backman sleepless the night before. Jack was taller and silky as a junior playing a variety of spots. He never imposed himself on games like a Carey or Brown however he dominated them with his speed and agility. Everyone had this dream we were getting a Carey or Brown player but he was never going to play like these two. The ridiculous expectations we put on him people believe he is soft. Continually jumping back with the flight intercepting marks in front of opposition players is not soft. He isn't physical or intimidating but he is not scared to have a go. Disappointing as a number 1 draft pick he maybe to some but he was clearly the best player at the time. We would have been crazy not to pick him. Come on Jack! Prove your doubters wrong!!

He will need to build match fitness and the only way is playing but will need to come in with a good level of fitness to start with. The game these days doesn't allow anyone the luxury of playing out of the square, defenders will take advantage and run him into the ground. Your caveat was his training to ramp up soon, if it doesn't and they are being conservative there is no way he will play to build up his fitness base.

*insert tanking reference here*

Why would this upset a few at AFL house?

Lot of mids there which is good for us.