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No to your first question and it wasn't a "barb" either but rather a fact that poor behaviour on the part of our footballers, especially involving alcohol is not defined by a person's colour or creed. To single out indigenous players for opprobrium when clearly the behaviour you described is also a problem with others comes within my definition of racism and further, I have to add that not saying so is dishonest and to describe people who acknowledge this as "ignorant" is shameful. That is not to say that some indigenous players don't have issues related to their circumstances but I believe by and large that the AFL is doing a terrific job with its educational programmes and the employment of prominent persons as role models for their communities (however, like some others I do have a problem with Jason Mifsud's role at the AFL). People are always quick to mention the few who might go "off the rails" but you can't help but be impressed with the contributions of Chris Johnson, Michael Long (the bump on Troy Simmonds notwithstanding), Adam Goodes, Michael O'Loughlin and our own Aaron Davey. I can go beyond the "stars" and talk about Isaac Weetra who was briefly on our list a few years ago and who I had the pleasure of meeting when he was at the club. A more intelligent and articulate young man, you would never meet and I doubt that he would ever do wheelies in a private school car park, consort with known criminals, get arrested twice on an overseas trip, dump on his former club, pee on a night club counter at 3am or become a self-confessed alcoholic (all of these are problems that require help as well). Instead, he was just one of now well over 200 indigenous footballers, the majority law abiding citizens despite their tragic history in this land, who played the game at the elite level. And I wouldn't be throwing around statistics about the decline in their numbers because of the official figure of three indigenous players drafted and one redrafted in the 2012 AFL draft. These figures don't take into account three indigenous players taken as NT pre-draft selections Jed Anderson (Hawthorn), Jake Neade (Port Adelaide) and our own Dom Barry as well as rookies Brett Goodes (Bulldogs) and Zac Williams (GWS). The numbers might be down marginally but still well above the proportion of indigenous in the general population. Everything I've heard about Dom Barry and the way he's settling in at the club has been positive. The story of Jed Anderson who has done it tough is quite inspirational - Hawks snap up Thunder's Anderson It's a pity that people jump at the opportunity to accentuate the negatives but never look beyond what they want to see. Most of the time the answer is a matter of education and learning. Let's just hope that Harley Bennell learns his lesson from the past week or so as do Jeremy Howe and the Bay 13 boys. None of them are hardened criminals. They're all young men who have lots to learn from life irrespective of the pigmentation of their skins.

I was in Melbourne from Sydney, so I went down to watch. The term "The Sound of One Hand Clapping" came to mind. I was the only person watching other than a Herald Sun photographer looking for the players who were ejected from the MCG at the Cricket. Seriously, get a life - it was after all, only the first and second year players. There were only nine players there. Apparently it was meant to be eleven but Jack Viney and Jimmy Toumpas couldn't change their flights. Go figure. I got there at 9.30am and they were already training, they walked off at about 10.40. Jesse Hogan was doing agility running, then just laps on his own, then sat out the final stages of the training. I asked him how he was finding it and he said "Full on." Looked a bit forlorn sitting there on his own. He had been in Perth with the family over Christmas, so I don't blame him. I know it's been said many times before but up close and personal he is a very big unit. Just hope we get a contract extension out of him when the time comes. The other eight players were the four rookies headed by Couch and Magner who was leading the group in the running drills closely shadowed by Dom Barry, who was the only other one in the group who looked like he had elite fitness. Couch wasn't keeping up with them which is interesting as he was a stand out last pre season. The two newest recruits, the rookies, Stark and Clisby were clearly struggling. Not surprising, you wouldn't want to come into this training so many weeks behind. At one stage one of them was passed by one of the coaches doing some of the laps with them. Not a good look. The group was doing some competitive hand ball games. Looked pretty scratchy but it is first day back. Then a lot of running. You need to see this up close to appreciate how hard these guys are working. It's hard. Magner had a good chuck in front of me. He was busting a gut, thats for sure. I will try to attach a couple of photos.

This is slightly off topic, but found it an interesting analogy to the journey that Neeld (and Craig) are trying to take the players/club/members on. Was watching some tv recently on the history of the St. Louis Rams (NFL) under coach Dick Vermeil and couldn't help but notice the similarities between the Rams and the MFC recent history. The Rams of the 90's were considered the worst team of the decade, with poor attitudes to training by the previous coaches and players. Enter a new coach (Vermeil) in 1997 who changed the players mindset by training them harder than they thought possible. Vermeil wasn't interested in results during his first couple of years (and it showed with 2 very poor seasons), but in developing players who would give their all regardless of their ability. I see so many similarities here between what Craig and Neeld are trying to achieve. Vermeil went about recruiting players on attitude and competitiveness (with less emphasis on ability). He recruited 'recycled' players to change the culture of the club at the Rams. For example Kirk Warner (their quarterback in 1999 and the leagues MVP) was stacking shelves at a supermarket a couple of years earlier, having missed out on the draft yet decided to continue to puruse his dream by toiling away in a small indoor league. Whilst the players attitudes towards training, each other and Vermeil himself took time to change, the turnaround was remarkable. I found it an interesting fact that when the Rams won the NFL championship in Vermeil's 3rd year (1999), there were only 8 players on the clubs list from when Vemeil took over in 1997.The recent changes (14 new players this year) at the MFC, the recruitment of experienced players based upon their attitude and character and who are willing to 'buy in' to Neeld's plan and set an example, thus helping mould their teammates attitudes to training and playing, resonates to me as a similar strategy to the one used so effectively by Vermeil.

They've been in our system two minutes and you think it's a "worry" if they're presently struggling with a foreign AFL running program ? FMD.

I wasn't aware that there was such a thing as a "normal parking inspector"!

Exactly. What I don't understand is why the drafts aren't held before pre season training starts. Teams have a whole season to work out what drafting and trading they have to do, it shouldn't be necessary to leave it for so long. When you see the last recruits coming in so late and see how much they are struggling because they are in some cases two months behind the rest of the group, you have to wonder why the system is set up the way it is. It must be a hell of a shock to the system to come in at the beginning anyway but to come in two months after everyone else must be a shocker. Think about it, two weeks would be bad enough. On a lighter note. Dom Barry is a great looking athlete and was hanging on to Magner in the running drills pretty well. At one stage he decided to put the foot down and just took off leaving everyone else for dead. He's pretty light but he reminds me of Lewis Jetta and weight is no problem for him.

I'd like the team to move the ball in a much faster and fluent way . More use of the corridor (not necessarily the middle of the ground, the corridor these days is quite wide) . When we've got the ball we need to play much more instinctive football and become pro-active rather than re-active . More teamwork and spread is required and we have to make better position . Gut running and creating space is a non-negotiable . Our smaller forwards and crumbers must be able to work with Dawes, Clark and Pedersen . The team needs to continue on the path of 'accountable' footy with a big emphasis on the defensive skills of the game . We have to start winning the count in 'contested footy' , 'hard ball gets' and 'clearances' . Our list must be able to play the 'modern' game (the forward press and the defensive flood should start becoming 2nd nature) . Our kicking and general disposal skills has to improve quite a lot . It's a lot to ask but we need to do all that and lots more if we're going to start getting into contention . That's partly what I expect the whole football dept to have as their goal . It's not just about Neeld . Mark needs to have the coaching staff all on the same page and working as a cohesive unit .

Defence wins finals. If you want a coach that has run, spread, and carry at the top of its list go hire Dean Bailey, or Brett Ratten. Tough, accountable, defensive footy wins finals. The best teams have a balance of the two. And it doesn't matter whether you play at Etihad, the MCG, or the tiny SCG (hmm). What matters is recruiting players with the right character and skillsets, developing them properly in all facets of the game, and implementing a game-plan that stands up in the red hot cauldron of a grand final. Imo, Sydney don't win the GF without Lewis Jetta, but more importantly they don't get to the GF without their brilliant contested ball winning midfield.

McQueen I'd give up trying to defend myself to these hyper politically correct types, anyone with a bit of sense knows you're intentions weren't to be racist.

Which story by Wilson are we talking about here? The initial bilious article where she slagged off the club, CS and CC, or the later article where she backtracked about CC's comments (that they could have been said in jest). She also initially construed that Melbourne FC secretly met to discuss the 'tanking' at a special place called The Vault. This is another part of her story she later retracted in the subsequent article. An excellent point about her blind spot for Richmond too, and and again i raise the argument - if Melbourne were 'tanking' that day in 2009 (and still leading at full time), what on earth were Richmond doing?!!!!! If they'd lost that match, and all other results for 2009 stayed in place, Richmond would have got the number one pick (and picked Scully haha) and the Dees would have lost their priority pick - finishing with 5 1/2 wins. Does anyone think that the Tigers were unaware of this possibility when they went into that match?

By the sounds of the MFC post the boys are all tip top shape. Maybe it is time that Sylvia took on a leadership role? Pre-season update: Sylvia to Blease

The big difference to our midfield this year is they are fit, besides Trengove they have all been able to put in good work prior to Christmas, they are healthy. You went to training last year besides Jones, most hadnt even joined the main group prior to Christmas, Sylvia, Grimes, Mckenzie, Tapscott are having good preseasons, you add in Viney and Toumpas, we will be a much better midfield this year

I have been reading these posts with great interest, and to WYL with due respect you seem to have have huge expectations and some lack of understanding where this club and side has come from, so I go back to when Misson first started and the fitness was way behind the data that he had, he has also stated (correct me if i'm wrong that this year has been ramped up around another 30%) so we are still behind the two sides that he has been in control of. Neeld and co have now set the club up after his first year the way a football club is supposed to be (i.e. the pies, geelong etc) and it will take a little more time before they become a constant football club but the building blocks are there, remember how long the cats took and the pies to reach it. The game plan will will incorporate run and carry tight defence and hard running but until the elite fitness kicks in core strengths become stronger and strong work ethics become the norm we will still have moments of going uhhhhhhhh but they will become less and less. We are on the right track and for the first time in a long time and you can smell it so be patient grasshopper.

My thoughts exactly - I have no idea of the strategy the MFC will adopt but my strategy would be to ask the AFL that if they are provide to the MFC the findings of their investigation we require very pointed and clear direction as to the AFL's expectations and intentions. If the AFL require a reply (which I am sure they do) I would ensure the AFL. 1/ Specify what evidence/finding they require an explanation of 2/ If the AFL require an explanation it must be because there is a thought that the evidence breaches a rule - what rule do the AFL believe has been breached ( the reason for this is anything that Connolly/Schwab have said cannot be charged under the rule that is limited to coaches and players) If it was me - I would not accept the handing over of a whole report of findings with a covernote from the AFL saying - "any comments" ? - thats just another fishing exercise. Edit Or you could answer their questions with questions of our own. For example - if we are asked to respond regarding playing players out of position. "Dear AFL - I am not sure how to respond to this or why all of a sudden list managment and experimentation has become tanking ? Firstly, clubs that cannot make the finals have been experimenting with player positions since Jesus was moved from fullback to fullforward playing for the Crucified first XVIII - We experiment with players in different positions in hope of finding a better structure for the next season ( Lynden "bad mo" seems to finally have found a place running off half back after trying him there at the end of this year). We could list lots of clubs that have done exactly the same thing that you now seem to have problem with us doing ...cough Carlton...splutter Richmond...hic WCE - but we wont do that but it should be noted that the AFL has investigated the practice of expermentation and found that it is ummm experimentation . Secondly your CEO addressed this very action earlier and even sympathised with our club CEO. Thirdly, this experimentation happened again this year with our backline all playing forward yet there was no mention of us tanking. Why is it alright this year but not a few years back....ummm..what was the question again ?"

<insert facepalm image here>

Is it just me or are the Brian Royal comments about as insightful as Today Tonight's latest exposay into 'Super Market Rip-offs'. At least from Brown and Rawlings you get a sense that the guys have a real feel and knowledge of the game and the players, Brian sounds like he just reads the stats from www.finalsiren.com.au and then adds the comment 'trains well'! I

I hope you aren't one of those fat old sleazy tourists who walk around in speedos and give Australians a bad reputation.

I heard a long interview with Chris Dawes on SEN with Tony Shebechi He sounds a great bloke. I can understand why Neeldy went after him Has nominated for the leadership group with the players backing. I hope we don't need that second bad year.

I'd like to see Sylvia lead on the field this year and have no more off-field indiscretions from now on and then I'd consider him for the leadership group. He must earn it, and if he does then I'd be more than happy to include him. If it was up to me of course

To be bloody competitive over 4 quarters and run out games which we havent seen for the past six years would be a start.

Apparently, Dom Barry is being hosted by someone who owns a cafe or a restaurant and who is not only looking after his diet and nutrition but also teaching him the finer points of cooking. Sounds like a good idea to me. Fills me with confidence that, unlike one recently departed player, he won't weight roughly what he weighs now in five years time.

If there is one question I would like to pose to Caro is if the information she apparently was given happened to be about Richmond would she have published it like she did with us. Her answer would be "dont be ridiculous" (her answer to everything when she is cornered) I bet she wouldn't have because everyone was doing it. One day when she is in her favourite wine bar in Armadale and I am feeling a little confrontational and she is a little bit "shickered" I might just ask her that question.

Who's dumb BH? Fan is not an anonymous poster somewhere out there in the ether who can disappear if he turns out to be wrong. Many of us know him and he's gone to great lengths to suggest that Wilson is usually right on the button with her source material (which is often the case) and he's done so to the point where he will be the subject of much ridicule if proven wrong. So my money is on the fact that Fan reckons she's going to be proven right. Of course, Wilson's editorial was largely an opinion piece in which she made known her poisonous views on one particular club, fully aware that others (including her beloved Tigers) were also involved in the same activities and in respect of which the AFL was doing nothing. Her very strong agenda against the club and two officials who she named was made clear and, though she would never divulge her sources, I have a feeling that these will be known in the fullness of time. In any event, I wouldn't be proud of ever endorsing such a person, nor would I come back to gloat about it.

Positively knee slapping, side-splitting humour Fan. I hope you keep the standard as high as this throughout the season, even when Caro writes her next piece suggesting that everyone working in any administrative capacity at the MFC during 2009 should automatically be arrested and charged under Section 34(b) of the Summary Offences Act 1958. But don't worry. We'll send the brief to Redleg or Rumpole. They'll fix things!

This month's compulsory last sentence for any journalists writing about Melbourne: "The Demons are in the process of responding to the AFL's tanking investigation."

Touched that you missed me Sloon. I overdosed on fair trade herbal tea at Biffen's expense and had a touch of the vapours. Then , when I came to, I read a couple of Stuie's recent comments and required medical attention to revive me. They medics called it a boredom induced trans ischaemic attack.

Maybe I am the only one here but I do follow the "ex-wives" - during the season I have a look after each match to see how they have fared. I cant let em go quite that easily just because they are no longer in the red and blue. I always hope they fare poorly against us but when it is not against the Dee's then I range from having wanted Brad Miller to kick on to Tom Scully getting kicked in the nuts.

I don't think you quite get it about words. It's not just semantics. Words affect lives, especially when they're used carelessly or as instruments of law, social categorisation and control and so on. And I don't dispute anything about the problems facing Indigenous youth (I know a lot more about these than you might guess). What I do know is that the way those problems are talked about and thought about matter. As for what I do and don't attend to in posts, we all have our different perspectives and expertises and enthusiasms, and one of the good things about a site like DL is how these can intersect and add to conversations and understandings. But you foreclosed on anything like that from you initial post so there's not much point in saying anything else.

...and this is another reason why his position needs to be reviewed. He seems to me to like playing political games and leaking to the media whilst not getting his hands dirty sorting out real issues. Rendell, the messenger was shot and Neeld on fabricated evidence hung out to dry. The quality of the indigenous footballers passed up and the total number selected in this years draft should be setting off alarm bells at headquarters but unfortunately they seem more about image than action.

I personally think Mcqueen has stated a fact and part of the fact involves indigenous footballers. Lets be honest the number of those recruited has dwindled and the reason probably needs to be looked at by the AFL. I know for a fact Mifsud never contacted Phil Smart of Swan Districts despite the well documented case of Dayle Garlett for two years. We can't hold back on speaking the truth for fear of being labelled a racist, that time has passed and the problems need to be addressed by everyone or we will get nowhere. There are to many people taking quids whilst holding positions within the AFL, ALS and other indigenous councils without really addressing the problems. The issue goes beyond footy and is across society, problems with indigenous youth are widespread and it is only natural they will flow into the AFL. Matty Rendell was hung out to dry for basically being honest. I fully understand where he is coming from why take the risk when other options are available. There is a difference in honesty and racism

I seriously doubt Neeld works on a calendar year. He would have started this year way before the season proper ended in 2012. What is pass mark on Neeld this year? 8 wins with improved efforts/games against the top 4 teams. If the team wins quaters or dominates periods of the game against the likes of Hawthorn, Collingwood, West Coast (in Perth) and Sydney, I'll be very happy. It means we can match it with best and we are heading towards a game plan that will stand up in finals. Consistency will come later on.

While Shannon Byrnes has brought some of that famed Cattitude to Melbourne, Rivers and Petterd have taken some of that famed steely Dee professionalism to Catland and Tigerland. Win. Win.

With our draw...I think we should expect a top 8 finish! How many free kicks do the AFL need to give us before we capatalise?

This is it. Mark Neeld must get results this year. He knows it, we know it. Second year of a three year deal, this will be the year that shapes him. The level of result is up for debate. But winning Quarters here and there or the odd stat count won't cut it for me anymore. It is about the amount of times the ball goes through the big sticks. Simple.

At the risk of stating the obvious " the boys are training the house down" Now there is something new for an off season. It has been heard a few times over the years. I will reserve my judgement until about 4.30 pm 31st March 2013

The genie is out of the bottle so Dumbetriou et al will have to do something. I'm hoping for a slap with a wet lettuce leaf- for being slipshod or incautious and then the AFL will re write and tighten up the rule for this thing called tankiing.

Well written and as much as I would like to see us in the 8 it is unlikely as the whole competition will evolve and improve further, not just us. Craig has said we will not reach the required fitness level until mid 2014 according to someone here who had a conversation with him. This is not Neeld's make or break year, this is part of a well structured plan and it won't hinge on wins or loses just yet. It was always fun listening to the Essendon people bagging Knights the Carlton crew Ratten, watch the golden boy (Hird) cop it this year if they have another fade out. I don't want to be one of those clubs. Yes they were successful and still believe their own spin about being winners but it's been a while now, like Richmond and our club, the in fighting has done a lot of damage. Having said all that I would hope to see the difference between our best and worst narrow substantially this year though.

Save your breath Neeter. Stuie doesn't get it !

i tend to agree. Taking the train a a short stroll is the go I reckon. HB btw

So much irony....

i know exactly where this club has come from 3165. I have been on the ride for many years. Maybe i just believe it is time the club took that Quantum Leap into the unknown so to speak quicker than others on here. I know where we have been & i know of the changes in philosophy since 186. As long as i can remember the MFC has always pooped itself at critical moments against the heavyweights. Always found an excuse. That's why i like Neeld. I don't think he wants to hear any of them. No reason why we shouldn't aim for the 8 this year.

Its hard to play the modern game when we had a 90s style coach in Bailey, people dont understand how far his regime set the club back, i went to the GWS game at the G last year and never forgot when Moloney refused to spread in the 2nd quarter, old dogs refuse to learn new tricks, hence why he was traded, i think Neeld and company will suprise a few in the AFL world this season, he now has a list that will follow instructions to the letter, just like Malthouse did, i think that 10 wins is well within our reach now that the bad eggs have been tossed aside. PS i like the thread Stuie.

I think you said what i said or wanted to say.(but in 200 words less - I gotta learn to be a little more concise )

Agree. You'd expect the AFL documents to contain tentative conclusions to be accepted or challenged. Otherwise its just more random information gathering

Yes - if there were a few throw away lines from Connolly in a weekly meeting - and if a few disgruntled former employees did make some incriminating statements - then she will be able to say that she was right ...................and Fan will feel vindicated.The key questions are whether or not these statements were taken out of context - and whether or not she happily reported on a biased selection of unrepresentative [censored]-bits which suited her agenda. Her keenness to draw premature conclusions is indefensible. From what you say about him , Fan ought to be big enough to admit that his obvious desire to antagonise his fellow supporters does him no credit

is this any help? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Melbourne_Football_Club_season#Squad_for_2011_season

Thanks for help staying in oakliegh so sounds like train might be the way to go Gary just my luck they will all be closed sessions or at casey

What if we have a bad year? A few injuries and lose a few close games? Who would coach us if we sacked Neeld? Who would want too? What would they do different? He needs more than 2 years to change the sh!t that we have been for the last 6 years, there will be KPI's but it couldnt be win/lose. I think he is the right man for the job if he is given enough time. Dont get me wrong I'd love to see more wins than losses but I think when Neeld took over we all agreed to take a journey... On the reality bus

Maybe you should take it as Jade not giving a sh!t about Boxing Day.I know I don't.

stop trying to hijack threads stuie - LOL